star sail

MJC, I have a huge amount of sympathy with what you have to say here and the game you mention was a perfect example of a Motherwell manager talking us into defeat before a ball was kicked. Our record against the OF is terrible and it is slightly depressing when you see our own fans just accept it and defend it as being just fine. What I would say is that when you see how poor our record has been over the last couple of decades, it makes it all the more remarkable that both Robinson and Baraclough were able to change the narrative, if only temporarily. Our league is heavily weighted in terms of the OF, there is no doubt about that and when you see the meltdown that occurs when another Premiership team goes to Celtic Park or Ibrox and dares to even draw ( as per Killie on Saturday) then you can tell that beating the OF is never considered part of the script for any team . I think I read at the weekend that Ross County have never beaten Rangers. If that is true, it shows just how heavily the cards are stacked. You just never know about this weekend. I think we deserve just one headline, marquee result this season. This just might be it. We have to dream.

I see that Stephen Robinson got involved in an argument today with a fan. Steelboy must have been taking in the Livingston v St Mirren game and was given it to Robinson for old times sake!! Seriously though, it shows that it does not take much for any of the managers in the league to feel the heat. Disappointed today. I actually thought we could sneak a result. Proof positive that a decent striker can be the difference between 3 rd place and a relegation dog fight in this league. Hope Spittal is fine and back playing soon. Tough week ahead. I would take three points from the next three games however they come.

With Motherwell only a couple of points off of Top 6 and on a shoe string budget, it is controversial that there is any controversy. How's this for some real controversy. Motherwell are going to win this one. I can feel it!!

I am getting to be an old man now, so my passion is not what it once was for the football but I would say that the football is not worthy of tears. It is too much emotion invested in a group of footballers who will often let you down. I understand the frustration though. I think you have provided a really good balance to some of the negativity on the forum in recent weeks but the team has let us down tonight. Nothing to do with ability. Motherwell were the better footballing side. They just did not want it enough. A lack of fight is hard to defend.

I had a feeling that was coming tonight. The performances have been building towards that result tonight. I have to say, I have been really impressed with the way Kettlewell has managed his way through this last 6 months. The low point was definitely RC away but that apart we were never being completely overrun by teams and since that low point there has been a very steady, almost methodical, incremental improvement week by week that built up to the performance this evening. He has spotted a player in Theo Bair and has managed him really well despite the pressure the team has been under. Delighted for Spittal tonight. Really honest, capable player who has clearly suffered from the teams loss of form. It has been a long, hard Autumn/ Winter but I really believe this team have turned a corner. 4th place anyone?

In regards to both Moult and KVV, we should celebrate the fact that for both of them, the most productive spells in their career were with us. I don't doubt that KVV will be a good addition for Kilmarnock but I will be very surprised if he hits the heights of 12 months ago. Tony Watt possibly falls into that category also. We look forward now to unearthing the next hidden gem.

Both Rangers and Celtic are as bad as each other. I had relatives who lived on Firpark Street in the 1980's in the days of the old terracing and the intimidation they had to endure when the OF teams came to town was disgusting. I think that any Motherwell fan showing a leaning for one or the other is because they have a leaning, not because one teams behaviour is worse than the other. With church attendance dropping off a cliff in recent decades it would be hard to argue that the UK is still a Christian country so the catholic/ protestant divide is one that even the most enthusiastic of sectarian bigots must be finding harder and harder to justify. Admittedly it was always a political rather than a spiritual difference of opinion anyway. I used to get heated about and against the OF but in old age I really don't have any particular feelings against either. In fact I find myself supporting both teams in European competition these days. It makes for a far less emotive enjoyment of the Scottish game in general. Regarding the refereeing inconsistencies, I don't think there is any doubt that both OF teams benefit from decisions in Scotland but it is only on the more marginal 50/50, 60/40 decisions. There is certainly no conspiracy theory behind the reasons for this, it is simply human nature. I had a very close family friend who was a prominent Scottish referee in the 1980's. I got to witness the fallout for both him and his family if he made a controversial decision against either side of the OF. On more than one occasion he had to move his family to a safe house because of death threats and attacks on their household. This was a phenomenon unique to the OF teams. The threat is so real that is it any wonder that either consciously or sub-consciously referee's go with the path of least resistance on the 50/50 calls. I think this becomes all the more acute in the last 5 minutes of evenly balanced games. As an aside, my family friend was a Motherwell fan and he was of the opinion that, over the years he was harsher on Motherwell than any other team. His belief was that he subconsciously overcompensated so that there could be no accusations of favouritism.

Congratulations to the whole team but particularly Kettlewell for managing his way through a very difficult spell and Bair for his brace and assist today. He was not the most popular of signings but his contribution this term to date has vindicated the decision to sign him. I think if he can take confidence from today he will add to his goal tally. It has been a very strange time and has looked at points like we were seeing the same story repeated but Ross Country apart, it has never felt like the same terminal situation we have seen all too often. Only one result, against the poorest team in the league but it should shift the mindset. Any result against Hibs will do nicely going into the winter break. Unbelievably top six is still possible even after that awful run. Shows how erratic the other teams are as well.

I think I may have applauded the Vigurs volley from the corner and I certainly was not the only one. It was a shitfest of a game in which ICT beat us comfortably. The goal was the one moment of quality in an otherwise turgid affair. Sometimes it is just a relief to see a glimmer of decent football break out. I would rather Motherwell had won the game, I would rather the moment of true class came from a Motherwell player but it did not. I don't feel as if I have betrayed my team in any way by admiring a piece of genuine skill. Don't you think it is slightly hypocritical MJC to be chastising others for their less than impeccable support when once again you are using these boards to show a soft spot for the Rangers? I could not care less if KVV pockets a league winners medal with Rangers but each to their own. Maybe I have misunderstood you however . Maybe you would be just as happy for the player, who has been a good servant to us, if he was to pocket a league winners medal with Celtic? Seems like we are just trading vices here anyway. Maybe you should be left to support the football in whichever way you want and you should leave others to enjoy and celebrate the game as they want to enjoy and celebrate it?

I was a GK myself when I played football ( although never professionally) and I always used to get frustrated when I watched outfield players make several mistakes in a game ( misplaced passes, missed tackles, poor control) only for the finger to be pointed when one goal- keeping mistake lead to a goal. It is in the nature of their positioning on the park that makes their mistakes so much more notable. I agree with David. Kelly has been an excellent servant to the club. He is an international goalkeeper for a reason and he will have been made captain because of the positive influence he has on the squad. There is far more good than bad to consider dropping him. It will be tough for Kelly just now and he himself might actually welcome a break. Hopefully his relationship with Kettlewell is strong enough that they could have that conversation if need be. I think he is being judged harshly at the moment. Yesterday was a mistake that on another day he may have got away with. The 3rd goal at RC I thought was actually a descent reactive save. He was just unlucky that the ball landed at the feet of an RC player. Again on another night he may have got away with it.

It is really difficult to know where to start with this. The third manager in as many seasons suffering the same drop off in performance level from his players as the previous two men. Go back just 3 months ago and this same team had just won away to Hearts with Kettlewell enjoying once of the best win percentage of any manager in the clubs history. Can it really become a terminal situation once again in such a short space of time? Reading the forum last night was bizarre. Not only were there some posters almost relishing the position the team finds itself in once more but there were others showing hostility towards those who have attempted to support the manager over this difficult few months. Some of the language is tasteless and highly emotive, particularly when we consider that Kettlewell is a man who saved us from relegation last season and has clearly given his all to make his time a success. I should not be surprised. Swap out the name of Kettlewell for Hammell/ Alexander/ Robinson/ Baraclough etc.... and it is an all to familiar read on these boards. Last night was a worry but I don't think it necessary means the end for Kettlewell. I think his team selection last night was one of a man who has let the pressure get to him. He has lost his head somewhat as one poster described it. This does not make him a poor manager necessarily, just a guy that is not thinking straight under difficult circumstances. I think this is the sort of time that club chairmen need to step in and do their bit. Help the manager ( in this case Kettlewell) clear his head. Try to help him see clearly once more. What was working so well just six months ago that is not working now? How can we get back to making simple, effective decisions. I want Kettlewell to get the gig on Saturday for four very simple reasons: 1. I would love to see the guy turn it round and give the club some much needed stability. 2. To see the club buck the modern trend of sacking managers at the first sign of trouble. As a club we are quickly gaining a reputation for just that unfortunately. 3. It might just break a culture in the club where players down tools at the first sign of trouble should Kettlewell be able to turn this round. 4. If Kettlewell could turn this round it might silence, for just a little while, those on these boards that offer little by way of support to the manager or the team. It is the easiest thing in the world to say that the manager is rubbish and should be sacked because in all likelihood most managers are now just 4/5 poor results away from the sack. It does not make you a visionary to spout the same negative vibes time and time again to then claim victory when almost enivitably managers are shown the door. I am not saying Kettlewell will turn this round. Actually for the first time last night I think the balance shifted towards him not getting out of this. All I am saying is that I hope every option of support is given to him at the club to help him turn this round. If he gets that chance this weekend we need to back him. The atmosphere does not have to be toxic unless the fans choose to make it that way.

It really is crazy what is happening now with managers in our division. The fact is that somebody has to occupy positions 10, 11, 12 in our league and it seems increasingly that club owners are panacking at the first sign of getting close to the drop zone, regardless of the time of year. It almost seems like a strategy now to use the new manager bounce to buy 12-18 months before the search for a new manager begins again. We could well be next. If SK goes that would make 3 managers in as many seasons. Since the turn of the century we have had, on average, a new manager every 18 months with only Mark McGhee and Craig Brown leaving from a position of strength . What does this tell us? That every manager has been rubbish/ an imposter/ wage thief etc, or that the job is becoming impossible with an expectation that is far to high. I sometimes wonder if the drama of the search for a new manager has become as much a part of the entertainment of the sport as the game itself. The appetite for sacking managers has become even stronger amongst the fans. Maybe it is now just a part of the show. When players are lasting longer at clubs than managers, there is a problem. It cannot allow for a sense of stability or vision of how a club might adopt an identity for the future. There is no vision generally within the Scottish game it would appear.

I think this is a really good point you have made. It reminds me of the McGhee/ Gannon/ Brown era. McGhee had a very successful spell but had left the club with a threadbare squad. Jim Gannon arrived and did possibly the most impressive squad rebuild in Motherwell history. When Gannon left, Craig Brown inherited a very strong playing squad. Gannon is a very devisive character amongst the Well support but he actually had a very positive impact on Motherwell's success at that time. Let's not forget that Motherwell qualified for Europe that season via the Fair Play award, thanks to Gannon's philosophy on how the game should be played. I made a comment last night that Hammell is possibly the only manager in recent times not to have made a positive impact but when you change the context a little, he did contribute to Motherwell's survival last season and did not have the best of fortune with injuries at the time.

Good point. If these figures are right it is pretty impressive. 8 in 36 would have us finishing top 6 in a league season. Do we really want to sack a manager with that record? There is a few mitigating factors in the last 7 games. Firstly two of these games were against the OF and could so easily have been draws. Secondly we have missed a couple of key players in Biereth and Butcher. Yes, they are now back but they have to be given time to get back to full match fitness. KVV is the X factor that makes both past and current form difficult to quantify. We can only hope that Biereth fills that gap when fully fit. A 1-0 defeat at Rugby Park is not uncommon. We have had results like that during good spells in the past. I think we need to see how the next two games play out before jumping to any conclusions. The Ibrox game seems a long time ago now but was actually only just over a month ago. It is funny how quickly the mood music changes.

That is indeed a shocking statistic and highlights very well what we are talking about here. I think I am right in saying that Craig Brown is our only manager not to be sacked by the club in the last decade or so. What does that tell us? That all the other managers were useless or that the job of Motherwell manager verges on the impossible? Some would have us believe that all the managers were useless. My opinion would be that every one of them ( with the possible exception of Hammell unfortunately) did a good job in difficult circumstances and all contributed to Motherwell continued top league survival.

I don't disagree with what you say but the tendency is to focus on the bad rather than the good. It is four poor games in what has otherwise been a successful time with Kettlewell as manager. I think it can be useful to look at the wider context. I think some are looking at the situation from the perspective that we have lost the next two games already. Let's at least see what actually happens and then look again at the situation next weekend. We never know. With the unpredictable nature of Scottish football we could be looking at two wins and sitting on 17 points by this time next week. Aberdeen have had a week just like that having looked in some difficulty last weekend.

So is the Motherwell Football Club manager strategy to replace the manager every season for the new manager bounce then sack him? Alexander got about a year before the support started to turn. Kettlewell has had 9-10 months. A month ago people on these boards were posting Kettlewell's fantastic managerial stats and touting him for the Hibs job. This bad run started with us running both Rangers and Celtic very close, so we are really talking about the last four games as being the start of the loss in form. The notion that we have any pre determined right to beat the likes of Aberdeen, Livingston, RC or Killie is unrealistic. If after a season, we find ourselves at the bottom of the league then it may be time to look at a change of manager but are we seriously suggesting that this is the correct decision after four poor games? As a sustainable model for any club that type of strategy is unworkable in the long term. RC were a whisker from relegation last year and they stuck with the manager. Killie likewise. Is it poor decision making from these two clubs to keep those managers or can we recognise when taking the emotion out of the argument, that these football managers are doing good jobs in difficult circumstances. The manager of Motherwell has a task that is equally challenging. Kettlewell did a great job to keep us up last season. He has proved already that he has the skill set to turn things around. The notion that we bin him after four poor games is ridiculous. St Mirren fans wanted Robinson out after a run of bad results early in his time there. Aberdeen fans were starting to voice concern about Barry Robson. He has just won two games on the bounce. It is the fans more than anyone that drive this unhealthy desire for change at the first hint of trouble. Give Kettlewell a chance. He deserves the support of the fans.

First home game I have managed to get along to this season so it was interesting for me for a number of reasons. Firstly, I thought Firpark was looking as good as I have seen it. Nice to see that hard work is going into to maintaining the stadium. The first 10 minutes from a Motherwell perspective was like a training session. I was taken aback by the lack of intensity. Biereth coming on in the second have made the contrast of the intensity with which the game should be played all the more notable. Biereth was a level above any other player on the park. I was particularly interested to see Bair given the negativity when he first signed. He is no striker certainly but I thought for a big lad he had some nice touches and decent close control. It would be interesting to see him play with a couple of pacey strikers playing off him. The second RC goal in particular was a lovely goal and shows that they can play a bit when they get going. We were fortunate to escape with a draw The last 10 minutes reminds me of why I keep going back to the football. 80 mins of dross and then 10-15 mins of high drama and entertainment. Biereth could be the difference between a top 6 finish and a relegation battle. All in all a fairly typical Motherwell performance. A kind of four seasons in one day performance. Anybody saying it is the worst performance in decades cannot have spent decades going to FP.

Does anyone know what the form league table is from the moment that Kettlewell took over ? We must be very close to being top of that table along with Celtic albeit they played 5 games in the top half of the split. I can't think of another team that has been as successful in the last six months. Maybe Aberdeen? As I stands, Kettlewells win statistics are very impressive indeed.

I agree with this 100%. He seems like a decent guy and solid pro who for a time represented the club for Scotland. It is a very strange attitude that a small minority of Well fans have adopted with him. The lack of support he got from some of the Well support during the Euro's was baffling. He was a fraction away from scoring at Wembley. Had he done so he would not be playing for us right now. The fickle nature of football. His assist yesterday was lovely. Really nice to see two underfire players ( crazy though that is) combine to get the goal

Absolutely brilliant. Delighted for the boy after the shite on this forum over the last few days. Hope he can kick on from here.

My prediction is that we will make the top six this season. My second prediction is that we will go out of the Scottish Cup to a Louis Moult goal(s) and he will not celebrate the goal(s) as a mark of respect. I also think we will lose to Dundee today because the promoted teams seem to hit the ground running untill they are found out after the first round of games. I hope this prediction is already wrong by 5pm this evening.

He looks like a young Scott Brown.

I was not trying to underplay Stevie May's ability. The very opposite in fact. I was using him as an example of a player that has proved himself at our level and yet still had a season where he struggled to score in a St Johnstone side. The point is that a player can have a poor season ( even an experienced player like Stevie May) and sometimes it is for reasons other than the player himself. The other point is that having had a poor season one season does not guarantee failure the next season. SK clearly believes he can make a player out of Bair. Maybe he thinks he can man manage some confidence into the lad. Maybe he feels that St Johnstone were not playing him to his strengths and believes that a different formation/ role on the field will play to the players strengths. Look at what he was able to do with KVV by simply changing a few things. One thing is for absolutely certain. If it is a confidence issue, the fan reaction to his signing will not have helped. Even if Bair has been advised by SK not to read social media, the fact that a negative impression has been created already will mean that the first misplaced pass or lack of control during his first game will result in a negative reaction from the stands. Football fans will never learn that their behaviours and reactions can actually handicap the team they are supposed to be supporting. Give the boy a chance. A couple of early season goals could be all that is needed to kick start his career. Let's try and provide the environment which best allows that to happen.

Also for a little more perspective, Stevie May scored 2 goals in 30 appearances on season 21/22 and then scored 10 goals in all competitions last season. The two points I would take from that are that the performance of one season does not necessarily predict the form of the next. 10 goals is not prolific but they are goals that contributed to St Johnstones safety last year ( including a win against us). Secondly if a proven SPL standard forward in Stevie May is struggling to score goals in that St Johnstone team then a young Canadian trying to find his way in the Scottish game may also struggle to find his form for reasons other than that he is useless. It does not look like an inspired signing I would agree but SK's reputation as a manager capable of building a competitive squad is at stake so he clearly believes that Bair is worth signing.