dennyc

Ok. I'll play the game although it is probably pointless. After all, some on here appear to think you cannot voice an opinion unless you are a qualified football coach. I thought Football Forums were all about fan opinion and healthy debate where opinions differed. Or maybe it's just that on this Forum it's frowned upon to dare to have an opinion which questions our Club? Anyway, here goes. From the current reserve team, and setting aside Scott and Maguire who hopefully we can agree to consider as members of the first team squad, from what I have seen I don't think anyone has yet displayed the talent/potential of Turnbull or Hastie. Adam Livingstone and Liam Brown of the more senior players and the slightly younger Jamie Semple are the players who stand out for me. But all three have have a little way to go if they are to have the impact of the youngsters who broke through this season. Following Craigen's departure and substantial changes to the squad, it's very much a rebuilding process at that level and only time will tell if we have a few more gems in our ranks. Reece McAlear was recently promoted and is highly regarded. But it's very early days in his case. Only my humble opinion of course. I have not seen much of the players below Reserve Team level but I understand there are a few that are on the radar of other Clubs. Rangers and Celtic for example. McKinstrey has already agreed to join Leeds. Fairly common for players of that age to switch Clubs and clearly senior success is even less guaranteed. Liam Brown, for instance, joined us from Queens Park, although he was a bit further advanced and had first team experience. Motherwell's success at youth level has been noted by many and our coaching and scouting staff are much respected. Talking of Rangers, does the name Murray Miller ring a bell with anyone? He left us a couple of seasons ago and is currently starring in midfield for Rangers U17 and is a Scottish Internationalist. They recently became the first British team to win The Alkass International Cup, a tournament featuring teams such as Real Madrid, Bayern, Roma , PSV and Spartak Moscow. Miller was a standout and has been earmarked as one most likely to make it all the way. We received a Development Fee of around £30k for him, which I suppose is a fair amount for someone so young. So I accept that youngsters do switch clubs, sometimes for family reasons which I understand was a factor in Miller's case. Turning to safeguarding investment in younger players, a friend who has a link to Hibs, told me that towards the end of each season they strictly assess the entire Reserve Team squad in an effort to identify players who have the ability and application to make it all the way. A select few are then offered three year contracts. Not at first team rates but at a higher rate than the basic Reserve Team wage. The agreement is that when they make their expected breakthrough to the first team, the Contract will be revisited and a wage increase negotiated. Seems a good strategy to me but perhaps a three year deal might be a step to far for some Clubs. I think Mackie who came on for Gray on Saturday and did well was one of the youngsters who came through that process. Porteous was another.

Do you think it would have been wise to offer Hastie increased terms last summer, when he was going on loan to Alloa? Say, from £250 PW to £500 PW . A question you did not answer. The overall cost increase would not have beeen massive. The reference to more senior player contracts ( Sammon and Taylor-Sinclair as examples) is a pointer to where I believe money should have been better invested. And would have resulted in a better return. Less of a risk if you like. I don't regard Newell as one of those senior players, but rather a youth player, inferior to Hastie, whose contract was extended ahead of a sensible offer being made to Hastie. So funds were available. I hope I am wrong , but I believe Hastie will sign a Pre Contract Agreement with Rangers this week for a wage that blows us out the water. We will end up with decent compensation, but a great deal lower than it would have been 9 months down the line. Rangers continue to rebuild ,are aggressively recruiting, and we will not be the only Club to see a player head in that direction. Kilmarnock already with Jones and soon Aberdeen when Shinnie signs. Best move for Jake? Possibly not, Best move for Motherwell? Definately not. But sadly money talks. It could have been worse though. The Club's decisions could have robbed us of Turnbull as well.

Players are loaned out at various stages of their development, with Hastie's spell at Alloa being a move up to Championship level and a far greater test than his spell at Airdrie, and with the definate intention of getting him first team ready. To compare it to placing numerous players on loan with lower league clubs is misleading. Do you think it would have been wise to extend Hastie's contract by twelve months at reasonable cost when he was loaned out to Alloa? Given that he had progressed well through all stages of development and was close to breaking into the first team, as stated by Craigen and Robinson when he joined Alloa. Clubs like Rangers, Celtic ....and several English Clubs it now appears....closely monitor youth development throughout Scotland so it is no surprise that a highly rated talent such as Hastie attracts immediate attention when he makes an impact like he has. Rangers previously attempted to sign him up at age 16. I think given those circumstances it would have been sensible to protect our investment in Hastie rather than sign up bench players, one of which did not even last beyond January. And let's not forget signing up Newell for another year. Sensible use of limited resources? I hardly think so.

Who mentioned a long term contract at that stage? Hastie has come through numerous age groups at Motherwell, surviving as dozens of others fell by the wayside. He was surely worthy of a year's extension to ensure we were protected if he made that final step up. I accept that step up was achieved 6 months earlier than anticipated but we exposed ourselves by letting his contract run down to such an extent. Ditto Turnbull. And, as indicated by Craigen and Robinson, Hastie was loaned out to Alloa with a view to preparing him for the first team. He had outgrown the youth team and needed to compete at a higher, tougher level. So he was not as far away from the first team as you suggest. In fact, had he not already featured? Similar to McGuire on loan at QOS. And Hastie's game time at Alloa was carefully managed by Craigen and Goodwin to ensure he could also get game time at Motherwell, to monitor his progress. You either trust in your youth and your planning, or you don't. Hastie and Turnbull were clearly earmarked as two that had an above average chance. Instead of protecting our investment of some 13 years we opted to utilise scarce resources to allow the likes of Taylor-Sinclair and Sammon to sit on the Bench, at best. Well, how did that work out? Nobody is saying that anybody who has a couple of good games for the youth/reserve team should have cash thrown at them. But we should protect exceptional talent that we have invested many years in developing.

I'm still waiting to hear whether you think Hastie might just have signed a new contract last Summer had he been offered one. When he had already been earmarked as a player with a better chance than most of making it. And at a time when their was a buzz about the place having reached two Cup Finals. That seems to be the point some people are making and which you seem keen to ignore. Of course you can't make players sign. We all know that. But the timing of any offer can make a huge difference and the Club may well have blown it with Hastie. I wonder what you would be saying if Turnbull had opted to leave as well, also belatedly having been offered an extended contract. Talent like Turnbull and Hastie possess is a rarity, particularly at a relatively small Club like Motherwell. And please don't compare them to the likes of Dom Thomas and Luke Watt. They are both way beyond that level

Not exactly as bad as you suggest per the SPFL rules dated 8 October 2018. There are time limits. "Unless otherwise agreed between the Clubs concerned, such agreed terms being set out in writing, signed by both Clubs and lodged with the Secretary, the balance or balances of Compensation, plus VAT at the standard rate, must be paid within 28 days of the date of publication of a Compensation Tribunal determination or, when an award in appropriate terms has been made by the Compensation Tribunal, of the occurrence or the relevant event or events. The Board may require interest to be paid on any balance or balances of Compensation from time to time due for payment and not paid until paid in full, at the rate of 2% above the base lending rate of the Bank of England as same may vary from time to time compounded on the first day of each calendar month" Elsewhere they specify that prior to the Tribunal, when the player is registered by the new team...... "In the event of the two Clubs concerned not reaching agreement on the amount of any Compensation payable, the new Club must, on the date of Scottish FA Registration or, if later, on the date of any first offer of Compensation, pay to the Player's former Club at least 50% of the highest amount offered or, as the case may be, offered, plus VAT at the standard rate. All offers of Compensation shall be in writing and shall be copied to the Secretary by recorded delivery post when they are sent to the Player’s former Club. In the event that the amount of Compensation ordered to be paid by a Compensation Tribunal is less than the amount previously paid in terms of this Rule F9 or if no Compensation is ordered to be so paid then the Club which has received such payment shall be liable to forthwith repay as a debt the amount overpaid or, where no payment is so ordered to be paid, the amount paid, to the Club which made such payment." So in the case of Ferguson to Aberdeen, Accies were entitled to receive the balance of the full fee of £237950 no later than 28 days from the Tribunal finding. And should earlier have received £50k (Half of what Aberdeen offered) when Ferguson was registered as a player by Aberdeen in time to play against Burnley.

In recent years Motherwell have had an excellent youth policy, when it comes to identifying and developing young players. As is common, some will reach a higher level than others. If, very shortly, 7 of the first team have been produced by our youth programme, then that will be a magnificent achievement and the Club deserve great credit. What concerns some is that in early January 2019 four of those exceptional talents were in a position to sign Pre Contract Agreements with whoever they liked and leave us with a much poorer financial return than anticipated and much weaker from a playing point of view. Fortunately three of those players opted to remain with us and hopefully the fourth will also go down that line. We got lucky this time, but really we should not have been exposed to such an extent.

Straight question which you have not addressed so far. If Motherwell had had the foresight to offer Hastie (and Turnbull ) extended contracts in the summer when the whole Club was on a high after two Cup Finals, do you think two exceptional players making their way in the game would have jumped at a decent offer with the strong possibilty of first team football in the near future? Our coaches had already identified both as players close to breaking into our first team. As an aside, to compare them with the likes of Thomas, Watt etc is like comparing apples with oranges. Even if ignoring the gulf in quality, and taking into account only attitude. If you want to compare them with anybody, can I suggest McFadden, McAllister and Murphy as youngsters. We are led to believe the Club was not in a position to make such offers in the Summer as all available funds were utilised to hand extended contracts to the likes of Newell and Gordon and bring in players such as Taylor-Sinclair, and Sammon on loan. Our Manager sought to strengthen the bench with those players rather than trust home grown youth. We were then repeatedly told that no further funds would be available until some players left. Ironically Taylor-Sinclair was then one of the players that left in January. If offers had been made to Hastie and Turnbull last August , and declined, then ,yes, your argument would hold water. You most certainly cannot make players sign. But the point you appear to overlook is that it seems no such offers were made as a different strategy was followed. At whose insistence we cannot be sure. That decision could ultimately cost the Club a fortune if Hastie goes on to have the career anticipated. Possibly losing out on McKinstrey in the long term is a bit more understandable as he was not as far advanced as others, But to run the risk of losing out on Hastie and Turnbull by allowing their contracts to run down to such an extent was negligent. And no, I don't think that every youth player who shows a modicum of talent should be signed up on the Dundee Utd model. But I do think every possible effort should be made to tie up exceptional talents such as Turnbull and Hastie before it gets to the stage that they can sign PCAs and walk away for a pittance compared to their potential future value. Particularly when those players had already turned down much bigger Clubs when signing for Motherwell previously. Unless of course you know for a fact that they were offered improved terms before January 2019 and refused to sign.

Last summer the Club was on a high after reaching two Cup Finals. The feel good factor was there and things should have been looking rosy for younger players looking to break into the first team . Craigen developed a youth/reserve team that was joy to watch, the players appeared to be having fun as well as learning required skills and attitude. Within that team there were at least four players with a much greater than average chance of making a very good career for themselves. To compare the likes of Turnbull , Hastie, Scott and McGuire to the likes of Watt and Thomas and even Erwin is just clouding the issue for justification purposes. Setting aside their undoubted greater ability, the current crop's attitude alone makes them a grade or two above those three. There is no comparison. The policy of utilising supposedly scarce funds on the likes of Sammon,, Taylor-Sinclair, Newell, Gordon was short sighted and whoever made those decisions blundered. I agree you cannot make players sign but does anyone honestly believe that last July those four youngsters would not have jumped at the chance of three year contracts and inclusion in the first team squad? And possibly on lesser terms than we recently extended to Turnbull and Scott. And the argument is also put forward that it was less risky financially to opt for Sammon etc. Well how exactly did that work out? Hopefully Hastie and McGuire do extend their contracts and the lack of belief/trust shown by the decision makers last summer acts as a lesson learned and does not hurt us too much financially. Or, from a fan perspective, on the pitch. Talent like Turnbull and Hastie does not come along that often and we cannot afford to lose it through our own inactivity and lack of foresight.

Motherwell now paying the admission fee on Saturday for those that went on Wednesday. Well done

Was there last night and disappointed that Killie did not stick to what they agreed. However, Killie are entitled to charge the full £22 if they want to. So £5, although annoying, is a fair concession. Several seasons ago Dundee Utd charged full admission price in similar circumstances. Thankfully not against us. Now if you think our own Club should make a gesture, how about they allow the voucher (to include those people who Killie took note of) to represent £5 towards a Fir Park ticket this season or towards a Season Ticket next season? A nice way to recognise the fans who made the worthless trip yesterday.

Jack Charlton v Leeds and possibly Gerson v Flamengo. Both in floodlit friendlies in 1960 I think

Livingstone had played for the Under 20s/Reserve team two days previously. OK, only 45 minutes, but that was probably a factor.....which Robinson ignored in his post match comments. Livingstone was unlucky that he had to end up playing for so much of the Celtic game. I'm sure he would have done fine if he had only been called upon for the last 20 minutes or so. I wonder how many others had played in a competitive match only two days earlier.

I think it is only right that the Club continue to honour the contract of a player injured whilst carrying out his contractual duties as long as he is adhering to an agreed recovery programme. I doubt whether, legally, there is any alternative. Also, if there is a reasonable expectation of him returning to fitness shortly after his current contract expires, I think it would be fair and reasonable to offer him a final short term contract of say 6 months, After that I would imagine there will be Insurance Cover which will kick in if his career is over due to that injury. I understand there is a history of players having to call it a day to collect a decent payment rather than prolonging matters trying to endlessly get fit to play.

Maybe as someone suggested earlier there are exceptions up to a higher limit if the players involved are U21? I remember the Rangers Newcastle dealings as well. Rather than performance I think that was all about Ashley reducing the wage bill at his big club and ripping of Rangers at the same time. Otherewise I'm sure Mark McGhee would have losded our team with top players from Bayern Munich and other German clubs.

Dont know the rules buf common sense would suggest any one team in the league cannot loan more than one player to any other team in the same Division. Otherwise , as an example, with Celtic being challenged by Rangers, Celtic with a massive squad loan three players each to Aberdeen and Kilmarnock so they can play against Rangers but not Celtic. Or, if there is an affinity between two clubs or Managers, a club in trouble like Dundee borrow 5 players from from Aberdeen and they then catch us. And can you imagine the implosion up here if Liverpool had loaned Solanki, Clyne, Matip and a few others to Rangers this January in addition to Kent who is already at Ibrox. All very unlikely to happen but there has to bs a limit just in case. Maybe lower within the league than cross border

Hughie Ferguson would be a great nomination for The Scottish Football Hall of Fame . Although individuals can make a nomination, I wonder if that's something The Well Society could take on board as it might carry a bit more weight coming from such a high profile body. Ferguson certainly merits a place when you consider the likes of Frank McLintock was entered some time ago. Although McLintock had a good career at Arsenal, I don't think he ever played at a senior level in Scotland and he only ever received a handful of caps. Tommy Docherty is another inductee with little playing time in Scotland and limited success on the field or as a Manager. Sailor Hunter is also mentioned in the article about Ferguson and his record of managing Motherwell for 35 years could also merit his inclusion.

£20 sent via Paypal. Well done Iain

Finally found the details I was thinking of regarding share out % of League monies.This was agreed by all Clubs other than Celtic who insisted on receiving their full payment as guaranteed League winners. It was a one season only arrangement but it did happen and Aberdeen were party go it. Permanent changes to share out and voting were not voted upon as Aberdeen indicated they would side with Celtic to provide the required number of “no” votes to block such changes. As you say, presumably because they were looking to finish second for a good number of years. League position at end of Season 2012/13 % of 2012/13Net Commercial Revenues 1. 17.0% (was 17% last year) 2. 10.5% (was 15% last year) 3. 9.5% ( was 9.5% last year) 4. 9.0% (up 0.5 % on last year ) 5. 8.5% (up 0.5 % on last year ) 6. 8.0% (up 0.5 % on last year ) 7. 7.5% (up 0.5 % on last year ) 8. 7.0% (up 0.5 % on last year ) 9. 6.5% (up 0.5 % on last year ) 10. 6.0% (up 0.5 % on last year ) 11. 5.5% (up 0.5 % on last year ) 12. 5.0% (up 0.5 % on last year ) That’s my understanding anyway. Apologies if it’s bollocks.

I thought James Scott’s brief appearances were the most encouraging part of the pre season games. I know he is still young but he looked strong and smart enough. I was looking forward to him getting a few run outs this season, probably off the bench for 20 minutes or so. Ah well, there’s always next pre season. I wish Sammon no I’ll will and hope he contributes. But hardly a signing to get the juices flowing.

I thought the change to the distribution of monies did take place for that one season. By finishing second we actually received less than we would have had under the usual distribution rules. We played fair with the other teams and it was us that made the biggest sacrifice. Celtic refused to reduce the winners’ share. Maybe Aberdeen refused a more permanent change but the monies were adjusted from second down. And that Included where Aberdeen ended up.

I thought everyone but Celtic agreed to the adjustment to the league position monies. Aberdeen scuppered the efforts to change the rule that meant two "No" votes resulted in no change. In effect when the OF were both in the top league, by voting together they could fight off any proposal that weakened their position. With Rangers gone, it seemed likely that the number of votes required to deny change would be increased (as Celtic would be on their own) thus making it a fairer position when Rangers inevitably returned to the top flight. Aberdeen stated publically that they would support Celtic in not supporting any such change and at that stage the whole thing was dropped without a vote taking place. A chance well and truely missed.

Replace Frear with Taylor-Sinclair and bring in Dunne and I could go with that. Given his form after the Winter break I just cannot understand why anyone in their right mind would dump Dunne. Seems like there are still a lot of haters out there, irrespective of how he performs. But I think Robinson will definitely start with McHugh and I'm not convinced Johnson is here to sit on the bench. Also I suspect Tanner will need time to get properly match fit. But isn't it refreshing to have decent options. Good luck Mr Robinson

From what I can gather O'Halloran is off to Australia. To be announced next week after final details sorted out. Pity.

Sadly I believe Livingstone are tearing up an excellent grass pitch to replace it with an artificial surface. Seemingly it's an attempt to reduce ongoing costs. Hopefully I have been misinformed,