dennyc

So do you condone it? Even if ultimately it were to cost the club a fine or points deduction? Have you ever considered that the Club might have issued the statement to protect themselves if the authorities were to get involved,?

Everybody agrees the rule is nonsense in that if the ball had fallen to a team mate it would have been a valid goal. But if the ball had not hit Wilkinson's arm then the defender's touch would have cleared the ball. So, yes, Wilkinson as the goal scorer did gain an advantage which is clear from the BBC highlights. Whether he would have gained the same advantage if the ball had hit his chest or knee is irrelevant. And the part of the arm that touched the ball was not down by his side, natural or not. Wilkinson did not protest, even half heartedly. That's usually a clue. We lost out to the decision, just as we lost out against Ross County when they scored. But sadly both decisions were correct and VAR applied the laws as they stand.

McCrorie is a good goalkeeper and in my opinion better than either Kelly or Clarke. Unfortunately for him he is second choice behind Rangers best player. I'd have him at Motherwell in a heartbeat. Same applies to Shankland and why he is not in the Scotland squad is beyond me. He has been the only Hearts player to show any consistency this season, which is perhaps why he is club captain. Instead Clarke continues with Jacob Brown who has not featured in a League game for Luton this season and who averaged six goals in the Championship for Stoke over 5 seasons.

They tried something similar in the World Cup but more or less abandoned it in the knock out stages. Poor wee souls were knackered having to play an extra 20/25 minutes on average. At knock out stage the possibility of two halves of extra time could have resulted in even more game time. Then penalties. So common sense prevailed to a degree. And in England they have quietly cut back on added time compared to the start of the season. At least it feels that way. But something does need to be done. Maybe a mix of controls. How about an independent timekeeper recording time lost at a goal, VAR check, Red Card, Subs and injury stoppages where a trainer is needed. Take that time keeping away from the referee to ensure accuracy. Let the Referee continue to manage time wasting on the park, but with no leeway given whatsoever for delaying tactics at free kicks, throw ins and goal kicks. The independent timekeeper effectively decides add on time. Once it becomes the norm for ALL referees to issue yellow cards the time wasting will stop. Even Craig Gordan and Liam Kelly would soon get the message. Of course the referees would require to be monitored to ensure consistency which is another matter. But in reality nothing will be done.

Yeah, Celtic must be at the stage where UEFA will be considering partial or full ground closure as a more effective sanction. Certainly hit them harder financially than token fines that are probably covered by programme sales anyway. And we all know how Celtic like to look after the pennies. Also, it took the GB storming the gates at Celtic Park as per Fir Park to have any sort of home ban and threat of permanent exclusion introduced. I note the comment to the effect of ' The safety of all Celtic fans is paramount'. No mention of the safety of opposing fans, stewards or police. Banning them from away games was an easy step, with no financial impact on Celtic whatsoever. And even if season tickets are eventually cancelled as opposed to suspended, there are plenty of other fans ready to step in. So again, little or no financial impact on Celtic. So I agree, only the threat of ground closure, exclusion from tournaments or a points deduction will force Celtic to act responsibly. The GB have been causing havoc for years and in the past Celtic have been happy to pay up re damage on the understanding incidents stay low profile. Maybe they should also remind Brendan that it is not that clever to be seen to be defending those fans who are tarnishing the name of his employers.

Agree totally. Add to that the fact that it is costing Clubs a fortune, only to be left even more confused and angry than they were before VAR was introduced. Those costs are only going to increase. From a fan perspective, the uncertainty it brings is spoiling what is meant to be spontaneous celebration. Communication was a farce yesterday. I think the Premier League in England are into year 4 and the errors there are becoming worse and more frequent. So don't expect any improvement up here either. Referees all make errors. But it is actually worse when the VAR officials are the ones making errors, despite having resources and time not available to referees. And if referees and VAR officials agree, why is there a need for an appeals process. More cash down the drain. That alone suggests the powers that be expect their employees to get it horribly wrong.

The hand ball issue was fully highlighted after Scotland beat Israel at Hampden when Israel scored after the ball clearly hit an Israeli arm and then fell to a colleague who netted There was no intent to handle the ball and the handler did not score. So, crazy that the Law is, it was a perfectly valid goal. Given after a VAR check. If the handler had deliberately pushed the ball to his colleague using his hand then the goal would not have been awarded. Yesterday was the exact same. The ball only hit the arm after a ricochet and was not deliberate. The ball then fell to a team mate and eventually a different County player scored. Whether accidental or not, if the handler had scored then the goal would have been ruled out. Also under current rules, if the ball breaks off your body and strikes your arm then it should not regarded as a foul, unless you score directly. The whole thing is a shambles and needs simplified. In trying to do that IFAB only confused matters further. On Friday Spurs conceded a goal. given after VAR spent 5 minutes trying to establish whether the goal scorer had touched the ball with his arm, accidental or not did not come into it. VAR could not confirm one way or another whether the player had armed the ball and so went with the on field decision of a goal. Had VAR been convinced of a hand ball the goal would have been denied. VAR later confirmed that was the discussion. Where confusion arises is that a (very) few referees apply common sense depending upon the outcome and so award a foul. I guess they just go by whether a team gained an advantage rather than a specific individual. Understandably fans, me included, react to a hand ball, looking to the positioning of the arm because that is always spoken about,. Sadly, for me, VAR and the referee got the decision correct yesterday. What surprised me was that our Manager clearly did not know the current interpretation. He did appear to accept the explanation the referee gave him though. Now whether our wonderful referees and VAR officials will consistently apply that Law is by no means certain. Particularly if Celtic and Rodgers would be disadvantaged.

4. Don't anticipate the ball breaking in your direction 5. When a player out wide is about to cut the ball back, make sure you are nowhere to be seen 6. Never make a front post run 7. Don't expect to be the first subbed off, no matter how little you contribute.

Agree totally. Bowie at U21 Level looking like the real deal so maybe some striker hope for the future there. But he likely needs a bit more time to develop and learn his trade, although he seems to be a quick learner. His winner v Malta was a smart finish. Came through the SFA programme in Fife, then Raith Rovers before heading South. Maybe the system does work from time to time. Don't know if it ever happens, but I wonder if any of the outstanding prospects at U21 level get to train with the full squad if there is no game at their own level. Bowie, Doak and Johnson spring to mind. Might help with their eventual transition to the main squad. But, yes. There certainly are positives looking forward.

So quite a few more than some would have us believe. I actually agree with you re Grandparents. But until the qualification rules are altered, then Clarke is within his rights to explore that route. I forgot about Porteous. Other FIFA/UEFA agreed ways to qualify which many folk will find hard to accept is through a minimum residency period and/or spending a required number of years in our School system. I believe Islam Feruz (Celtic/Chelsea), a Somalian refugee featured at several age group levels, and, but for a home nations agreement, Tavernier of Rangers also qualifies. Not saying I agree with either, but in years to come I think there will be players coming through those routes. Just to clarify...Kieran Tierney was born in the Isle of Man and Max Johnson was born in Middlesbrough. To Scottish parents. So Scottish in my eyes, but not everybody sees it that way it seems.

Some truth in that and I share your concern regarding the apparent low numbers of emerging Scottish youth in Scotland/England's top Leagues. But your picture dismisses those youngsters that were born outside of Scotland but qualified for Scotland through having at least one Scottish parent. So the "grannie" comment is a bit misleading. If you look to those who qualify via parents, then Tierney, McTominay, Gunn, Brown, Dykes and, closer to home, Max Johnston should be regarded as having successfully come through youth systems. Both here and elsewhere. Or do you think having Scottish parents is not enough to be regarded as "Scottish" youth? Hickey, Hendry, Patterson, Gilmour and Ferguson are products of the Scottish youth system and comparatively recent additions to the squad.. You can add McGregor, Robertson, Armstrong, Christie, McLean, Souttar, Kelly and Clark if you care to go back further. All in the current squad. And the McCrorie brothers who may yet break through to the Senior Scottish side. Might not be France or England quality but more than good enough for a place in our squad in their prime. And looking at the U21s, the two players who posters on here thought excelled in the last few days were Ben Doak and Kieran Bowie. Both born in Scotland and progressing well through English youth set ups. So, again, the Grannie reference does not apply. There are likely more from that U21 team but I cannot be bothered checking. We can always do with more talent coming through, preferably Scottish born and bred, but there has been a good few in recent years and I don't believe the situation is anywhere near as dire as you suggest. And if Clarke delves deeper to find those who qualify via grandparents, then good luck to him. He would be negligent to ignore any legitimate source open to him. Off the top of my head, only Cooper and Adams are grand parent additions currently. Hardly the majority. The problem might be getting the Manager to ease out senior players to allow scope for youngsters to be introduced.

If Kelly wanted test the market as a free agent, which would be sensible, he could agree to extend his existing contract to mid July including an agreement that he gets a cut of any Euro bonus we receive. That way he gets the best of both worlds and Motherwell would also benefit if he is selected. Did we not have such an arrangement with Gallagher covering the last Euros? But that might not be required even if Kelly is OOC. Not sure if the same applies under UEFA criteria and so for the Euros, but for World Cup squad players a payment is made by FIFA to the club(s) who held a player's registration for the two years prior to his country being eliminated from the finals tournament. If that criteria applies this summer, then we are well placed. And we would also be due a cut if Max Johnson made the squad.

McAllister - Too nice a guy Muscat - Thug but a decent record as a Manager Davies - Would argue with his shadow and always falls out with Board and players. There is a reason he has been unemployed for so long. Would cause havoc. So clearly Davies is the man.

Agree 100%. With the ability in our midfield hopefully Bair can win enough ball to provide them with some decent chances. Sadly, on that pitch, Livi have shown that getting the ball forward quickly and long is pretty effective. Not pretty, but effective. Don't think I have ever seen a decent game of football break out on that surface.

There’s not really any debate about Bair though, is there? Everybody agrees with just about everything you have posted. From his previous record, to the fact his signing made no sense, to the fact he would not be anywhere near first choice had anyone else been available or showed any ability to score goals. You have more than justified your criticism and backed it up. If you care to scroll back you will see that, when he signed, I agreed with your concerns. I still do, although I acknowledge what he does add to the team in the absence of a better option. But having expressed your views my point is that you appear unable to let it go until such time as the situation resolves itself one way or another. And that is Steelboy like. So, no, my observation was not “a lazy attempt at shutting down debate”. It was a way of saying that there is no debate and repeating those concerns time and time again is pointless. Again, nobody really disagrees with you. So you are debating with yourself. But ok, as far as Bair is concerned, unless the situation changes I’ll keep on scrolling.

I thought Steelboy was the one on this site that became obsessed with certain players. Bair appears to be your SOD or Spittal. Not quite Burrows, but getting there. Most of the time you are debating with yourself as everybody...including me....agrees with what you say. Perfectly valid comments and questioning of a risky signing policy. If I am wrong, point me towards anybody who has stated that Bair as a striker is up to the standard we require. Or even that we should have signed him in the first place......project or not. Being realistic, going on about Bair's lack of goals or his signing is going to change absolutely nothing right now. Taking into account our injury issues, the below par performance of our other strikers on admittedly limited game time, the fact our best young prospect is far from first team ready and finally the formation our Manager seems to prefer. The same formation he adopted last season. So not one introduced solely to counter this season's challenges. Every single Motherwell fan would gladly swap Bair for a regular goal scorer or welcome a structure that could facilitate a proven goal scorer being played alongside him. If either Shaw or Wilkinson is that striker then I trust Kettlewell to alter things. But nothing I have seen so far suggests that either of those players is the solution. Shaw's attempts against St Mirren and Rangers were poor and cost us points. What would you be saying if Bair had missed those chances? Wilkinson looks to have some decent ability but has no pace and dithers on the ball looking to get a shot away. He himself has said he is not a target man, despite his height. I sincerely hope my assessment of both players is wrong as all I really want is my team to win games. No matter who scores. Biereth might have been the player to replace Bair but Charles Dunne robbed us of that option for now. One thing was perfectly clear on Saturday, we were a better unit with Bair on the park than we were with Shaw and Wilkinson contributing the sum total of zero when they came on. At a time in the game when others were finding it tough to keep going I expected a bit more effort and support from both.

Don't think anybody disagrees with that. Lack of a cutting edge aside, were you encouraged by our general play over both games? And our ability to compete with teams whose budget and player quality is far ahead of what we possess. And the performance of our midfield and the often slated central defence, Rangers booed off the field despite defeating us and the obvious relief from Celtic players and fans yesterday suggests we are not the walkover we have often been. Obviously the results are extremely frustrating and questions over our forward recruitment are valid, but it looks to me like we are making solid progress in many areas.

So who would you play instead of Bair at the moment? Both Shaw and Wilkinson were pathetic when they came on and, as a result of them being unable to hold the ball or link up play, our defence and midfield were given less respite than with Bair on the pitch. As for their efforts to close down opponents? Non existent. With those two on the pitch, we had eight outfield players running their arses off while that pair strolled around without a care in the world. Bair is not a goal scorer and signing him seemed nonsensical to me. As stated endlessly on here. we are crying out for any sort of goal scorer to benefit from our general play. But on yesterdays evidence Bair contributed far more than those other two were willing to do. It's not just about ability. And if anyone is not encouraged by our performances against both Rangers and Celtic, then that is because they are determined not to be and are unwilling to acknowledge progress. Of course points are important. Nobody thinks any differently. But compared to the hidings we have suffered from both of them over recent years, yesterday and last week were a huge step forward.

I think this is what most fans would prefer. Sadly they are soon to move even further away from your proposal and go further down the route that ensures the "big" teams are guaranteed even more lucrative ties. And multiple chances to continue playing at some level if they blow it early doors. On the pretext of diminishing the threat that a European Super League proposal will raise it's head again.

Everybody is agreed Bair is not a goal scorer and if we had one ready to replace him then he would not be starting. But we don't, so he is currently our best option and the team is structured on that basis. Shaw might be that man but only time will tell. Repeatedly banging on about his shortcomings and blatantly ignoring any positive contribution is so blinkered. You were not so vocal regards Bair after the Hearts victory. Have you ever considered that, under our current circumstances, Kettlewell may be playing Bair looking for to him to assist others to take the chances he and the rest of the team create, rather than racking up KVV like numbers for himself? Kilmarnock being another positive example where Bair helped us win a game that looked lost. Was I delighted when we signed Bair? NO. Do I recognise that he has contributed towards our excellent start to the League season? YES. Do I expect him to feature in the team for ever and ever? NO. Where I do agree with you is that Kettlewell's efforts at finding a KVV replacement have fallen short. That's not really unexpected though and in truth Kettlewell did highlight how difficult that task would be. He was quite open that goals would likely have to come from other areas to compensate. And that is exactly where we are at. I assume Bair has now joined your list that includes SOD and Spittal. Players whose every mistake is shouted from the rooftops, but whose every positive contribution is ignored.

Agree Ferrie may well have potential. But let’s be realistic. He is nowhere near ready for the first team. Most obvious is how easily he gets pushed off the ball, bullied. Cannot fault his effort though. I think we have scrapped our reserve team, which is a pity as maybe that would have given Ferrie a chance to develop and mature physically in a fairly competitive setting. Not sure what he can learn at youth level. Sadly a sign of the times at most clubs. If it’s a comparison of Bair, Shaw and Ferrie. Bair is big, strong and links up well. Works his socks off. Sadly not a natural finisher as his record shows. Shaw is mobile, links up well, decent in the air, looks to have a bit of pace and has scored goals elsewhere. Admittedly he should have done better when fed by Paton. Given more game time he is likely to be our top scoring striker this season. Ferrie has potential but that’s it at the moment. If Obika and Wilkinson are ever fit again, then they will also be ahead of him in the queue and for me that speaks volumes. Like you I was in despair when we signed Bair, looking his record elsewhere. I saw it as a waste of limited funds. Unlike you I am trying to move on from that and recognise what he does contribute to the team. Tynecastle and yesterday proved that he can add value. But somehow Kettlewell has to find him a goal scoring partner to play alongside him which might be a challenge given our preferred formation. Had we won yesterday, I doubt we would be having this debate today. If Bair is eventually dropped, then Shaw seems the best option to me.

I don't understand what this MJC abuse is all about. Seems personal from what I have read and not solely based on his comments. I don't know him or anything about him other than what he posts on here, but for some reason he has got under a few folks skin. Is it because he gave his honest view regarding Hearts being a club with their own identity who have a large fan base? Or because in his opinion they can generate a great atmosphere in a stadium whose construction helps to make it an intimidating experience for visiting teams and fans? Or is it because he personally has not had any run ins with their fans? Or is it because he does not hate them like he is meant to? I think everything he said is accurate no matter how unpalatable some may find his honesty. And I have not read one response that provided any evidence he is wrong. He also commented that all Clubs have a small proportion of fans who can cause issues. That is also true and it is fact that Motherwell are no exception. Some on here appear to take exception to that home truth. And before I also get slaughtered, I thought our fans on Sunday were fantastic...before, during and after the game. As they have been all season at any game I have attended. I do get that MJC comes across as overly negative at times, especially when forecasting the result of an upcoming fixture. I actually find his predictions quite amusing and his about turn when he is proven entirely wrong even more so. Dare I say that might be just his way of having a wee laugh. I detest that bloody song Hearts fans sing. To many bad memories. So I disagree with him on that front. But it is part of their identity and it is miles better than anything we have produced. I certainly don't believe a rendition of 'Up The Well' on Saturday would inspire any of our players or encourage the home support to join in. And it certainly did not last long as part of the set pre match entertainment a few years ago. I also disagree with his opinion of International football but he is entitled to his view. I know a few folk who agree with him, for a number of reasons. I understood a Fan Forum was a place where fans could post their opinions on all things football. Mostly about their own club but also about football in general, including opposition Clubs. MJC's Hearts comments were made in the Hearts match day thread so I see nothing wrong with that. Am I wrong? Or is Steelmen Online a forum where being positive about any other Club leaves you open to abuse, no matter how well you back up those comments. Even from someone labelled as a Moderator? Similarly if you express any negativity regards Motherwell or our fans. Nobody is going to agree 100% with everything that is posted and that is fair enough and expected. Healthy in many ways. That should stimulate a reasoned debate and an interesting discussion but that is certainly not the case this time around. In my humble opinion some folk need to take a good long look at themselves and maybe even grow up a touch.

Just checked back what Martindale actually said. Livi's share of VAR costs was £200k after finishing mid table. So a bit less than I quoted, but more than initially suggested under that sliding scale when it was being promoted. No surprise there. I wonder if Clubs think they got value for money? For a good few Clubs the knock on effect on budgets must have been substantial.

Exactly this. Martindale at Livi spoke in similar terms a couple of days ago regarding the need to balance the books. He put a figure on Livi's situation saying he had to find £400k, by whatever means he could......player sales, contracts cancelled or renegotiated, additional sponsorship as examples. In other words a mix of reduced expenditure and increased income. I think many Clubs are similar in that contracts cancelled does not equate to all, or in some cases any, savings being available to the Manager for player investment. What I found scary was that £250k of their shortfall was purely down to the introduction of VAR. I assume we have a similar cost in that regard.

Personalities play a big part amongst those middle ranking clubs. We got more than our share of media coverage under Burrows, often due to initiatives or innovations he supported. Whereas the only time I recall St Mirren getting a look in during those years was when Burrow's counterpart (John Needham) made an ill advised comment regards Rangers fans and the River Clyde following a Celtic defeat. Other than the big five clubs mentioned I think it is more or less equal coverage for us lesser lights. Kettlewell seems to have a decent relationship with the BBC and has featured fairly often. McFadden and (Cantwell comments aside) Foster contribute regularly and are not shy about bigging up Motherwell. So I don't think we are that hard done to.