dennyc

Ripley is a young keeper who is improving with every game he plays. Like every youngster he is prone to the odd error, but it appears he is willing to learn from his mistakes. Give me that any time if the only options are Samson or Twardzik, both of whom have a history of errors, have reached their peak and give little encouragement that any improvement is likely given game time. If possible, keep Ripley beyond January and do a deal to terminate Twardzik's contract.

Attended the meeting last night and came away with a mixture of positive and negative feelings. The first part of the Society portion was devoted to a promotional video and then Jim McMahon explaining the history of the Society and detailing how the involvement of Les Hutchison had impacted both MFC and Society. He confirmed the Society had committed to inject an additional £350k to the Club and also Guarantee the Loans provided by LH. It appears the Board had little option but to agree, if LH was to come on board. In truth there was little new information but at least some things were confirmed. The rest of the meeting was devoted to questions from the audience. My feeling (but those that were there will have their own opinion) was that the panel members were a lot less comfortable with that, unscripted, part of the evening, on at least one occasion disagreeing amongst themselves which looked poor. Questions were answered, but sometimes only after persistence from the questioner and at times it appeared to me as if there was an uncertainty about how detailed an answer should be given. Also, once or twice, panel members seemed to take matters personally which didn't help. Probably just me, but I couldn't help feeling that, in the mind of some of the Board, the meeting was about answering criticism rather than a genuine effort at open communication. The wee dig at Online Forums leaps to mind. I was surprised at how little involvement the Chairman had in the discussions. I thought it was fair enough to prioritise audience questions, but unfortunately that resulted in there being no time left to cover the questions submitted by those unable to attend. It might be that those questions were covered anyway, but maybe not. As I was leaving I suggested that answers to all questions whether asked during the evening or by EMail should be put on the web site as soon as possible. So what was confirmed? As far as I can remember, and in no particular order, - 1. The Society has fulfilled it's initial obligation under the Hutchison agreement by providing a Loan of £350 to MFC. There is no requirement to inject further funds, so the Society balances will grow month by month. When LH is fully repaid, all shares will be transferred to the Society for £1 in total. Society Funds grew by £9k last month. 2. MFC are responsible for all payments to LH. Only if the Football Club is unable to make the scheduled payments will the Society funds be utilised under the terms of the Guarantee. The next payment is due in December and the Club will have no difficulty in meeting that obligation. 3. The Society has loaned MFC £500k to date. In an attempt to protect Society funds in the event of MFC entering Administration, the Board undertook to investigate whether it would be possible to Secure the loans by way of a Charge over the assets of MFC. Les Hutchison and John Boyle are protected in this manner so it seems fair and reasonable that the Society be given the same safeguard. 4. MFC are gradually and carefully reducing expenditure so as to maintain stability, particularly player budget. Should be breaking even in around a year's time now that the correct structures are in place. The return of Rangers next season will assist greatly re gate income and sponsorship monies. I was a bit uncertain as to whether the sale of one player a year was essential to a return to profit or whether that was the icing on the cake. Jim McMahon seemed to start by saying it was essential and then suggested the budget changes would take care of it given a reasonable season on the field. 5. LH wants to see 1000 "active" Society Members to demonstrate sufficient support for fan ownership. The Society Board see 2000 "active" members as a target to aspire to. Nobody was able to really identify what exactly qualified as an "active" Member and how success could be quantified in that manner. Some of the audience felt that total funds collected allied to the number of members was a more meaningful measurement of success. The Board undertook to publish both Membership uptake and funds collected on a monthly basis for all to see. 6. 60% of Season Ticket holders are not members of the Society. They are to be specifically targeted by way of phone calls and EMails. The majority (I think) of those that joined the Society at the outset do not contribute on a monthly basis. I'm not sure of the exact numbers quoted so perhaps someone can confirm? 7. MFC were forced to sell Jamie Murphy on the cheap to ensure the payment of player wages. Sheffield United knew the situation and used it to their advantage. However, a sell on clause was agreed and resulted in the receipt of an additional £180k when Jamie moved to Brighton. Bearing in mind that he was soon to be out of contract, it wasn't really that bad a deal. 8. Doubts were raised regarding the viability of the Society taking over the ownership of the Club in the absence of a considerable Reserve Fund to cover short term Cash Flow difficulties. Say, for instance, all Society monies were required to repay Mr Hutchison. Jim McMahon indicated that he felt a balance of around £1m would be advisable and he suggested this was possible, providing MFC returned to profit and Society membership grew. As I said, my take on things and I will have missed something. But there you have it. Will I be setting up my Monthly Direct Debit? Not quite yet but I may do so depending on what steps are taken following the meeting and whether the promised improvement in communication and openness takes place. Time will tell.

Bob Crampsey. Football encyclopedia

Yeah, Tom feely as mentioned in a previous post. And it is good news that some of the Club's debt to Mr Hutchison has been repaid. Which of the Loans was actually partly repaid does matter though. It is in the Society's interest to see the arrears eliminated ASAP as that is one of the three strikes required to allow Mr Hutchison to opt out of his agreement to sell his shares to the Society for £1. Alternatively, if his additional Loan is not secured, it is in Mr H's interest to have that more at risk Loan repaid ahead of his protected Loan. He may of course have agreed to disregard the defaulted payment from June in view of the recent sum handed over. We don't know though. Just struck me. John Boyle was due (I think) £10k in June under the same repayment programme. Wonder if that payment was made. A question for next week perhaps

I was told the full £180k was part repayment of additional funds provided by Les Hutchison. I believe the "extra" he put in was around £350k. No mention was made of the arrears, although hopefully that has been sorted out in view of the 3 strikes threat. Unless I missed it, we just don't know. It looks like the priority is repayment of the monies not specifically covered by the original Security over the assets. Another 3 or 4 Lee Erwins and we might see some repayment of the help provided by the Society.

Correct. The Society has not yet made any direct payments to Mr Hutchison. But I think the point is that the Society Board committed to do so if the Club are unable to stick to the agreed repayment schedule. Admittedly, a gun was held to their heads. And almost immediately after that guarantee was given, MFC (and the Society?) default on the relatively small payment due in June...per Mr Hutchison's own press release to the Daily Mail. We can only assume that the arrears have since been paid..( The £180k payment, however welcome, was totally unrelated). We are left to guess whether MFC and The Society are still in a default situation as that has not been clarified.....via the Daily Mail or otherwise. And remember, three strikes and Mr Hutchison reserves the right to take whatever action he deems appropriate. Communication!

My word, what a lot of reading. A few nerves appear to have been hit but at least it's good to see such passion. Kind of suggests that we all want the same thing at the end of the day. I also think the majority of fans are aware of the situation when Mr Hutchison came on board and are thankful he did so. However, A few questions specifically for "wearemotherwell" 1. Do you think it's reasonable for current/potential Members to enquire whether the Football Club is either trading profitably or on track to do so, before donating more of their hard earned cash? You correctly state that the Society are the fall back should the Club fail to meet the scheduled Loan repayments to Mr Hutchison. However, IF the Club are continuing to incur losses on a monthly basis, then any additional funds collected by the Society are likely to disappear very quickly and I wonder how much would be available to meet the defaulted Loan payments. Confirmation that Society funds are likely to grow now or in the very near future, even if it is to facilitate repayment of Mr Hutchison, would surely encourage people to invest. 2. Do you think it is reasonable for Members to expect that any loans provided by the Society to MFC should be protected against the possibility of the Club entering Administration? A horrible thought, but a situation that must be considered. Mr Hutchison made damn sure he was covered against all eventualities by not only taking security over the Club's Assets but also insisting that any Society monies would revert to him if the Club could not meet it's commitment to him. Belt and Braces as they say. I accept the Society had no real choice given the circumstances at the time and that Mr H was in a very strong position to dictate his terms. John Boyle's Loan of £350k is also secured. I understand that the Society has loaned around £650k (apologies if that sum is not exact) with no repayment to date. However, unlike others, the Society has no security whatsoever and, in the event of Administration, it is debatable whether anything could be recovered. I think the Board should have acted in the interest of their Members and insisted that all loans be secured in the same manner as was insisted upon by Mr H and Mr B. It can still be done retrospectively with the agreement of Messrs Hutchison and Boyle. Confirmation that Society monies could be recovered in the event of Administration for use by future owners would also encourage people to invest. 3. With regard to Secrecy and Lack of Information, would you agree that it is unusual for those subjects to be discussed at Board meetings of both The Society and MFC, the decision being taken by both bodies that more openness was required? That is the reason for recent, more detailed Communications from the Society/Club Chairman and Les Hutchison. One thing cannot be denied, following discussions on this forum and elsewhere more information has become available. Hopefully that trend continues as the perception of secrecy and limited information release does little to encourage investment. And yes, some people will continue to make donations no matter what because of their love for our Club. I respect them for that. I just wonder how much more could be collected if potential donors were reassured regarding points 1 to 3?

Fair enough G&F and understandable. I'll just have to wait and see if Tom Feely's willingness to listen and attempt to effect change is shared by his Board colleagues. That's the real test I guess. I'm not ready to give in just yet, but thenI've not had the kick in the nuts you got.

Finally had a discussion with Tom Feely regarding my concerns. Have to say he came across as a genuine guy who shared many of our frustrations. Some of my questions regarding finances and Governance he was able to answer and others he needed to check out. We also discussed my (and some others) perception of the Society and the Board. There is a Society board meeting tomorrow and he promised to get back to me to supply more detailed answers and respond to a few suggestions/observations I made for Board consideration. When I hear how the Board respond to my comments I intend to share both my suggestions/comments and their response. Meantime, I can pass on the following information I was given which may be of interest. Doesn't answer everything, but it's a start. 1 Both Society and Club Boards recently agreed that more openness was essential. Some information is commercially sensitive, but wherever possible more effort will be made to keep us informed. The recent Chairman's update being a first attempt at this. 2 The payment of £180k to LH came from Club income and definitely not from Society Funds. Possibly transfer funds. 3 John Boyle is still owed a substantial amount (£350k?) from a Loan he provided. As long as the Club is adequately funded he is not looking for anything other than the agreed repayment schedule. He no longer holds any shares in MFC. 4 Les Hutchison and John Boyle hold Security over the Club's Assets and repayment of their loans is as laid out on schedule posted on this thread previously. 5 The £42 k donation from the Society to MFC related to a payment for benefits taken up by Society Members. The Club were due reimbursement from Renewal Fees as per an arrangement set up by Ms Dempster. A one off payment. 6 Several Loans have been made to MFC by The Society. None have been repaid as, when income has been received, it has been required elsewhere. It is still the intention that all Loan monies will eventually be returned to the Society. (Roll on Marv's £3m transfer to Arsenal!). I suggested that the Loans could no longer be regarded as short term and should therefore be Secured ASAP with The Society being included in the Bond and Floating Charge. We discussed Board Responsibilities, Perception, Communication, MFC's return to profitability and Mr Hutchison's influence. I followed up our meeting with a comprehensive Email which Tom agreed to present to the Board tomorrow. OK not an answer to everything and some stuff we either knew or suspected. But I was encouraged by Tom's willingness to listen to my concerns and take them forward. It was also positive to hear him say I could share our discussion with you guys. More to follow hopefully.

A thought provoking presentation which clearly took a sizeable effort, both in research and in the putting together of a reasoned, constructive argument. The fact you received no feedback, whether positive or negative, is shocking and must have been soul destroying. Perhaps the novel, inventive approach you were championing was far too radical for your audience and may even have left them feeling threatened in some way. Whatever, you deserve credit for at least trying to be of help. Given that the initiatives you outline require a joint approach from Club and Society, I wonder if you might receive a better welcome from some of the Club Board. Someone with Business experience outside the football environment and a willingness to challenge routine, outdated practices. Dare I say it, Les Hutchison or maybe Derek Weir if he is still an active member of the current set-up. Worth a try? Anyway, good effort and thanks for sharing

I think the constitution might have been amended in that I understand it now requires 10% of the Membership to call for an EGM whereas previously it was 5% of Membership. That seems reasonable enough given that it was agreed that anyone signing up would have immediate voting rights once their first monthly payment went through. For instance The Society could have been open to an organised group signing up and after one month calling for an EGM. Increasing the % reduces that possibility. In actual people terms 5% of Adult membership is not that much and at £5 a head it was possible, if unlikely. I understand the aims listed on the Web Site were amended as Steelboy suggests. I think to include the bit about helping the Club to pay it's Loans. I don't have a copy of the original Aims and Objectives, so regarding the change I am working from memory. Apologies if I have got it wrong on that front

In June this year, between them the Club and Society could not cobble together £40k to meet a loan repayment.....so said by Mr Hutchison to the Daily Mail. According to a previous post, when Security over the Club's assets was registered in January we owed Les £650k and John Boyle £350k. In the recent statement Les confirms that his debt rose to over £1m for the good reasons listed. No mention of JB having been repaid. On a positive note, £180k has been repaid to LH recently. Perhaps from Erwins transfer fee, perhaps from SPL income or perhaps with help from the Society. It seems unlikely the money came from week to week operations so that suggests we will need another Erwin like boost before the next sizeable payment falls due. Remember the repayment schedule was drawn up when we owed Mr H "only" £650k. Have the payments due gone up in line with the increased debt? That is relevant to Society members as the Society has responsibility for making sure payments are made on time. Now, I know we cannot expect miracles and it will take time for the Club to return to profitability on a regular basis. But are we getting there, are we on track, are we close to breaking even? Are monthly operational outgoings covered by regular monthly income? I don't know the answers to the financial questions, but it appears The Society Board and Les want the fans to dig deeper without the reassurance that the Society funds are likely to remain relatively untouched (and therefore grow)in the near future. One other point to consider, originally we were told loans by the Society would be short term and repaid as a matter of urgency. That was a massive selling point to many fans. Has the short term nature of the funding now been abandoned in favour of repaying Mr H? I had hoped to clarify some of the above during the phone call I was promised from Tom Feely, hopefully setting my mind at ease. Not to be it seems.

If I do have an axe to grind, it's not with the concept of the Well Society or the original ambition of establishing a Contingeancy Fund to support the Club through difficult times. That's why I was happy to contribute early doors and, following Les' assistance, was seriously considering contributing further on a monthly basis. However, following extensive discussion on this site and elsewhere I had doubts as to whether the original idea of a back up fund still existed or even if that was still possible. For Society monies to accumulate, the Club has to return to profitability and, in an ideal situation, be able to repay Mr Hutchison without recourse to the Society. Are we anywhere near that situation or are we at least "on track". Projections must have been produced when Mr Hutchison came on board. My concern is that the Society Board appear to have taken ownership of the debt and that repaying Mr Hutchison is their only real objective. Meantime, the Club continue to operate at a loss and therefore Society funds continue to be drained for day to day survival or to support the loan repayment schedule. Before I contribute further I only wish to be convinced that our original objective remains and is realistic. I also do not want any further contributions to disappear almost immediately, possibly never to be returned. One of my basic questions was " What is our current balance and by how much is it increasing each month?" Does anyone really think that is information we are not entitled to? So setting aside the broken promises and lack of meaningful communication I am actually still on board....just. Regarding the meeting in November, I was told that because of the volume of questions that current and prospective members had. A meeting was being arranged to address ALL issues. I do accept that having a joint meeting will in all likelihood attract a greater audience, but it will restrict discussion on Society matters and is not what was originally suggested. So, not the rankings of a paranoid, disaffected Member, but I instead genuine concerns from someone who wants both the Club and Society to prosper in the not too distant future.

So are we saying the original statement said that the Society paid off 200k but it has now been amended to say the club in fact paid over 180k? Surely they can't have got that wrong

At least two people have stood down recently "for personal reasons". Was announced on the Web Site so no secret. I assume Office Bearers who wish to continue have to be re-elected at the AGM. Just read the blurb again about the meeting in November. Given that it's a shared platform, I'm not so sure how much time or opportunity there will be for in depth questioning. Whether that's by design I do not know. I intend to send in a few questions and hopefully can get through to Motherwell to see if they get brought up. It's a pity we are not having a Q&A devoted solely to the Society as they really do need to clarify matters to be able to push on

When two positions on the Board became vacant several months ago, I understand someone who contributes regularly to this Forum contacted the Chairman to discuss taking up one of the positions. I am told the answer was " You can apply if you wish, but we have already identified the replacements". I have no proof of course, but I have no reason to doubt that what I was told is true. Just adds to the nagging doubts.

In a reply to concerns being raised on this Forum, someone from the Society came on and suggested that anyone could put concerns in writing to the Society and someone would be happy to respond. Not special treatment, just following their suggestion. And I have already fired money in. Before I fire any more in, I would like to know that it's not going straight out again. To be clear, I have doubts that it is actually building up a Contingeancy Fund for use further down the line or that that is even still the intention. All I read is that we...The Society... have to pay off Mr Hutchison. It took 3 Emails before I got the first response from Tom Feely

You mean I might not be welcomed with open arms at the forthcoming "let's reveal all" get together. Joking aside, I was actually quite encouraged when Tom Feely (Accountant) eventually got in touch saying he was happy to discuss the situation and had Board permission to share information. Was hoping for a good, constructive chat which would maybe allay the fears I have about the governance of the Society and lack of routine information being made available. Alas, my optimism was misplaced. Re the meeting. Could it not have been arranged to take place after a Home game making it more likely that fans who have to travel a fair distance might attend?

EMAIL received 20 October I refer to your e-mail sent previously to The Society and to Brian out Chairman. Firstly my apologies for the delay. I was in Canada for almost 3 weeks and then was in Portugal following my second team so I am only now beginning to catch up. And it has been left to me to pass appropriate details on to you. If you could pass on to me your home or mobile phone numbers , I will arrange to give you a call. I think that doing so and having a chat would be a better way of updating you. EMAIL received 28 October Apologies for the wee delay in getting back to you. I was holding of until our Board meeting had been held on Monday and I also knew that I had received an invitation to attend the Club Board meeting held after ours. The bottom line is that it is now accepted by all that we should be allowed to provide more information to our members. Previously the Club had regarded some details as being confidential and commercially sensitive. I will phone you later today for a chat and details are being officially released to all shortly. Speak to you soon. Above are copies of 2 EMails I received from Tom Feely of the Well Society. They were in response to several Emails I sent in early October following lengthy discussions on this forum and listed various concerns. The majority of the concerns related to Communication, Finances, the Relationship to Mr Hutchison and the Board's responsibility to Members. Despite the promises made, I have received no phone call from Mr Feely although I do acknowledge that a Members' meeting has now been arranged for this month. Hopefully The Society will be permitted (by Mr Hutchison?) to share some meaningful information. A firm indication as to when up to date Financial Accounts will be made available to Members and some clarification regarding the ownership of the debt to Mr Hutchison would be a good start. Goggles & Flippers is spot on....Communication has been woeful and the secrecy evident would put the Masonic Brotherhood to shame. You could almost believe that the Society is not allowed to make a move without the approval of Mr Hutchison

I accept that our fans can be impatient, but in my opinion they would a lot more patient with a youngster like Watt than they currently are with the dross which has featured at right back this season. As an example re youngsters, Thomas makes plenty of mistakes when he comes on and the fans don't get on his back. Law gets abuse the moment he steps on the park. Laing was just rank rotten and looked lost in an unfamiliar position. Most fans round me were disappointed Watt was not first choice at the beginning of the season and are keen for him to come in ASAP. Quite a few go along to the Under 20s and say he is a standout when selected. I honestly believe he is our best prospect (hate that word) and needs to be tested to progress. If not given his chance very soon, there is a danger he will go the way of McHugh and the like. More importantly, we must get the right back position sorted.

Only pre season I know, but Watt looked far and away the best right back we have. Able to control a ball, tackle, could beat an opponent One on one going forward and did not get ruffled. Compare that to Law and the nightmare that Laing dished up. Time to give him a chance or else what is the point. Maybe if he had not gone battling on a night out he would have been in already. Oh, nearly forgot, he can also shoot which is a novelty in this team

As a well intended suggestion - If you want to effect change, first get your own fans and Club on board, then other fans and other football clubs, then the media, then the Football authorities and then (dare I say it) the Police. Only then will the politicians listen when you approach them. It will be a long, frustrating journey but worth it in the end. You could start by asking fans to sign a petition at our home games. Like minded fans of other teams could do the same. I'm sure most would be happy to support a carefully worded statement. Gather enough names and present that to MFC to open discussions and secure their support. And so on and so on up the line. If you have already tried petitioning at Home games, then I must have missed it. The action you are taking at present only alienates those whose support you require to be successful. It also gives the Media a chance to distort your intentions and provides Politicians with validation for the Bill.

Had not seen any of the newspaper reports regarding the protest so just had a quick search online. Sadly, the impression given in the three examples I read is that the Celtic fans (supported by supporters of Motherwell) were demonstrating against a Bill trying to eradicate Bigotry from football. I know that is not an accurate description and doesn't tell the true picture, but many people reading the articles will get entirely the wrong impression of The Bois' intention. I did not see any mention of over enthusiastic stewarding/policing or criminalisation of people for very minor offences. Nor did I see any explanatory comments from a Bois' representative. You are not going to get a fair hearing from the Media following such a protest and in fact I fear your justifiable cause may have been damaged. As for everyone talking about it. On this Forum I would suggest most people are talking about your bed partners rather than the particular complaints you wanted to highlight. In fact, most posters are already aware of the way fans are treated and witness it week on week. Also, you may well have given the Authorities more ammunition to use against you. Genuine causes for complaint. But I fear the demonstration did more harm than good on several fronts. I also get the horrible feeling you guys have been "used".

Dee, Most fans of all teams...certainly those who attend games on a regular basis...would agree wholeheartedly with much of what you say. The heavy hands stuff is spot on and the actions of some stewards and some police at some clubs are excessive. So by all means highlight that fact. However, the Legislation itself was not brought in to stop you guys banging your drum or supporting your team through thick and thin. The legislation was brought into being to specifically address the vile behaviour of groups such as The Green Brigade. You are protesting against the same legislation but with a different end picture in mind. By all means join forces with right thinking fans of other clubs, but please do not associate The Bois name and that of Motherwell Football Club with such a poisonous group.

By all means protest against the legislation if you feel justified. But let's not pretend that The Green Brigade are driven by the same good intended motives as The Bois. The Green Brigade wish to be allowed to legally display their vile, sectarian banners and to openly celebrate murderers and terrorists. By standing beside them the Bois will be looked upon by many as supporting their cause. And in direct answer to your comment, It's not odd at all. it's just that most folk who know anything about football in Scotland know exactly what the Green Brigade are all about.