Joeboy

I thought Clay played probably his best game for us yet on Saturday.

I agree with you on all of this. I always try to make my opinions on something rational, but that is something that has been missing since day one of McGhee's era. Whatever your opinion on the guy, when we hire him as a manager, wanting him to fail or getting on his back before a baw is kicked is utterly counter-productive. His second spell at Motherwell has been a case of get criticised when you do badly, but get no praise when you do well largely by our supporters. Personally, I can detach any perceived personal feelings I have for someone I don't personally know, but clearly others can't. I do have gripes with him this season, no doubt about it. Some of his tactics, selection and recruitment have baffled me and I genuinely can't recall a season in my time when we haven't won two games in a row on February 16th. But pointing back to the rationality, we've won twice as many games as Accies and Inverness have for some perspective. Last night was totally unacceptable and whilst I've never been an advocate of losing my shit over one match, last night was probably an exception to that rule. A back four which includes a 3 time title winner with 26 international caps and a guy who has played 564 times for the club should have the experience not to fold like a pack of cards and concede seven goals to a team like Aberdeen. You could be more forgiving if it was an isolated incident, but it's not. Then the sending off/video debacle. This is where I think McGhee's arrogance badly affects us. Claiming he was just having a laugh when I think it was 5-0 down at the time, talking about consulting a lawyer and going mental on camera is well out of order. He showed absolutely no dignity and I've yet to see him acknowledge how bad we were, rather just focusing on his own spat with an official. Whatever happened between him and the official does not take importance over fixing what went wrong last night. He done well last season to get us 5th, absolutely no doubt about it and the opportunities afforded to the likes of Cadden, MacLean and McMillan would have been unlikely under our previous three managers. But the video incident proved that he wasn't only acting with no dignity, he was feeling pressure and was not in total control of his emotions. I guess it's hard to know what effect the backing of the fans has on a manager or a team, but McGhee must surely have acknowledged that a high percentage of our support is out with pitchforks and would happily see him fail to suit their own agenda. Last night reached boiling point for me in that regard and it was the first time I have thought it's maybe time to acknowledge this isn't working. Fans are obviously a voice of a club, but as many acknowledge McGhee's second spell isn't working out, a lot of our fans need to take a good look at themselves, with the detrimental effect their "support" has given the club over the last eighteen months.

In the context of the two ties, Lasley was the main villain, absolutely no doubt about it. I wasn't enamoured with his performance, particularly at Fir Park, but that was an honest pro making a mistake. Vigurs "contribution" over those two games epitomised his entire spell with us, whereas Lasley's contribution was uncharacteristic. Not being able to see that and attributing the comment to "man-love" is a bit off if you ask me.

Iain Vigurs is probably held in pretty much the worst regard I hold any former players. The summer he signed, despite the fact we managed a second place finish, I think initially McCall was guilty to an extent of signing all the best players available to him, rather than a definitive shape. Signing Lawson and Vigurs may have made more sense had we then signed a striker who could play upfront himself, but instead we signed Sutton (who was obviously a massive success that season). Vigurs showed flashes of ability, but it was clear he wasn't a left midfielder or a central midfielder in a 4-4-2. However, any sympathy for him I may have had soon vanished due to his lack of basic professionalism. Regardless of how you're not suited to a role or how you think you are being misused, the basic requirement is for you to apply yourself and put 100% effort in all the time and anyone who argues he did this is clearly at it. So many times he tried daft skills that didn't come off, but then made no effort to go and win the ball back, that's plainly inexcusable. The Stjarnan game was tipping point for me, as Fraz says above. My frothing at the mouth, shouting abuse at players days are confined to my younger years, but they returned as he went off the park that night. Lost the ball at one point and the guy who won it strolled up the park whilst Vigurs stood static at the half way line, with his hands on his hips. That was as we were on the verge of exiting Europe. Some people are saying blame Lasley for that tie, but for me I would always sooner have sympathy for someone who tried and made a mistake, than someone who doesn't try at all. Vigurs was an egotistical, lazy prima donna and he's one of very few players I would be reluctant to ever give a second chance to.

This juniors being as good as the conference is one of the best things I've read on here You are either a master troll, or absolutely miles out. Do you reckon Shotts Bon Accord would have knocked Ipswich out the FA Cup?

The modern day game needs more self-proclaimed lovers of hoofing the ball up the park.

Tait- I had my doubts about defensively to begin with, but I actually think he's been a really good signing in the end up. You're entitled to your opinion on him however, but do you think he's a downgrade from recent right backs? I'd rather have him than Moutouakil, Saunders, Ramsden, Kerr, Reid and Law there so if you consider right-back a problem, I don't think you can make it exclusive to McGhee. Heneghan- basically see above but Page, Cummins, Ramsden, O'Brien, Kerr, Laing, Kennedy.

Him being on the bench at Inverness while Fra Kerr was right wing made memorable by you getting a meltit selfie with him.

I've already said the basis of this about Ainsworth in the "McGhee out" thread but here goes....It really disappoints me that we are not getting the best of a guy who has got obvious talent that we have all seen over the years. However, the Ross County home game in October aside, I really can't think of any recent evidence as to people are clamouring for his inclusion. For me, a prime example of a player people make better in their head when they aren't featuring. He has been left out for periods when fully-fit by each manager in his time here. I remember even in his loan season, being up at Inverness with Fra Kerr right wing and Ainsworth on the bench. Even Kenny Black got round to leaving him out when he was caretaker. Couple this with looking at his long list of clubs prior to here, I don't think that many managers can be the problem, you might think that it's him. People act like he has been frozen out as well, he hasn't. He's featured in 25 of our 29 games this season, 13 of which he has started, giving him plenty of opportunity to make an impact. Whilst I've disagreed with many of McGhee's tactical selections this season (Chalmers/McMillan at left mid for example) and whilst I don't think he was in any way suited to head a 3-4-3 formation like he did on Saturday, Ainsworth becoming more of a peripheral figure is one I think he has largely got right. He'll always be the guy who gave me great moments in the play-offs, but the last four months at Fir Park for him is destined to peter out with ten minutes here, ten minutes there and unfortunately, I believe that's the way it should be, unless something changes.

He came on for three minutes at Ibrox, as in 180 seconds. The fact you find his performance that day worth noting says it all. I doubt he's going to do much for us the way things are turning out but I really don't know how you think you're qualified to make that judgement. I'm pretty sure Gateshead at full time. Whilst a conference pre-season might be slightly lower than Scottish Premiership for the standard of coaching, I don't think his fitness levels would've been a million miles away. Would you have had any issue with a player coming from Falkirk or Queen of the South, for example, coming straight into the squad?

Blyth has played forty minutes over three sub appearances. I don't know if your training comment is "inside info" but if you can judge a player on forty non-consecutive minutes then we'd be as well employing you as chief scout. Bowman for me looked good against Accies, making three of Moult's four goals. I think the only time I seen him starting since then was against Inverness at home when he was poor. It's obviously not as black and white as a player from the conference (seemingly our level of signing a player) coming up and the transaction being seamless, as he has hit double figures there a number of times.

All very valid points, Brill certainly didn't look that well in shape any time I seen him. I guess it'll be interesting to see if he plays at Colchester, I know he didn't on Saturday. I'd be interested to find out how much Griffiths is picking up in comparison to him.

You can look at this thread a number of different ways I suppose. When we supposedly budgeted for 10th and are currently sitting 6th then you'd have to say he's at least meeting expectations. For a thread like things to have over a full page of posts after one defeat, in which several things outwith his control happened is quite bizarre. On the other hand, the fact that the thread is seemingly activated after every defeat probably signifies the inconsistency that's plagued our season. Personally, I don't think it's time for McGhee to go but I do think it's unacceptable not to have won two games in a row all season. However, again on the flipside, despite not being flush with wins, Saturday was our third defeat in eight league games, which as a stat by itself doesn't seem so bad. I think people let their personal feelings on Mark McGhee cloud their judgement and thus fail to make a rational and balanced opinion on the job he is doing at the club. The amount of care people have towards the perceived personality of a man they don't know is quite staggering, verging on sad if you ask me. If you stay away from Fir Park because of him, you were probably looking for an excuse not to go anyway. I think he has definitely failed on recruitment this season. Tait looks to be a good signing as do Heneghan and McHugh, but the jury remains out on Lucas (mainly fitness related) and Clay (puts a shift in but doesn't add much quality). Giving Samson a new contract, for him to have the amount of errors he's had and remained in the team despite the fact we signed a keeper with SPL experience in the summer is staggering. Not having enough conviction in his own summer signings has been bizarre, Bowman not starting in Saturday, Blyth barely featuring (is he injured or is there more to it?) Brill not featuring etc. Belic was a failure too but apparently he came at no cost so that's a risk I suppose that was worth taking. All of that has to be a black mark against his name. I am quietly confident about his January recruitment though. The 3-4-3 formation on Saturday was bizarre, no doubt about it. Ainsworth who has failed in his attempts to nail down the right wing berth suddenly becoming a centre forward is baffling when Bowman has been waiting on his chance. That formation works for Chelsea, but with a battering ram like Diego Costa at the head of it. However, I think those clamouring for Ainsworth's inclusion all the time give a prime example of a player becoming better down to the fact he's not playing. We're now onto the third manager who's failed to get him playing consistently, you begin to think the manager's not the problem (good to look at how many clubs he's had). With those proposing to let him go, what's the alternative? Craigan is going to be the obvious shout but last year he said it would be too risky to give up his TV work and under 20s role which he enjoyed. We're now stuck with the players we have until the end of the season at least, do we just chance that someone else could get the better out of them? I'm sure anyone with rationality would agree that McGhee did work wonders last season to get us fifth, so with a significantly reduced budget to be struggling a bit more (also worth bearing in mind we properly kicked in February/March last season) it's not a surprise. Have we recruited badly? Yes. Have we failed to strike a consistent run of form? Yes. Has it left us in a hopeless position? No. This year so far we have lost to two sides above us in the league and won against one around us. Circumstances aren't always black and white, but judging a manager on two games against Rangers and one against a Hearts side who have just spent a lot of money is harsh.

Every time Hammell has played two games in a week this season, he has failed to complete the second (Tuesday night included), I wonder if us asking him to play three times in a week will have any bearing on the team selection. We really should be looking to bring Bowman in, as if we've paid a fee for this guy, he should at least be able to come in when one of our strikers are out but I'm not sure it would be my first choice. I'd be tempted to play three from our wide array of centre mids and have Cadden and Frear (albeit an unknown quantity still) supporting Moult from wide areas.

If the option was between keeping McDonald and getting Ciftci on loan, it would be a no brainier for me. McDonald is probably our most vital player in my eyes, obviously Moult is fantastic and is a great goalscorer, but the influence McDonald has on him can't be understated. Ciftci hasn't played regularly in eighteen months and given he's a bit of a maverick anyway, it could take him a while to get up to speed and he could blow hot and cold, we know what we are getting with Skippy. Having the three of them would have been nice, but then basing our style on a three pronged attacked would mean that Frear would almost instantly become a peripheral figure for them and we could only play three of: Lasley, Clay, Cadden, McHugh, Lucas and Pearson. Suppose it is nice to have options but that would perhaps have been overkill. I've said a lot this season that of all the teams congregated on similar points to us, the thing that gives me most faith is the fact that I consider us to have better strikers than them. A window that we finish with both of them still here is a good window for me.

Anyone touting Ainsworth as not getting a game due to not being one of McGhee's "favourites" must have forgotten that he spent long periods out of the team under McCall and Baraclough too. He's a talented player but clearly an enigma, evidently as we were his 12th club at the age of 26. You can debate McGhee's tactics or gameplan, I didn't agree with Chalmers starting nor McMillan coming on for him, but there's absolute no doubt that had McGhee thought that Ainsworth was the player mentally and tactically to either start or come on, he would have done.

I think our budget has dropped significantly this season, maybe not as dramatically as people are making out, but I think we could well be budgeting for 10th. I'd see where our squad is tomorrow before you properly gauge it, but I think we are spending a fair bit less on wages this season than we would have last, but we don't notice it numerically as we perhaps have gone for quantity over quality. Consider that Hammell, McManus and Lasley are known to have taken significant pay cuts and that McFadden isn't costing us a combination of his and Steve Robinson's wage then that's a saving already. Probably only Cadden is earning more this season than he did last year. All over the team I reckon there are savings. McHugh will be on less than Pearson I'd imagine and Clay will be on less than Gomis for example. Heneghan being on more than Hall is probably the exception where the replacement is on more than the guy he replaced. So while we don't see a difference in squad size, we do in player quality and that is probably why we have struggled as much. I don't think McGhee has had a good time of it in his transfer dealings this season and there are parts of the budget I would definitely have been wiser about spending. The transfer fee thing comes from the business model and given we've gathered fees for Johnson, Pearson and Hall over the summer, I wouldn't be too concerned by it. Previous managers didn't really bring in enough money to be given any to spend back.

Had a look at their reserves/academy page on Wiki. They have a left-back called Luke Garbutt, who is 23 and has had a couple of Championship loans and England under 21 caps, wouldn't be averse to it being him.

Normally I would side with a post like yours on a topic like that Sieb, but I don't think I would actually criticise Erwin for going to Leeds. He spent nearly an entire season out injured when he was 19 and again when he was 20. After two years of being constantly injured, he gets a good run in the team and a club like Leeds come in an offer him a three-year-deal on £7,000 a week (that's the figure I heard, but could just be hearsay I suppose). What if another long-term injury, like the ones he'd had before, was to happen in pre season had he stayed at Motherwell? Is another club going to offer a 22 year old who has had three long-term injuries a lucrative deal like that? It's a short career, especially when he can see the likes of Euan Murray and Jack Leitch who he came through with falling down the leagues after leaving the club, I think he'd have been a fool to turn down that money that was being offered to him. I know his attitude since going to Leeds is self-determined and probably from what we perceive could be a lot better, but even with not getting into the team at Leeds it's led him to loan spells at Bury and Oldham, both in league one, a level that players often aspire to when leaving us. I think there's a difference between moving for a quick buck and actually being financially strategic. I could see the argument if he was 18 to stay at Fir Park and get more games but in football terms, 21 is even getting on a bit. When you add in that we got a reported fee of £500,000 for a striker who had been fit for one season and scored 6 goals in 37 games (not scoring between August and April into the mix as well), I think the Erwin deal was great for both parties.

Whilst I agree that it's a massive waste that a talent like Ainsworth is sitting on our bench doing nothing, I think it would have been a risk bringing on a guy famed for not tracking back when Rangers were chasing the game. Whilst I don't think Joe Chalmers is a long-term option, a short-term option, or even a guy you can stick there for 10 minutes, it's easy to be swayed by the fact Dom Thomas is playing well a level down. Hopefully the move sees him come back in the summer in a better position to compete for our first team, but we do have to remember he was ineffectual in several appearances for us prior to going out on loan.

From what I read, the Dundee Utd move is apparently a non-starter as Celtic want to loan him out to someone paying all of his wages. So that would more than likely rule us out too.

I'd sooner take a hot tap in the East Stand toilets.

Aye, I felt exactly the same. One of the few times I would actually praise us for how astute we were. He scored 7 of his 9 goals when he was on loan, once we brought him in he only added another two - within four days - in April. So after we signed him, excluding that week he went from January to May without registering for us. For me, he wasn't the type of striker that had non-goalscoring attributes (like his pal Ojamaa) that were worth having him in the team for. So, to get a guy on loan, where he has a purple patch, manage to sign him permanently for free whilst he's still under contract and get him to agree to a paycut, then sell him in the summer when the goals have dried up? Brilliant business.

There's times I have been really harsh on McManus, but if honest I've been guilty of judging him on his early pedigree, not as a Motherwell centre half and the reason he ended up at us aged obviously had a lot to do with his stock falling. When you think about it, I really don't think we could do better than him in terms of an experienced centre half and his form has been consistently quite good since McGhee came in. The more time goes on the more I think I've been harsh on him, every Motherwell centre half will make mistakes. I reckon Franco Baresi would've struggled to look good alongside Mark O'Brien at the back that year.

I know a few of his family members and I'd be astonished if he didn't grow up a Celtic fan. I reckon the Motherwell fan thing was just a bit of lip service with him being a local boy, much like it was with Darren Smith. I would find it disappointing if he no longer held the club in high regard, I've not been to Pittodrie much in recent years so I don't know how bad the abuse/booing has been but there is absolutely no need for it. He conducted himself in a professional manner for his entire time at the club. Never spat the dummy when we reportedly turned down that bid from Rangers (maybe the first sentence I wrote tells you why) when many would have. I do remember some fans booing him in the cup game at Fir Park in 2012, yet the first thing he done afterwards was tweet to defend Lasley after that tackle on Fraser Fyvie. Whether you want him back or not, there are valid arguments for both. I can't see why anyone would have a gripe with how he conducted himself at any point before or after he was with us though. This all does seem pretty hypothetical though. The rumour of him being on his way back and the rumour that he wouldn't come back are probably just as bullshit as each other and born from bored winter break/transfer window fan chat.