trafficlight

Got mine delivered first thing on launch day and I'm really pleased with it. For a start, it's great to have a football shirt without a corporate sponsor. I know sponsorship means income etc etc, but it's a nice throwback to a previous era. Puma have produced a high quality shirt - really smooth and silky - and i love the design. I've since ordered the hoody and the training vest. Guys in the club shop - the walloper with the Manchester address is me, so get them in the post.

Nobody is pillorying you, don't be melodramatic. I would pillory you for supporting those fascist bastards Lazio, but not for disagreeing on a topic such as this. It isn't actually much a disagreement except in terms of how this particular tie should be described. It's hardly Darwin v Creationism; in fact the dividing lines are blurred. I just object to to every harmless, anodyne remark immediately being seized upon as 'arrogant' and 'condescending'. They are looking too hard to take offence; over-analysing every comma and pause. I like to piss them off, sometimes in jest, sometimes seriously, mixing it up so they aren't sure. And you say pilloried......what is waiting to be offended and strike back against the big, bad arrogant Sassenach? I get my share, it's character building

I don't disagree with a word of it, but I'm what you made me However, that is nothing to do with Manchester United, it's just the way I am, so furthermore don't you or anyone on this board make assumptions about my club or how our supporters think. You don't know us and you can't judge us as arrogant, condescending, spoilt or anything else.

No, no, no Braveheart. Absolute garbage and you have you kilt in a twist. The origin and this thread can be traced back to a simple congratulatory remark I made towards the Icelandic fans in which I said they should be recognised for having travelled for a match which isn't a glamour tie. I believe that to be true, and whilst you may diasgree I still believe it to be true when considered in the context of (a) the stage in the competition the tie was held (b) the opposition © the cost of the trip (d) the financial setting. IMO, every man Jack of the Icelandic support deserves recognition; a small fanbase which at least was represented for the tie in these testing times. Now you may disagree with my analysis, but there it is. I believe any talk of the Icelandics flocking to Scotland for their first European tie to be fanciful and that the small stature of the Icelandic club, that it's a qualifying round, the fact that it's against Motherwell, and the current the financial climate combined to produce a very small away support. Nevertheless, they did their club proud, and, furthermore, not many more Motherwell fans will make the reverse trip. I rest my case.

Stay on topic, dickhead. It's a simple topic to discuss.

I know, I just get angry with people who can't understand the most simple of concepts. I should have more patience, but I have a short fuse. It's always been a fault, but why can't they understand? It's no great leap of imagination. It's so fucking easy.

It isn't a nonsense in the overall context of the tie. Do you think you're Real Madrid, Braveheart? Even The Bruce was a realist Those Icelandic fans who travelled to Scotland deserve total respect, and those who didn't would have had perfectly good reasons after circumspection.

Am I speaking fucking Japanese here, or is it the language barrier between England and Scotland? One of you must have a fucking brain. Hang on whilst I get Sharon to interpret, because something is being lost in translation. The Europa League qualifying round ( not the competition proper ) is not a glamour tie whether it's against Motherwell or Real Madrid, and the Icelandic fans are intelligent to see the tie in its context and make a judgement according to whether it's worth spending hundreds of pounds to attend for ninety minutes. The fact the Icelandics haven't played in Europe before doesn't make them throw their sanity out of the window, just as Motherwell fans didn't do that in Albania last year. Fans weigh up the pro and cons and make a decision of whether to travel or not. Numerous factors come into play - cost, disposable income, significance of match - and a judgement is made on balance. Hence at Fir Park you got the away support you did. Icelandic clubs only have a small begin with and only a proportion of those will travel after having taken the contributory factors into account. Now what's so fucking difficult to understand? This is basic comprehension. Get me a Japanese dictionary.

True, you just used the equally lame patronising tag. It's totally untrue and I'm defending the small number who travelled from Iceland, by saying it's patronising to claim they should be treating a Europa League qualifier as a glamour tie, as if they can't form a judgement for themselves. Their home crowd will be lower than Motherwell's, but the difference in the away support for each leg won't be substantial. Only a small minority of people in the Motherwell area can be bothered to attend Motherwell games, so don't expect too much of the Icelandics. They took a decent support as a proportion of their home gate to Motherwell in these hard times. YOU are being patronising.

Absolutely

And it isn't patronising at all. You get about 4,000 people for your home games, including away fans, so how many do you expect to travel from Iceland? Think about it before you start the lame 'arrogant' jibes. Fucking hell, you're in a netherland.

'Glamour tie' and 'big deal' as if the Icelandics should have travelled en masse to Scotland for a Europa League qualifier, despite the current economic problems. Like they can't contextualise the real significance of the tie but were blown away by just being in the draw. Motherwell were lucky to welcome as many away fans as they did in the context of things. The majority would have been watching the game in a bar in Reykjavik. Try to assuage yourselves of the assumption that anyone who supports a big club is arrogant, but test your own utterances.

Fair point, each side will just have to be certain of the other's arrogance. I think they are delusional, no doubt they will say I am condescending.

Fair enough, I just think they brought as many as could be expected in the circumstances and they did their club proud. It wouldn't have been cheap, same goes for all for the Motherwell fans who travel to Iceland; I respect the sacrifices they must be making for what is a Europa League qualifier. The circumstances/context of the match do dictate how many fans attend.

And I stand by that, just as your trip to Albania demonstrated last year. You expect them to come over by the plane load- a small club from a tiny country, in these economic times - to see a team they have never heard of? FFS who is being arrogant?

So where were you all last year, with decorator and his nine pals? Wasn't a big deal then, was it? These are hard times and you had the same decisions to make the Icelandics did. They deserve credit for taking anyone to Scotland.

What you mean is you know you're wrong, dickhead. Only ten Motherwell fans went to a European away tie last year. Motherwell don't play in Europe evey year, so where were you all for this 'glamour tie'? The Icelandics faced the same choices, please don't patronise them.

No, you have been extremely smug and arrogant. You never go near a match yet think you can judge everyone from the fans of a small Icelandic club to those of a huge name like Manchester United. Try living in the real world, making the choices we do about which games we attend, then you might be in a position to judge us. You have no idea how difficult it is for most football fans in 2010.

No, YOU are missing the point entirely. Icelandic clubs are small and have a small fan base. These are difficult economic times and football fans are every bit as affected as everyone else, so the fact they brought a group of fans over for a Europa League qualifer from a country which is on the brink, is a testament to them. How many should they have brought to Britain, this small Icelandic club - five thousand, fifty thousand? I will bet my last penny that most of those who travelled (a) had never heard of Motherwell before the draw or (b) knew nothing about them. They know that a Europa League qualifier isn't a glamour tie, so please don't patronise them by telling them they are they part of something incredible; they aren't stupid and it's you who are being condescending. You think Icelandic people don't know how to contextualise what a big game is? Those who travelled, however small in number, have my full respect. They have other priorities, same as all football fans, and can decide for themselves which matches are worth attending. They voted with their feet in the context of the cost of attending, same as we all do; their home crowd will be much bigger than the number who travelled to Scotland.

But Motherwell aren't my team. I spend about £1500 ( for domestic games only ) a season supporting mine, so don't judge me or the Icelandic fans who support their team. It's you who's the wanker and who is condescending. You never set foot near a football stadium and don't have to make the choices we do.

How about you fucking wrap it. We were having a civilised conversation about the game until the uber-fan from the states began the insults. Those Icelandics who travelled to Scotland deserve total respect for spending big money to see a small tie, whether it's their first European match or not. These are tough times and they spent as much money travelling to see a Europa League qualifier as they would for a Champions League semi-final, so good luck to them and same to 'Well fans who travel the other way; most of whom won't but who aren't lesser fans than those who do.

I'm judging you, Mr fucking Chicago. You never set foot near the stadium of your own club yet think you can pass judgement on those of us who make the effort, including those of a tiny club in Iceland who are supposed to fork out a fortune for a Europa League qualifier in Scotland! Are you for real?? You dare call people wankers.

Aye, touche. You're no better than anyone else, remember that.

Nothing smug or condescending about it. So what if only a handful of Icelandics made the trip? They deserve full credit for spending that kind of money, and I will wager only few extra Motherwell fans will travel the other way.The expectancy that everyone who supports a small Icelandic club should be grateful to play a Europa League qualifier and spend hundreds to come to Scotland, is smug and condescending. I remember Decorator's thread about the TEN ( count them ) Motherwell fans who travelled for a European tie last season. Good on them for spending that kind of them, but it's hardly surprising so few did for a tie like that. I wouldn't because I can't afford to, and similarly I have turned down tickets for far bigger ties because I have wanted to save the cash in case United made the next round.

Who asked you, dickhead? You can turn any remark into anything you like, even if you don't understand it. Are you flying in from the states for a Europa League qualifier? No, other priorities, like the Icelandics in the first leg and those Motherwell fans who aren't travelling for the second leg? Be sure to post your pics of your visit to Iceland.