capt_oats

The whole draft system over there has always fascinated me however the way that high school and college sport is set up, even culturally, is so fundamentally different to the way sport is organised here means that it's take a lot of effort in terms of infrastructure to get it right.

Absolutely. During the game against Cove I had some utter clown sat behind me berating Ben Hall for passing the ball square and not getting it up the park. We were 3-0 up at the time.

I think it's possible that we're conflating two different issues here in so much as Saturday, to me, was just flat out poor judgement rather than being indicative of any overall issue McGhee has with the crop of 20s. Put simply, he's shown enough faith in these players to involve them in the first team in so much as Hall started while both Cadden and Thomas were on the bench and Watt has been on the bench recently too. If he didn't have *faith* in them they wouldn't be involved in a match day squad. They'd be sat in the 20s or just out the picture in the same way someone like Jake Taylor was. Have the club historically been poor at bringing through youth players and showing faith in them? Absolutely. No argument from me on that. However for me that view and McGhee's team selection on Saturday aren't necessarily linked. It may be the case that McGhee simply didn't think Hearts away at Tynecastle was a good fixture to start some of the younger guys. Cadden, as an example, to the best of my knowledge isn't a holding midfielder so he'd not have been been an obvious choice to replace Lasley (if he'd be replacing anyone it'd be Grimshaw and that spot went to Ainsworth), while Laing is as untried in there as Law and Leitch for whatever reason hasn't kicked a ball in the first team for months. It'd seem to me that on Saturday McGhee made the decision that he wanted to start with players who have a decent amount of first team experience this season. It's all ifs and buts however had we been playing say Killie at Fir Park then obviously I don't know but I don't think there would have been as much of a re-shuffle. Would starting Watt and Cadden have got us a better result? It may have but at the same time if we had taken a total doing then we'd probably still have the same thread on here it'd just be with a slant about how our young players aren't good enough to to compete which again rightly or wrongly is probably a discussion McGhee would have been keen for us to avoid. To get back on track; The main issue I have with regards youth development at the club is that, in my opinion, in recent years we don't really seem to have done a very good job at making players *better*. We may well give some a platform however we don't necessarily improve them. Take someone like Hutchinson, he was clearly an excellent talent however equally, again in my opinion, he was still making the same mistakes and prone to the same errors when he left as he was when he stepped in to the team. Erwin as another example of someone who was given some games but was shunted out to the left wing, it was only really under Baraclough that he started to find his feet and actually improve and even more so when you look at how he benefited from playing alongside McDonald (you can probably point to how McManus is helping Hall along too). It's not really enough for them simply to get into the first team, the actual development part shouldn't be a glass ceiling when they actually start getting games and I think in a way that's where the 'sink or swim' mentality fails a bit. The first team needs to be conducive to making these players better. Again, I reckon we've got more chance of seeing someone like Cadden starting games if he's partnered alongside Lasley and Pearson.

He's signed until the end of January.

Given McGhee has been parachuted in this season presumably with an initial remit to turn us around, stabilise and make sure we're not cutting about the play-offs again come May then I can understand why he's talking about reaching 40 points as a shorthand for being safe then we'll look at playing the younger guys. As a general rule though it'd be fairly daft at the start of each season to say "right, we'll wait until we get until 40 points before any of the 20s get a regular run." There's an obvious danger of being far too literal in interpretation. Beyond that as Desp said he's given Ben Hall a shot but equally has been at pains to point out that he's been able to do that because he's had McManus playing alongside him, given McGhee inherited this team then he's really having to work with the hand he's been dealt. Though he wasn't one of our youth players Grimshaw is 20 and was getting a game despite his run of games with us being his first shot at first team football but that was balanced out by him playing alongside Pearson and Lasley who provided experience in that area of the park. I can understand why he'd have been hesitant to put out a midfield 3 of say; Pearson, Grimshaw and Cadden or Cadden, Lasley and Leitch. That's not necessarily down to a lack of trust. Either way It's fairly clear that there needs to be a balance between youth and experience even Man United's Class of 92 had a spine of Schmeichel, Bruce, Pallister, Keane, and Cantona. The one thing I would say is that you can see who the club are trying to bring through and where they fit but I think it's a case of the balance needing to be right. In general I'm very much in favour of the whole "if you're good enough, you're old enough" thing however equally in the case of someone like Moore, look at the difference in his record when he's getting starts (Cowdenbeath, Ayr) vs his record with Motherwell where he's largely been coming off the bench. At his age and with his injury record the best thing for him I'd have thought would be to play and get games. Were he still at the club just now then given the form that Moult and McDonald are in it's difficult to imagine that he'd be getting any more minutes than either Clarkson or Robinson which being blunt wouldn't help him develop in any way.

Very much my view as well. As much as I like Ainsworth (and I do) it doesn't help anyone trying to turn him into something he's not. He's a winger, with pace and on his day he can be a hugely effective one. He's not a central midfielder. We know that playing two wingers leaves the 2 central midfielders exposed so don't do it. We've found a system that gets the best out of one winger in Johnson and whilst the other options beyond Lasley and Pearson may not be like for like with Grimshaw someone like Cadden should be fine playing alongside those more experienced players. Even when we started to pick up a bit of form at the tail end of last year though the eye-catching results (Accies, St Mirren & play-offs) had Ainsworth and Johnson starting the other wins (ICT, Killie x 2) were with one winger and Conor Grant in midfield which was a bit over-shadowed by the fact that it seemed we weren't getting the best out of Grant in that position and also the fact that when they were on it Ainsworth and Johnson destroyed a couple of teams. Against a team like County if we're going to get anything we need to compete in the centre of the park. Having an extra man in there allows us to press and hopefully give us a better chance of collecting the second ball.

Maclean is out injured I think. Fractured his shoulder in the 20s cup game against Kilmarnock in December.

Curiously the 2 play off games are really the only time it's worked effectively and in those fixtures McDonald was dropped a bit deeper so it was hardly a 442. At the tail end of last season we won 2 (Accies at Fir Park, St Mirren at Fir Park) and lost 1 with them both starting the rest of the games had one starting and one coming off the bench. Anyway, with regards Ross County having watched (and enjoyed) their game on the telly earlier a couple of thoughts: - they'll be without Boyce who's injured - Jonny Hayes had a lot of joy on Aberdeen's left attacking County's full back Reckord - they are what they are a team who play 442 and are pretty open and in truth cede possession a lot. The main thing about them really is their physicality and work rate. They're a decent enough team, moreso when Jackson Irvine's playing (I'm not sure why they started with him on the bench today) however they're by no means world beaters and they just lost a game they were a goal up in playing against 10 men for more than half the game. Though equally we just taken a 6-0 bleaching ourselves. Looking at their season so far it's been patchy since mid-October. They only lost 3 of their first 11 however since then they've lost 8 of 12 with 4 wins. Also they've only won 2 away all season (Kille, Accies). Assuming McGhee manages to pick the team up after yesterday's shambles and reverts back to the sort of team that was doing well of late and actually plays players in their proper positions then there's no reason why we can't get back on track. Obviously the main thing for us is getting midfield sorted out and being honest I'd much rather see an actual midfielder like Cadden in alongside Pearson and Lasley than hoping we can fit Ainsworth in there or sticking Josh Law into midfield. If all goes to plan then I'd hope we can do alright.

Just had a look at it there and we've started with Ainsworth and Johnson 9 times 8 times in the league this season and lost 7 of them 6 of them. The two wins came against Thistle at Fir Park in September and Killie at Rugby Park in October. There's a reasonable argument for them playing in a 433/451 with 3 central midfielders but it'd obviously mean dropping one of the strikers. What is almost certainly the case is that we clearly shouldn't be playing them as wide players in a 442. Edit: it's actually 8 and 6 losses not as my original post 12th Aug - Hearts (L) 15th Aug - Aberdeen (L) 22nd Aug - St Johnstone (L) 26th Sept - Partick Thistle (W) 31st Oct - Kilmarnock (W) 7th Nov - ICT (L) 21st Nov - Ross County (L)* 16th Jan - Hearts (L) * noting Johnson was playing left back

I think there's also an issue to be addressed re: Pearson as well. Our record with/without him has often been cited. As it stands we play with 3 central midfielders and our midfield seems to totally fall apart if we lose either of Lasley or Pearson let alone both. I'm not sure which of our young players does actually fit the Lasley role. Any time I've seen Cadden he seems more suited to the area of the park that Grimshaw was playing (without necessarily being the same sort of player). After that you're looking at the likes of Leitch who as has been mentioned hasn't had a minute on the park under McGhee. Even if Laing was to step into midfield I don't think he'd be an obvious fit immediately. Edit: Here's the league record 15/16 with & without; With Lasley P 17 - W 6 D 4 L 7 Without Lasley P 4 - W 1 D 0 L 3 With Pearson P 14 - W 6 D 3 L 5 Without Pearson P 7 - W 1 D 1 L 5

Just watched McGhee's press conference, sounds almost nailed on that Ainsworth will start on Saturday in place of Grimshaw.

Laing played as holding midfielder for the u20s during the week by the look of the highlights the club posted on YouTube

I've never had any issues with the print on the recent shirts be it Macron, Puma, Canterbury etc and I wear them fairly regularly for 5s and 7s maybe two or three times a week. The only one I had problems with was the Pony home shirt from the 96-98 with the kind of felt manufacturers logo which just fell off after time. As far as print peeling goes, most team shirts I've had are alright on that front. The only one that springs to mind is an Adidas LA Galaxy away shirt where the sponsors logo and print on the back has just gone completely and an Adidas Deportivo home jersey where the sponsors logo was pretty much an iron on job and is fully cracked. Other than that the ones I wear regularly stand up to repeat washes pretty well.

McGhee talking up Ainsworth. Calls it as most have seen it, he feels we can only play with one winger just now and if when we do play with both it'll be with one up top. http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/sport/14199435.Lionel_Ainsworth_still_has_a_big_Motherwell_future__insists_Mark_McGhee/

United's reserves are looked after by former PNE player Warren Joyce. I'd imagine that he'd have had more of a say than anything. The two clubs seem to have been doing a fair amount of business together lately. Having read a few Preston forums it'd seem they had been looking at Grimshaw last year as well. LvG has always been a total maniac though.

I believe it's part of the whole "development loan" deal.

The u20s line up is an interesting read this evening, will be interesting to see who's playing where; Twardzik, McMillan, Chalmers, Watt, Kennedy, Laing, Falconer, Campbell, Fletcher, J. Leitch, Cadden Subs: Long, Moore, R. Leitch, Mackin, Ferguson, Turnbull, Watters

Agree 100% about dropping McDonald deeper. I'd be surprised if Leitch got the nod. He's been nowhere near the team and hasn't got on the pitch under McGhee despite having been available to him on the bench. If we're not able to bring anyone else in before Saturday I'd think it'd be more likely to be Cadden. You're bang on the money though in the sense it'd be a huge chance for both to claim a position.

Home tie. Could've been worse.

You're right, he played 82mins in a Dev league game vs Rangers on 1st Sept. I'm not sure it would count though despite being a league sanctioned by SPFL as Ferguson also played in that game and has since been out on loan to Annan and is now with Airdrie as of last week.

Having said that, Laing was in the same situation with Forest last season.

I'm inclined to agree that we don't need a massive overhaul. Re: players you mentioned there I suppose it depends on how happy they are to be sat on the bench. You'd think someone like Robinson for example, for all he's not shown much up here, could get a starting berth for a team in League 1 down south. Clarkson could easily be worth a start for a championship side up here as well and having said that he's been perfectly decent coming off the bench for us recently. However given we are very reliant on Pearson I think if there's a player who could come in and offer actual competition for both him and Lasley then that would be ideal with a view to rotating Cadden/Grimshaw. All depends on who's available I suppose but being forced to start with a midfield 3 of Pearson, Grimshaw, Cadden or Cadden, Lasley, Grimshaw would leave us a bit exposed (depending on opposition). Edit: on the full back issue, presumably given Watt can play both RB & LB and we've seen him on the bench more regularly over the past few weeks then he'd be considered cover option for both Law and Hammell with Chalmers just a general squad player (which tbf is how I've always viewed him anyway).

Someone better informed than I may be able to answer this but with regards Reid, he hasn't actually played for us this season other than Lasley's testimonial has he? With regards that particular rule is it the number of clubs he's 'played' for or a registration thing? Edit: doesn't matter found it, a player is free to be registered to 3 clubs in a season but can only play for 2 clubs in "official" matches. So the fact that Reid's already played for St Mirren shouldn't impinge on a move if someone wanted him assuming he hasn't already played for us in a competitive game. http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/regulations_on_the_status_and_transfer_of_players_en_33410.pdf

Going by McGhee's post-match interview we are apparently hopeful of getting Grimshaw sorted out this week. It'll still most likely leave us with a midfield of Ainsworth, Grimshaw, Pearson, Johnson going up against a Hearts midfield 3 though with Lasley's absence. As far as Leitch goes, I'm not sure if he's injured or not but it's notable that he was on the bench for 4 of McGhee's first 5 games in charge and never got on the park including the 3 games where we were missing a central midfielder due to Lasley's injury. Indeed, McGhee even commented after the Ross County game that he couldn't play the system he wanted because he was missing Lasley. As much as that may have been patter to try and pass off a failed experiment in sticking Marvin Johnson at left back it still presumably says something given he had a central midfielder sitting on the bench at a point in the season where he had said he was wanting to get a look at everyone. Looking back his last minutes for the first team were as a sub in Craigan's first game as interim manager vs Thistle and his last game for the u20s was vs Hibs on Nov 24th. The fact that Laing and Fletcher have still been getting run outs with the u20s would suggest to me that they're still in the thoughts of the management. With the form of the Hall & McManus central pairing it's not a massive surprise that we've not rotated in there and in Fletcher's case he's coming back from injury having seemingly been made of glass so not rushing him back in when we don't need to isn't a shock. As it is, the two guys in front of him are in form and have now scored over 20 goals between them this season.

Pearson for me also. Though nods due to McDonald & Johnson as well.