Goggles & Flippers

The Tommy Gemmell statue in Craigneuk makes a nod to Ravenscraig with its' plinth. Still able to reference the past in a cost effective stadium with a good design team. Don't know if anyone else noticed, but the recurring theme with every stadium they covered was seven day a week use. They were all designed with that in mind from the outset. Kansas City Current I think want to make a gimmick of the Missouri river. The openness of that stadium may struggle here due to our climate. But the proposed stadium in Denver have made a thing of it too. When I look around North Lanarkshire there's not much to drive people here despite having a huge population within a 30 minute drive. NLC were envious that residents would travel to Hamilton or East Kilbride to use their shopping centres if a trip to Glasgow couldn't be faced, taking money out the area. Ravenscraig is a chance to create a draw and the only way we can stay in the town if we want something new unless Dalzell plate mill goes the same way. When I look around the local area I see things like the Sunday markets at Chatelherault and think, well that works. It's why in the presentation I allowed for a space where food truck owners could use it as a base and be a draw for lunchtime and evening trade as a draw in itself plus somewhere to have a shared prep kitchen, storage, refrigeration and take unsocial hours deliveries. You tell these vendors that over and above everything else every two weeks you deliver 10,000 to 18,000 folk to them, again it all seems to be mutually beneficial. The other thing which is total pie in the sky is COSM, but we could emulate elements of it but it needs investment and brings risk. The story behind it is pretty cool: Fans in the video say they paid $140-180 for a ticket no doubt before the $15-20 beers, it late explains admission starts at $70, which is a very American trait and how their sports is moving with dynamic pricing. But I suppose if folk here are prepared to pay £30 for a Scotland fanpark for the WC and often pay a commensurate hourly rate at places like Top Golf then could you fill it with enough revenue per week to make it viable? Our market would favour football and there's cameras to buy and install and move to the next venue here and in Europe, but piggybacking off the feed for the two American based venues would be a start. I don't know what they do outside their camera's being at an event to keep the place turning over. I doubt they'd be keen as LA, Dallas and ...... some brownfield site in Lanarkshire doesn't really have the same oomph or align with their premium brand, would be a bit like Del Boy's Reliant Regal. But it's all stuff to think about and rule out than never think of at all.

I agree with the attendances, football success is cyclical. For us in recent memory the trend has been good for a couple of seasons then mediocre for a few, above average for one and repeat on a five year cycle, heavily influenced by manager, recruitment and academy progression. I do think a new stadium if designed wisely could get bump in attendances for home and away fans due to the novelty and nuance. What maintains that long term is emulating the footballing side from the past 18 months as much as possible. Hosting Livi midweek in early December has a lot cobwebs even now. I think you can do things integral to the design to enhance the atmosphere even at half capacity or less. Stuff like steep stands (building regs have it at 42 deg pitch max I think). Proximity of opposing fans, similar to the old shed where tribalism manifests and can flourish, one of my best memories was at Brockville and the too and fro'. Perception, situating the fans so on telly at least the stadium looks busier (ie none under the main TV gantry), Hampden does this when the OF aren't involved. If parts of the stadium are unused there's no need for stewarding, McLean stand for Ross County fixture for example. If you count the top flight three OF, potential of top six and a fourth, a city club requiring more than 4,800 tickets and a early cup tie then we have potential to oversell our current offering in roughly a quarter of our home fixtures, and outsell massively in three to five of those games. If projected income can be used to give us a much better stadium to enter when we get the keys, I see the negatives as minor. The spaces I suggested in the presentation, only one corner I envisaged as being office space (both for the club and an incubator space for SME's). The other corners/stands were a mixture of spaces where people have/wish/aspire to go to, such as a gym with or without a pool/dance studios, etc, street-food court and a "Makers Space", using one set up in Boston as an idea. I suggested our executive boxes could be used as hotel bedrooms on non match days. For me the stadium and it's spaces have to be fully dynamic, configurable and adaptable plus the asset has to be sweated massively outside the 25 games hosted per season. A coffee shop/restaurant is complimentary to all of the above and ensure the building would be in use universally almost 24hrs a day but certainly from 0700-2300 if all ideas employed. A 12,000 capacity allows us to mimic what we have at present by and large, except our current maintenance costs are swapped for a large mortgage and lesser maintenance costs, this would undoubtedly affect our player budget. Moving to 15,000 or 18,000 stadium allows the club in theory to recoup approximately £20m over 20 years from other clubs supporters to finance the stadium while filtering the same ticketing revenues we currently enjoy to fund the team. Add in increased home crowds, enhanced hospitality functions, rents of sub leases, etc. all of these allow us to move away from current peer clubs like St Mirren, Kilmarnock and Dundee.

Yeah funding is key, I took from the AGM we're due eight installments for Lennon spaced every six months, if we realise some or all of the interest in our players that's been brought up in the past couple of months then we in theory have a healthy downpayment to get the ball rolling. The skill is talking to institutional investors and making the case and extracting every penny from the public purse as possible. You'd hope the authorities see a fan owned community club as a different entity to Dermot Desmond or the 49ers when it comes to decision making. Issue is the developer of Ravenscraig has been sitting on it for 25 years with minimal movement for a host of reasons. If we make player sales in excess of what Lennon went for in back to back seasons then they'll know that and we move from being an anchor/draw to further development on the site to being asked for money for land that limits our ambition. We have a unique situation in Scotland where two clubs hoover up support from the entire country. I have no issue with following what Motherwell has done in the past and extracting every single green and blue pound possible. I'd also add the figures I cobbled together only account for three OF visits per season, we've qualified for the top six half of the time since the split was introduced, a high flying Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen have potential to exceed the McLean if there were extra seats available, not to mention home cup ties before semi final stage. When you add National team matches at all levels there is plenty of scope for these to all be cream over and above any repayment commitments. With respect to the feasibility report, as things are kept close to the chest, maybe only enough to endorse the decision made at board level to sell it to the wider support. While I'd favour a move if the decision is a new POD then I'll shoulder shrug and see it as a lost opportunity. If it's a Ravenscraig move, then I suspect there were be a genuine heads gone from many.

Ha true-ish, my career path took a different twist so no beret, cravat and any clothing with arm patches as I never worked for a practice.

An indoor 200m one, not a 400m which I agree with you on. Not intrinsic to the design, just trying to sweat the asset. It would be below the pitch anyway and not get in the way.

Exactly, we would require two spaces to accommodate 18-20 stripped players plus 6-7 management team and a further room for officials. Add in showering/toilet facilities. Cost and logistics come into play for water/waste/electric hookups all for a space that will be redundant for only nine months of use. Personally I'd rather avoid anything temporary as it's money we'll never see back and put it into something we can use going forward. Also worth highlighting that Liverpool's Anfield Road redevelopment had the primary contractor going bust when they were on the home straight but already overrunning. As it turned out they got the keys a good six months behind schedule and had a lot of compo/apologies to make for tickets sold. Hearts also had a sizable overrun on their main stand. If we aimed for a one season build (mid May to Mid July the following year - 14 months) if there's any overrun say to Xmas then that seriously affects revenues when we assumed we'd be generating an increase on what they are now. I'd suspect a good number of local residents would make the planning process a pain but even those not classed as busy could easily highlight the regular disruption in a residential area. For me, Fir Park will always be limiting. As for what I'd love to see and I appreciate it's very much lottery win territory .... I covered much of it in the presentation, get a planning consultant well versed in extracting every penny from government. Find an architect with a track record of frugal but quality builds, highlight the need for off the shelf opposed to bespoke components, while a Zaha Hadid ornate roof is captivating and wins awards, pragmatic-industrial should be our brief and feeds into our heritage. Identify gaps in the market, at present there is only one covered football pitch in the UK, considering our climate that's both surprising and a bit wild but offers opportunity. The Northern Arizona Skydome was constructed in 1977 inexpensively, with it you have a unique space can be configured for indoor athletics to tennis, basketball, gymnastics, graduations, black tie banquets, exhibitions and concerts. NLC is in need of the latter, the area is in need of all the others, however the issue remains with the pitch, the easier option would be rails to allow it uninterrupted wind, rain and sunshine when it allows or wheeled inside if frost forecast. The alternative is permanent grass indoors that is managed with grow-lights, don't think that is feasible however. I'd look to have a 18,000 capacity, the reason for this is two fold, allow for an increase in our home gate over what we presently have (you have to have some ambition of growth) and exploit the away support (especially the OF). Chapman and Dickie realised and then maximised their visits with the McLean Stand in the early 90's. At present we sell 4,800, double that and the club has the ability to earn in excess of £20m over 20 years for those extra 5,000 seats. Jeopardy ensures if we are relegated or there's another Covid like event. However we can leverage borrowing based on future income without touching what we currently earn with our 13,000 stadium. Finally, the fear that FP can already feel a bit cold and echoey in mid-winter hosting Livi or Ross County, that is true, 5,000 extra seats to an 18,000 seater does not help that in the slightest unless you manage that seating. Moveable partitions based on the projected crowd to ensure supports are not spread out and any unused seating minimised on the TV coverage, helps alter perception. It would already be a novelty for locals and away fans due to it being indoor, streetfood pop ups to cater on matchdays in addition to traditional offerings, I'm sure we get an uplift in home support and away support off the back of the best stadium to visit, currently held by Tynecastle where demand outweighs supply. Stress testing/Devil Advocate: NLC is looking at closing sports centres and libraries to save money. I also don't know if the concert hall was a revenue generator worth the hassle of having it. Holyrood/Westminster is broke too thanks to stagnant/minimal growth. The Regional Sports Facility, NLC may not want its potential revenues harmed with a similar space next door. Thanks to the Commonwealth games in 2014, the Emirates beside Parkhead also offers an indoor venue for multiple indoor sports. Cost overruns are inevitable. As a club in the past we've often under-resourced initiatives and then surprised they didn't work. What I outlined is both pragmatic but also has many complex facets to it. It can be achievable and done on a budget but often contractors bill for perceived complexity regardless. And yes, I've got a Euromillions on.

I think the issue with the corners is the floodlight towers flanking the Cooper form part of its structure. I’ll look closer and check at the Hibs game, but I think they support the front girder that is hidden behind the advertisement. I don’t know how you fill them in with any hope of putting any seats in to justify the expenditure. The McLean needs major work and not only the seats and metalwork in the lower tier that have been exposed to 35 years of rain, wind and Green Brigade but I’d invite everyone to look at the underside of the roof with the triangular support braces at the next home game, it’s almost fully orange with rust.

Not cited directly but part of the final bullet point. It’s also in the presentation. I’ve also mentioned on P&B in the past that not only changing rooms but laundry, commercial kitchen, all hospitality offerings, manager and media offices, press conference space, etc. It also brings Club 100 into play as a temporary sticky plaster of sorts but I’d personally avoid that place like the plague. Relocation costs, temporary leases, loss of ticketing income, limited premium and minimal enhanced ticketing options plus having to segregate the McLean to accommodate the POD spillover, it all adds up very fast.

I'll throw my two cents into this debate as she who shall not be named ruined it the last time this surfaced. A year ago I wrote a presentation as I thought we had reached our Rubicon with respect to FP. It was written with Lennon's prospective transfer in mind as we were due to receive a second once in a generation fee for a player four years after the last one. With the success we've had this season we could be facing a high seven to low eight figure cumulative total this summer which only adds to our list of options. I think it's worth pointing out that while the McLean adds to the quirk of FP, since it was completed the second tier has earned us approximately £10-12m in extra revenue over a single tier stand. I suspect that extra income has played a major part in our 40+ top tier status and often kept the wolf from the door. For example, St Mirren will never sell more than 2,000 seats to away support in their 8k stadium. We will sell 20k extra away seats than them over a season which is approximately £400k in extra revenue. I should add, I'm very much a proponent of a new stadium and studied architecture at university, I’m just convinced in the modern game you need to have multiple ancillary income streams beyond hosting 25 or so games a season. However I'll flag some of the issues I've seen brought up on this thread already: It's human nature to be resistant to change, I can't fault anyone for nostalgia being a factor for them. We can't ignore FP is limited in what we can do or achieve. If we strive to be the best we can be on the pitch that should extend to what surrounds the pitch. Training Facility - We were looking at one in Muirhouse, now there's talk of Watling Street. A building with changing, physio, conditioning, gym, rehab, dining room and kitchen and possibly an integrated grandstand. If moving to a new stadium the first thing to consider would be a campus where all facilities are centrally located. The main stand could incorporate all of these functions to avoid duplication with training pitches around the stadium footprint (think Man City). Essentially the cost of a satellite facility could be absorbed and spent on the stadium to give an enhanced experience. Design - When there's so much to admire off the park in recruitment, transfers, etc. why would anyone assume the decision makers would drop the ball and not take heed and avoid the traits of all the poor stadiums constructed in the past 25 years. You'd think they'd look to Tynecastle as a very good basis for ideas. I think this fear is unfounded. Transport - Best not to use 2026 transport links to a pretty much empty site to what may evolve. Not many bus companies that would spot an opportunity and then not act on it. Income - Vast improvement on hospitality offering and revenues. Ability to hold all events PotY etc. in house, ramp up outside/midweek events. Look for business' that may want to be tenants, have facilities available for public 7am to 11pm such as cafe/restaurant/etc. and sweat the asset. Cost - Safe to say since covid base materials have jumped as has labour, what we may have faced years ago have increased at a rate of knots. However there are ways and means to address it. If we pursue a new stadium we would have a sizable down payment. We could easily sell the McLean twice over to the OF and that stand perfectly illustrates the precedent of maximising and exploiting the OF support. Look to grow home support from current 7k (still a bit mad to type that) to 9k and continue to allow away support a minimum of 5k (to maintain current away revenues) moves us into a 14k capacity stadium territory. If you assume every 1,000 away capacity we add we make at least £100k per season (1000 seat x three OF games x £33), expand that to 2,500 seats (17.5k stadium) and it's £250k per year extra over current revenues. Over 20 years that generates an extra £5m + inflation at the conservative end of the projections over and above what we earn now. Get top six in half those seasons, plus Hearts and Falkirk have shown this season could easily bring in excess of the McLean 4,800 capacity if it was possible. The cost, upheaval and disruption of demolishing the POD and it's replacement out of commission for at least one full season cannot be overlooked. That stand is our primary breadwinner and our revenues during the construction would face a 7-figure loss in addition to the build cost. I appreciate a lot of the above is back of fag packet sums but I'm happy to address any omissions, errors or oversights if highlighted. I have one idea that I think would have legs but it would need major central and local government involvement but I don't think there's anything in the pot. Future Stadium - Presentation

Been by P&B recently? https://forum.pieandbovril.com/topic/295263-motherwell-fc-a-thread-for-all-seasons-v20/page/127/#findComment-17494643

The post here was upvoted because it contents resonated, rather than eager to slate you (inevitably you default to the negative), I would hope most, like me, would have hoped for some introspection and a change in behaviour because often threads are taken off on a tangent, often any fun sapped out. Alas, as sure as the sun will rise in the East tomorrow, a well worn and predictable cycle returns. The moderators must have shared the same eyebrow raise when you used my name here considering it is what was cited as "bang out of order" and set you off a year ago. The mock outrage at the time is now shown to be disingenuous and lacking any hint of self awareness not to recognise the hypocrisy of you now doing so. But that was never what it was about eh? This was only ever done to be provocative because that's the soup you swim in. How many of your nine lives have you used up on here? Fair play to the moderators, they have patience well in excess of mine for all the extra work you bring them in what is unpaid and often a thankless task. I don't know if you followed through on your threat to contact the club CEO, or it was felt the not so cryptic posts on social media were enough. The problem is you take things into the real world to denigrate and negatively influence others, the very thing you cite as being a victim of, you also employ with gusto. You were asked without any ambiguity to cease engaging, slandering or invoking me and here we are again. You really can't help yourself. Strike Two.

I can maybe clarify some stuff as I and a few other contributors on here were involved as a sounding board by Leeann and Derek Weir. From the club website in 2013: https://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2013/03/19/well-society-sign-up-night/ Junior Steel Membership – £25 (for juveniles under 15) Steel Membership – £300 Claret Membership – £,1000 Amber Membership – £5,000 1886 Membership – £25,000 The annual fee was to keep your benefits alive (which at the time were pretty substantial), from memory Amber benefits for an annual renewal fee of £1,000 maybe? you got stuff totalling way more than annual contribution. Not paying the annual fee did NOT affect your voting rights, just access to the benefits as per your tier. The £300 barrier to entry was something they were aware of at the time and DD's were floated at launch but there were fears it had financial compliance issues with the WS being a provident society. A few years down the line Hearts blazed that trail and we embraced it but more as a means to appeal to a wider audience to attain £300 steel membership (and beyond if you wished) in easier to swallow chunks. It was not sold as a universal adoption by all members, more it would be nice if you did. I can recall from when £5 was deposited new members post 2015 got their membership pack and voting rights which caused some consternation at the time, over them getting to £300 deposited, maybe it was part of the sales tool to boost membership.

If that’s the case then I apologise for linking that post to me. However, the reason I drew that conclusion is pretty valid because there’s been wee digs since and September on various platforms. Regardless, your response is measured and I suppose that has to be seen as progress.

That's not what happened though it is? And I think you know this and not for the first time. I let all of them slide despite your best efforts to get a rise because it is pure energy vampire stuff. The constant twisting of what actually happened, needing to be at the centre of everything often devoid of any salient points, citing you don't have issues with anyone while having a long rap sheet of those perceived to have wronged you, hijacking of threads or taking them off on a merry tangent and not being robust enough to take a joke or be corrected without crying foul. All combined, they landed you in SteelmenOnline jail until recently. I'm glad you cite P&B, you rocked up in the St Mirren matchday thread a few weeks back and ... surprise surprise ... binfire. To the extent the St Mirren fans with no preconceptions or knowledge told you to take a break with the standard eyeroll. You demand anonymity yet lay out your life story in along with your name in unsolicited DM's. You cite being stalked, yet your online and real world actions fits most traits of that behaviour. You claim to be chill and water off a ducks back yet you prickle at everything. However, the most vexatious action is the twisting of the truth to fuel your grudges. Time for a long hard look in the mirror. You must also not have been paying much attention last summer, but I keep receipts. The DM's you cite were forwarded to Yabba and another moderator in their entirety because I knew I'd need to keep my powder dry because you simply can't help yourself. So get your wee rant typed up littered with the well worn victim stuff and sympathy fishing. Don't DM me, don't slander me on Facebook and don't continue to bring a sword to a gunfight. To everyone else, apologies for this, this is a football forum after all for conjecture, debate and most importantly humour. Just straw/camels back ...