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On this particular deal? It really depends how the MOU is structured (assuming there is one), and how any NDA's involved are framed. It could be that the club and Society aren't legally allowed to discuss the intricate details of the deal. Barmack, for all that he's being active on P&B, isn't actually saying all that much of substance. I've been reading most of what he's posted, and the only takeaway that I've got from it all is that he's come to his valuation of our club by using a rough approach that involves what Newcastle United is worth and that he's trying hard to sell himself as an honest guy with our best interests at heart. Which may be true, by the way. I doubt it, though. In my experience of dealing with investors and VC over the past ten plus years I have found that these guys aren't coming in and burning through the one commodity that they treasure above all else, which is time, to pursue a deal where they don't get much upside. That's simply not how they work. I find it hard to believe he simply woke up six months ago and decided he wanted to work with the fan ownership group at a club he'd never heard of before, all to help said club consistently finish in the top six. There's an end game here. And that's not a bad thing in itself. But, I'd much rather work with an investor who lays it all out and says "This is what I'm proposing, and the reason for that is because the club will benefit in X way, and I'll benefit in Y way, then I can move on to the next investment opportunity a richer man, and leave you guys in a better position." Again, I'm only going by my experience, but when investors start talking about "enthusiasm," "working alongside ordinary supporters" and so forth, especially when that kind of language is used without an actual plan? It sets alarm bells off. At the risk of sounding like a bit of a prick, do fans really need to be able to under the technicalities of the following to know it's a bad deal? The plan that has been suggested at the moment, from what I can see, basically consists of the following: Barmack "invests" £1.95 million over six years. For this, he will receive 49% ownership, with 8% ownership from the beginning The Well Society has to invest £1.35 million over six years. For this, we will lose 25% of our shares. Barmack also becomes Chairman with the deciding vote in any tie. So, he invests £1.95 million to see an increase in shareholding to the tune of 49%, while we, the fans, invest an additional £1.35 million to lose 25% of our shareholding. I've never been involved in any business deal where that kind of thing is suggested. Ever. Why? Because it's ridiculous. In any normal business setting, it would be laughed out of the room, and the party suggesting it would be roundly ridiculed. Oh, and on top of the above, we also need to agree to write off 50% of our loan to the club to the tune of £434,000. That is money that fans, including pensioners and people who are not well off, have paid to the Society in good faith, by the way. Almost half a million pounds of our money, just written off. Gone. So, with all of that said, what do we get in return? A multi-page business plan that shows why we need him on board? An exciting vision of the future under his chairmanship? No. We get talk of "infrastructure and long-term strategic projects rather than short-term player acquisitions" and incredibly vague chit-chat about "increasing broadcasting revenue, seeking additional investors and utilising artificial intelligence." Do you want to know what I think? I think that the above would be considered derisory by any competent board in the world of business. But, Barmack has found a well-run entity that's involved in a league that is looking at an uptick in TV and sponsorship money coming over the next five or so years and has realised it's "fan-run." Which, in the mind of an investor and businessman from Los Angeles, as the club board keep describing him, means that it's run by simple folks who won't understand all the technicalities and who, in his likely view, are simply too fucking stupid to understand exactly what all this means. He wants the club on the cheap, and not only that, he wants us to actually pay for much of it. If you add in the money The Society would be losing on top of the contributions we'd need to make, it would actually mean that our total financial contribution over the six years would be £1,784,000 for the privilege of losing 25% of our shares, while he contributes £166,000 more than us over the same period for an increase in 48% of shareholding. You want an honest assessment? He thinks we're mugs. And sadly, going by some of the responses I've seen, he's correct to an extent. I always feared that while fan ownership is a good thing, it does leave us open to business predators who simply see an asset that is owned by a large group of people who, for the most part, aren't business-savvy. As he said today on P&B: "By the way, I think the offer has a better chance than many of you do -- if you follow politics closely, as I do, you can see examples on Twitter and message boards of a block that clearly don't like a proposal or politician, and are certain that their points are unanimous, only to see the quieter side of a voting block feel differently. As one touch-point, there was a poll on Twitter about our offer, and I believe it was 30 for / 70 against, and I think you have to consider a bit who's voting on a Twitter poll to realize that the fan-base might be more divided than this thread suggests. So, I'm not throwing in the towel." You're damn right he's not throwing in the towel. This could be one of the more lucrative deals he makes in years. Not because the club generates large sums of money but because he's basically securing a top-flight football club for less than the price of a three-bed house in Wishaw. I don't agree. The reason why he's pushing for this deal with us is because of the decision-makers and structure of the club. Could you imagine him going to someone like Roy MacGregor with an offer like this? Or even better, let's send him round to speak to Anne Budge and Hearts with a similar offer. So no, he knows that if he went to another club that was owned and run by someone from the actual business and investment world, he'd get laughed out of the building.

I'm not particularly having a go at you but the more he posts the more people seem to be impressed by it. It's like if a marketing company phone your house, the person might be friendly and engaging but they are doing it for money and trying to get something out of you. I just don't want to see a false equivalence created between Barmack and The Well Society. Everyone should remember he's a businessman trying to buy an asset at an undervalued price due to a bitter old man in his 70s having a tantrum. He's not talking to Motherwell fans because he enjoys the dialouge he's doing because it's potentially worth millions of pounds to his net worth and all he has to do is get enough Well Society members onside. It's about transferring the community owned wealth of our Well Society to a Californian millionaire. It's that simple.

Of course that's what he's doing, it's as transparent as the windows that Rangers fans enjoy licking during marching season. Where have I said that he's convinced me of anything by what he's said on there? The only thing that he's at least helped confirm or lead us to that I'm willing to take on is that the Club/Exec Board have withheld or significantly watered down feedback from the WS Board. All I said initially was that I thought it was fair enough he was engaging, if you want to extrapolate that point to calling me naive and lecturing me, on you go. I'm far from that and all it continues to do is show just how disparaging you can be about your fellow fans because it's how you want to choose to think of me and others on here.

He's trying to buy £4m of assets for £2m, gain control of £1.8m of Well Society assets and take sole control over the clubs £6m+ a year turnover. He would probably do live Webcam shows on request to get the deal through. He's working for big money, not just chatting with some fans. Don't be naive.

I'm virtually certain that Douglas Dickie and Tom Feeley were Society directors before joining the Executive Board. They were not elected to the latter in their own right. They sit/sat on the EB as representatives of the Society.

The Well Society constitution will have to change to give up fan ownership. As you say a yes vote for the deal kills the Well Society and chance of building a new one because why would you put anything in again if people are just going to vote to give all the money away? This really is an IQ test for our fanbase.....

If fans (and Society members) vote this through and collectively boot themselves in the bollocks, my direct debit will be cancelled, and I imagine that of many others. The deal will kill the Well Society, not only in the long-term but in the short term because its revenue will be reduced and it'll be unable to continue being a co-investor as Barmack proposes. This is a key question, as you note, but I doubt the Executive Board considered this because it's clear they want rid of the Society.

You’re not married then?

The only explanation for signing this boy is that Kettlewell is actually GrizzlyG and secretly obsessed with shite puns.

Of all the things to fire at me after the last few days, when you've seen my contributions and comments on all of this, really?

OK people enough with the attempts at Bird humour now please. No wonder Barmack is posting on P&B and not here.

Hope he doesn't prove to be an albatross round our neck. If he does we'll have a genuine grouse.

No chance. She has spent the whole week asking the same idiotic questions over and over in an attempt to create the impression that the club is in some of crisis situation if we don't get immediate investment. She has spent almost her entire time on the board trying to derail any conversation about this takeover attempt.

I'm still interested in Barmack. But negotiating with a newly appointed board. I expect McMahon to resign very soon.

I read and printed both that were published, first reading confirmed a NO vote and many reads since have not changed my view, However one thing niggles away at me and it may have been asked and answered but missed. This. Board issue statement unanimously recommending acceptance. 5, McMahon, Dickie, Feeley, Lindsay and Caldwell were in favour of acceptance. At this point it is important to remember Dickie and Feeley are there as representative of the WS. WS Board issue rejection after a 6 v 3 vote for this action. We can accept Dickie and Downie were 2 of 3, the we can take a guess at number 3. Timing is now critical, Did the 2 WS reps attend the MFC board before or after the WS meeting to reject .That is were they aware of the view of WS board before attending MFC meeting. May be considered a small item on the overall scheme of things but I beiieve no matter the vote result changes will have to be made and quickly.

So essentially some sort of debt needs to remain to secure that safeguarding Charge over Fir Park. Which was the reason we asked for it all those years ago. With no debt, how can we guarantee any new Board (as majority shareholders?) would not simply apply to have it removed? Thus exposing Fir Park to all sorts. Currently, if the Exec Board wanted to Mortgage FP to secure finance I understand the WS as 1st Charge holders would have to agree? But I'm no property lawyer. That Charge together with the debt also ensures that the WS would be more than just ordinary creditors were the Club to fail. Otherwise it would be so much in the £ rather than full repayment. Essential to assist with any 'new' Club arising from the ashes. Worst case scenario of course but it was a consideration and a sensible move. I was actually relieved when it was confirmed the Club owed a sizeable amount to the Society, for the very reasons above. I did wonder if the reason Les H and Jim McM moved the Society away from the original loaning agreement was a long term game looking at freeing the Charge. Credit to the new Society Board for driving a move back to the original set up. And no, I don't believe you are being cynical at all. Either that or we both are.

The charge is a legally binding agreement which means the club board are unable to sell the ground until the loan is repayed in full, basically its a secured loan. The charge does not automatically fall the club board would need to apply to have it removed so the lawyers need to get involved. It's when you see details like that you begin to realise that the deal on offer is all about eliminating the WS and securing full control over all the club assets for Barmack, or am I being cynical?

They won't be able to meet the terms and they will be changed so the whole loan of 800k is written off rather than just half of it.

As Steelboy notes, this situation will test the IQ of the average fan, and that's what concerns me.

S**t I have been rumbled!!!. Folks trust me on this, remember I got Theo Bair project one correct. Big Hugs Stewart "grizzlyg" Kettlewell Ps. Ba boom

It looks like a bit of a punt on paper, but he was out of contract, likely won't be expensive, signed on a 2-year (+1 option) deal, and is young enough to potentially develop further to be good for us in terms of performance and sell-on potential. If not, it'll probably not have been an expensive punt, and he'll fill the Maguire-shaped hole in the squad for a couple of seasons.

Not being funny, but you should get onto Pie & Bovril, challenge him directly, or at least engage directly with the folk you think are falling for his patter.

Yes, they are in slightly different positions. That said, as with most things in life, there's a middle line to be trod. I certainly don't expect the club or the Society to start chatting away about every detailed aspect of the issue, on social media, but they could answer basic factual questions or correct inaccuracies for example, or provide updates. On a different point made by some others both here and on P & B, many fans, including me, don't understand all the technicalities. That might well, unfortunately, be reflected in the final vote. It would be great if some uninvolved honest broker could give their objective opinion on the offer, as it currently stands. That would cut out the rhetoric and emotion from the discussion and help us to understand the competing arguments. .

If the 9 ws members vote then you would like to think that they would all be for or against the proposal whatever it is but if not then a simple majority should be sufficient to determine the official WS position which would then determine how the WS reps on the club board vote. Nothing here is rocket science it's simple democracy, it's time the WS board acted like major shareholders and reminded the Club board who's in charge.

Something worth remembering is that this fan ownership thing was relatively new when we implemented it at the club. So, there's still a lot to tighten up and rules to be revised I'd guess. This is the first real "situation" that we've faced since implementation, and I think if we deal with it correctly we can come out the other side better for it.

If nothing else, this thread has helped me find a new insult.

I have ran out of bird puns, owl need to think of some more

Quiet you, this is our nest and we can chirp how we want to.

If he does well well, we all all be choughed. If he doesn't there will be some amount of snipeing.

"Swift Swallow has Well Fans Raven and Crowing, with SK Puffin his Chest at new boy's Larks on the Park"

He has just posted on P&B that he is considering some changes. He has been quite active on there and has had some interesting and civil exchanges Been quite civilized compared to the cesspit that is twitter/x

Pretty sure that's what wiped the 2 million off the price.

Is he a winger 😀

We switch to playing rugby and relocate to East Kilbride. What a stupid question.

Again to play devil's advocate we are going against the guy with a plan and favouring the Society who have no plans. It's all very well saying it's plain to see there are commercial deals we can do without Barmack but who is going to take us to them? We as the Well Society do not have a controlling interest in the boardroom. Start there. Put a plan to the supporters. Build a frigging website. The Well Society are hopeless bowling club personas leading us downhill towards the Championship. Solve that and then it is much simpler to tell an ambitious man trying to take us forward but at a pittance, that we do not need him (not his money).

Folk really need to stop saying the Well Society is not fit for purpose. The Well Society previously was not fit for purpose because it was set up that way by the incumbents on the club board to get the benefit of of the money raised but without the interference that would come with true fan ownership. The fact that Society Members have had the temerity to vote individuals onto the Society Board who might actually want to change that and have a real say in the running of our club appears to have brought a lot of this to a head. Its clear from detail given that McMahon has been pushing this deal and that Barmack doesnt want to be inconvenienced by a rejuvenated Well Society trying to influence any decision making. He appears to have been assisted by Dickie and Feely in this regard which is a clear conflict of interest. How else can you explain a proposed deal with 1 side putting in £1.95m over 6 years and gaining 49% of the club whilst the other side puts in £1.75 over the same time period to lose 25% of its existing stake? Barmack also gets effective control of the club from day 1 for only £300k and an 8% stake due to his chairmanship and board appointees? The deal is ludicrous and should be chased. The new Well Society Board have only been in place since October. In that time they have done their due diligance on this and are putting together their own proposals to strengthen the club going forward. They are all all Motherwell fans with the best interests of the club at heart. They have a diversity of skill and experience. They deserve a chance to show they can can do better than the ones who got us to this point.

some of the responses I've see on twitter to him are disgusting , "fuck off " and "Fuck your offer" are really mutant material.