David

Absolutely, he’s the one responsible for securing the wins we need to get things back on track. No debate about that. At the moment, I’m relatively calm about the situation. If we were at full strength, with our best XI on the pitch, and still performing poorly, then I’d be seriously concerned. But I think things will balance out as players begin to return to the squad. What I will say is that before Miller, Oxborough, Stama, and McGinn (yet again) picked up injuries, I genuinely thought we had a chance of pushing for a top-six finish. Given the extent of the injuries we’ve sustained and the time these players are expected to be sidelined, I reckon we’re more likely to finish around 7th or 8th. Not ideal, but it’s far from disastrous.

To be fair, I’m not convinced St Johnstone or Hearts supporters would be staging those protests if their team were sitting fifth in the table with a cup semi-final under their belts. I fully appreciate the frustrations about performances—truth be told, we’ve not been anywhere near good enough. Most fans are being reasonable in their criticism, but there are a few speaking as if we’re rock bottom of the league and nine points adrift.

If it really is as simple as you make it sound, I wonder why the club don't just sack him and hire someone from this forum to do the job 😂

What would we say are the KPIs set for the manager at the start of the season?

We'll find out where we are headed. It's on the manager and the players to start putting some points on the board. To be fair, when we defeated St Johnstone in that match, we had our first-choice goalkeeper, our captain was still fit, Miller was available, and so was Robinson. At that time, we had plenty of options when it came to personnel. Of course, it’s the manager’s job to cope with injuries, but you can’t deny there will be a dip in quality when you lose players of that calibre.

Nobody knows where we’ll end up, though. Let’s say we lose this weekend, and Hibs manage a win away at County. Suddenly, we’d drop from 5th to 6th. Would the manager be sacked for that? If so, I’d have some serious questions for the club. Chief among them would be: who’s taking over? I’d assume there’s someone better lined up, ready to step in and make an immediate difference? Because for a club like ours to sack the manager while sitting in the top six would be absolutely baffling. Given all the hand-wringing over a supposed “financial gap” during the summer, I’d also want to know the cost of letting the manager—and presumably his coaching staff—go mid-season. Now, if we were down in 11th, fair enough, that’s a different conversation. But in the top six? Is that really where we’ve set the bar for managers at Motherwell? Have we reached the point where making it to a cup semi-final and being in the top half of the table doesn’t guarantee job security? If so, I’d seriously question the judgement of those making these decisions. For me, it’s about keeping our heads above water, and seeing how things improve once our key injured players are back in the fold. When the season’s over, by all means, let’s reflect on what worked and what didn’t. But making drastic changes mid-season? That should only ever be an absolute last resort.

Would it really be all that shocking if we managed to beat St Johnstone this weekend? How many times have we been written off, told we’re on the decline, and destined to come away with nothing, only to turn it around and notch up a few wins? The reality is, if you take Celtic, Rangers, and perhaps Aberdeen out of the equation, the rest of the teams could face each other ten times and likely split the wins evenly, five apiece. As things stand, we’re sitting in the top six. That’s not speculation or me trying to predict what might happen—it’s simply the truth. We’ve won more matches than every team below us. Again, that’s a fact. This is where we find ourselves at the moment. Could we slip down the table and end up 11th? It’s possible, but the same could be said for most of the sides around us and below. If it comes to that, then it’s a conversation we’ll need to have.

I'm not sure there's anything to buy in that regard. Or even an argument. We are sitting 5th. That's just a fact. Only the teams above us have won more games this season.

If that turns out to be the case, a conversation will likely take place. However, at present, that’s purely speculative. Just as easily, we could win at the weekend, Hibs might drop points, and we’d find ourselves four or five points clear of the team in sixth. At the same time, if Aberdeen were to lose or draw against St Mirren, we wouldn’t be far off fourth place. There’s a range of possibilities over the coming weeks, some positive, others less so. Let's see how it plays out.

I could see it happening very easily if we ended up in a playoff spot, which is where you'd think we are going by some of the reactions over recent weeks. Today’s performance, though, was absolutely dreadful—no two ways about it—and both the manager and players need to take responsibility for that. That said, we’re currently sitting in fifth place in the league. Yes, I understand we might drop down the table, we could end up in the playoffs, and so on. But I’m not interested in speculation—I’m focused on where we are right now, and that’s fifth. I don’t believe he is. He’s likely relying on the points I mentioned earlier: we’re sitting fifth in the table with more wins than half the teams in the league. Of course, that could change, and if it does, I’m sure the situation will be reassessed. But for now? I don’t think the club would consider letting him go. The last time we parted ways with a manager who had us in fifth place, it triggered a difficult period where we were burdened by paying off ex-managers’ wages and the like. In my opinion, unless things completely fall apart, we should wait until the end of the season to take stock. If we choose to move on at that point, there will be a broader pool of candidates available, and a new manager would have time to assemble their own team. Right now just isn’t the moment for a change.

I think the situation with Trump was quite different, as it centred around social media and the algorithms that amplify the echo chamber effect. If you’re on X, for instance, and you’re a Democrat reading and sharing views aligned with your beliefs, the platform feeds you similar content. It’s easy to start thinking that what you’re seeing reflects a broader societal perspective. What I’m saying is that across both forums, you get a fairly decent snapshot of the fanbase as a whole. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to suggest that the majority of fans are feeling a bit fed up with how we’re playing at the moment, for a variety of reasons. That said, most people seem to acknowledge we’re in a relatively good position and hold out hope that things will improve. Meanwhile, a vocal minority with a more negative outlook tends to get more attention than their numbers would suggest. Wouldn’t that description also fit the three stands at Fir Park during any given home game right now? I’m not claiming that every Motherwell fan is active on a forum, but the small sample size does seem to reflect what we’re seeing from the wider fanbase. What I’ve described isn’t far off what I think the majority of supporters are feeling at the moment—or at least, that’s my impression. Unless, of course, I’ve completely missed the mark. In any case, it’s not that big of a deal. Just more of an observation than anything else.

That’s why I specifically mentioned forums “like this one” and not just this one in isolation. I genuinely believe that the opinions expressed across both platforms give us a fairly accurate reflection of what our wider fanbase is thinking—particularly now that some of the more obvious trolls have been put on moderation. Of course, we can’t be entirely certain, as there’s no definitive way to prove it. It’s simply my perspective.

Whether we like it or not, this forum is a mirror of our broader fanbase. Forums like this one are a small-scale representation of the wider support in the real world. Admittedly, the more negative voices may be louder here than they are in the stadium, but they still exist in comparable proportions, in my opinion.

I'm pretty certain that would not be the case. In nearly forty years of following Motherwell, I can count on one hand the times fans have walked away from a cup defeat saying, "Well, we lost to a team destined for relegation, but at least we went down fighting! Fair play to the manager and players for that effort!" We all know that even if we do win, there’ll be the usual crowd reluctant to offer any sort of credit to the team or the manager. Instead, it’ll be a discussion of how poor the opposition were, how we should have beaten them anyway, and the usual nitpicking about aspects of our performance. And of course, we can’t forget the classic, “Why don’t we play like that every week?” if we happen to put in a good shift and everything clicks for us.

That’s an excellent point. We should also consider that the pool of available midfielders in January is likely to be quite limited, especially for a club that can’t afford to spend millions or offer substantial wages. Additionally, as Joe mentioned, we’ve got a few midfielders currently sidelined with injuries who are expected to return at various points this season. The key question is: what’s the standard of midfielders available right now in the January window? Is the quality we need even out there? Furthermore, among those who meet the required standard, how many would actually be keen to join a club where competition for places could become very intense once others regain fitness? Many larger clubs insist on guaranteed game time for players they send out on loan, which may complicate matters. I suspect this is why West Ham recalled Hegyi. There are a lot of variables to consider, and I believe our style of play and formation are heavily influenced by the players we have fit and ready for selection.

I’ve never paid much attention to him before, but looking at his recent stats, am I overlooking something? He played 37 matches last season, 36 the season prior, and 41 the season before that. Is he typically seen as an injury risk?

No worries, it happens to us all at some point, the discussions are so back & forth it's easy to do. While I wouldn’t describe it as "severe," I do believe the issue of ownership plays a role. I’m as much of a supporter of our fan ownership model as anyone—of course, I am—but it does impact our ability to compete with clubs that are backed by wealthy owners or majority shareholders. That’s simply the reality of the situation. I’m not complaining about it, particularly since, in the main, we’ve outperformed those clubs where it truly counts—on the pitch. As we’ve seen, spending more on players doesn’t necessarily guarantee success. However, it’s undeniable that if a club has greater financial resources and uses them wisely, it’s more likely to achieve better results than those with less funds at their disposal. That said, our recent track record shows we’re actually doing quite well against the clubs around us, for the most part. Do bear in mind that having higher staffing costs doesn’t automatically mean we’re paying, or even in a position to pay, more in player wages or transfer fees compared to the other clubs you’ve mentioned. On the deficits you’ve pointed out, it’s worth highlighting the role ownership plays in that. For instance, a club like Kilmarnock benefits from Billy Bowie, who has the ability to dip into his own resources to cover such shortfalls. We, on the other hand, don’t have that luxury, which is precisely why we need to be cautious about overextending ourselves on player salaries. It’s vital to ensure we avoid putting the club at risk of financial difficulties. There’s a distinction to be made between an unforeseen, urgent expense and choosing to commit to a cost for a player when it isn’t a necessity, isn’t there? And while it’s true that the Society has funds in reserve, I’m not entirely convinced the board would have been willing to allocate as much as £140,000 of members’ contributions to fund the wages of a player we'd only have at the club on loan. I’m not entirely sure about the situation with Hibs and Hearts, to be honest. However, when it comes to us and other clubs in a similar position, I believe it largely comes down to the financial support that owners or majority shareholders at those clubs can offer. They often have that safety net to fall back on if needed, whereas we simply don’t have that luxury. In a way, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. We’re forced to operate within our means, which is how it should be. Clubs that spend beyond their income tend to end up in serious trouble sooner or later—unless, of course, there’s someone willing to absorb the debts.

Did you see where I said the following? So we are competing. And more often than not, we're bettering them.

It goes without saying that the club would love nothing more than to dive into the transfer market and secure a top-quality left wing-back with similar attributes to Kaleta on the opposite side, for instance, as well as a striker in the mould of Moult or Van Veen. If such players were available, affordable, and interested in joining Motherwell, there’s no doubt we’d pursue them, just as we have done successfully in the past. However, the reality is that the market largely dictates our options. We operate within a specific bracket of the transfer market during both the summer and January windows, where our focus is on identifying players who meet our criteria, fit within our wage structure, and, most critically, are willing to make the move to Motherwell. This typically means they have a personal reason for relocating to this part of Scotland, they’re coming on loan with their parent club viewing the move as beneficial to their development, or they don’t have stronger offers from elsewhere. The challenge arises when these opportunities aren’t materialising during a particular window. What then? While we’ve managed to recruit quality players in the past, it often requires everything falling perfectly into place to make it happen. The reality is, not only are we holding our own against teams that often have the means to spend more on players, but we’re actually outperforming them more often than not. In the past five seasons, Kilmarnock have only finished above us in the league once. St Mirren have managed it twice, St Johnstone once, and Ross County haven’t done so at all. And this season so far? Not a single one of those teams is ahead of us in the table. Transfer fees often involve structured payment plans, with specific milestones triggering additional payments. In many cases, these fees are spread over several years. The expectation is usually that the investment will yield returns, whether through the player’s on-field contributions or future sell-on potential – especially when signing a 25-year-old with resale value. Wages, however, are a completely different matter. For a start, bringing in a player on a significantly higher salary than anyone else at the club can create tension within the squad. It also establishes a benchmark that complicates future contract negotiations. As for your point about Van Veen, you suggest we could have matched his wage demands. Surely, by that logic, Kilmarnock could have done the same, couldn’t they? If so, why did a director have to personally contribute from his own funds? Do the reported staff costs include all club employees or just the playing staff? I wonder if they also account for payments made to the various managers we've had in the year or so leading up to those accounts, along with their coaching teams and associated costs. As with most things, it’s not a straightforward matter. What’s frustrating is that if many of our supporters had their way, we’d constantly be paying out to replace managers and coaching staff, which would only serve to keep our staff expenses consistently high.

😂

So you’ve posted in the thread titled "Are Motherwell Entertaining?" only to propose that we abandon the discussion and focus instead on Saturday’s match—which already has its own thread? The whole point of having multiple threads is to allow for different discussions to take place 😆

What I’ve said doesn’t specifically relate to Kettlewell; it could just as easily apply to any manager we’ve had who’s found themselves in similar situations. In fact, most of our recent managers have faced the very same challenges. I believe that’s why, no matter who’s at the helm, we often see the same supporters complaining about the same issues and being critical of whoever holds the role.

I didn’t single out those clubs – you did. I simply responded. And, frankly, you’ve completely disregarded my points about the quality of players. How many of our players would walk straight into the Hibs or Hearts squads? And how many of theirs would make it into ours? Yes, those teams may not be performing cohesively at the moment (although Hibs are unbeaten in their last five matches and Hearts have only lost one in the same stretch, so it could be argued they’re starting to find their rhythm). Still, they’re clearly not playing to the standard expected, given the calibre of their squads. That, more than anything, likely comes down to coaching and management. Meanwhile, you could argue that we’re exceeding expectations by comparison, which is also a credit to our coaching and management. When it comes to budget, club stature, and player quality, the top six in Scotland this season should, in most cases, include Rangers, Celtic, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Hearts, and Hibs in some order. As for our current form, some might say we’re on a poor run. I wouldn’t go that far, but I can see why others might feel that way. However, as with most things, context is key. Everyone knew that facing six matches in sixteen days – essentially a game every 3.2 days – would severely test the depth of our squad. We’re simply not the sort of club with the resources to field a squad capable of handling such a gruelling schedule without consequences. On top of that, let’s not forget who we were up against during that period: Celtic away, Rangers at home three days later, Hearts away, Aberdeen at home, Kilmarnock on that dreadful plastic pitch, and Hibs away. And that doesn’t even account for the fact we lost some of our most important players during that time – our best player, our goalkeeper, our new striker, and our captain were all sidelined by injuries. When I look back on that spell, I think taking a point against Rangers, three against Aberdeen, and another point at Kilmarnock is a respectable return. Before that difficult run, we’d had two poor results against Hibs and Dundee, which weren’t good enough. But following that, we took seven points from three games – a win at St Mirren, a victory over Dundee United at home, and a point against Kilmarnock. Now that the intense stretch of fixtures is behind us, we’ve had a week to rest and reset, and we’re ready to go again on Saturday. Could those factors be at play? Possibly. But just as you might argue they could be, I can equally argue they might not. That’s precisely why I prefer to focus on certainties whenever possible. Those factors you mention might have influenced things, but the reality is we face opponents with differing styles, on various pitches, in constantly changing weather conditions. Our own players are at different stages of fitness and coping with varying degrees of fatigue, all while playing a match every 3.2 days on average. There’s no "perhaps" about what I’ve just outlined. Those are indisputable facts, and I’d rather consider them first before speculating about other factors that might have an impact. Of course, it’s fair to look for improvement. However, to demand it without considering the factors I’ve outlined above comes across as a bit unrealistic, in my view. That said, if you believe that a club with our budget – and, as a result, the squad depth and quality that come with it – should be performing at 100% while playing a match every 3.2 days over a period of more than two weeks, all while delivering entertaining football, missing some of our key players, and contending with some rather challenging conditions, then you’re entitled to that opinion. We’ll revisit those figures in a few months, once the weather has improved and the fixture schedule has eased up a bit. This time of year is typically one where many people have less disposable income, so it’s no surprise the numbers might be affected. I’ll gladly take a closer look at the attendance stats down the line. That’s perfectly fair. I don’t see it the same way, of course, and I do consider the various factors involved. However, you’re entirely entitled to disregard them if that’s how you feel. That’s all part of being a supporter. Performance always matters. I’ve never been one to think otherwise because it does. That said, I’d much rather we grind out a scrappy 1-0 win than lose a thrilling match 4-3, as I’ve mentioned before. As for the Hibs game, I saw a team that looked like it had reached the end of a gruelling run of fixtures and was running on fumes. We looked like a side without our usual goalkeeper, who had done well since coming in this season, and instead had to rely on a 23-year-old replacement. This lad had only just arrived at the club the day before and, as far as I can tell, hadn’t played a senior match all season. We looked like a side whose captain, returning from three months out, made his first start only to come off injured after 30 minutes. We looked like a team missing our best player – one of the brightest young midfield talents in the country right now. We looked like a side without our new first-choice striker, who had started to find form before his injury. We looked like a team coming to rely on three young players over the recent busy period – Wilson, Maswanhise, and Kaleta – two of whom are 20, while the other is 22. These kids spent last season playing a mix of under-21 and Scottish League One football, and are now effectively in their first full season of serious senior-level competition. In short, we looked like a team that’s been through the wringer. If you’d asked me to outline a worst-case scenario before we faced Celtic away on Boxing Day, I’d have probably said something like losing Stama and Lennon to injury, losing both our first-choice and back-up keepers for various reasons, and seeing Paul McGinn return from injury only to get sidelined again. If you’d told me we’d have to cope with all of that during a packed schedule, then go on to lose to Celtic, draw with Rangers, lose away to Hearts, beat Aberdeen at home, draw away to Kilmarnock, and lose away to Hibs, I’d have said that sounds about right. Ultimately, though, people will think what they want to think. It’s clear we’re not going to see eye-to-eye on this, so there’s no point endlessly rehashing it. What I’ve outlined here reflects how I view this recent run of games. I’ve tried to focus on the facts rather than speculate or second-guess the manager and coaching staff. They’re in their roles for a reason, while you and I are here as fans, paying to watch them do their job. Let’s see how things unfold over the coming weeks. Hopefully, we’ll see a bit of relief on the injury front and pick up some results along the way. With the squad as it stands, I’m not expecting a winning streak any time soon. It’s going to be tough, but with a bit of luck, we can nick a result in the cup and keep ourselves in the conversation for a top-six finish.

Kettlewell’s approach to setting up the team has, by and large, been effective. When you compare us to the teams you’ve mentioned – all of which operate with larger budgets, two of them being much bigger clubs in major cities – the results speak for themselves. We’ve won two more matches than Hibs and three more than both Kilmarnock and Hearts. Of course, if we were to go on a poor run of form and start slipping down the table, there would naturally be questions to address. However, it’s difficult to criticise the manager for sticking to the tactics and strategies that have placed us in the top six during the first half of the season. It’s also worth bearing in mind that, particularly in the cases of Hearts and Hibs, even though their form has been below par, they still have squads that, on paper, are stronger than ours. In fact, I’d be far more concerned if our manager were to approach games against sides with the quality of players they possess under the assumption that they’re merely "inconsistent shite". Many of the factors I’ve previously mentioned come into play here. If managing at the top level were as straightforward as setting up your team and saying, "Just play the same way we did against Rangers, and we’ll be fine," it would be an incredibly simple job. But the reality is far more complex. Every match presents unique challenges. We face different opponents with varying styles, on different pitches, in changing weather conditions. Add to that the fact that our own players are at different stages of fitness and dealing with varying levels of fatigue, and the situation becomes even more intricate. This isn’t an excuse, by the way—just the plain truth. These are the variables we have to contend with, whether we like it or not. I assume those fans are Motherwell supporters, and as such, they’re fully aware of what they’re paying to watch. It’s no secret. Like the majority of teams in Scottish football, the style of play isn’t exactly easy on the eye, and the quality often suffers due to the conditions we insist on enduring by sticking to the frankly baffling decision to play through the winter months. Put Barcelona or Real Madrid on that Rugby Park pitch in -3°C temperatures during a typical Scottish winter and see how much free-flowing football they manage to produce. In a sense, fans know exactly what they’re signing up for. We’re all well aware of the standard of the product on offer. On the whole, we’re neither more nor less entertaining than most teams that compete at our level. Here’s a question to consider: should producing exciting, entertaining football be part of a manager’s job at a club like ours? I don’t claim to know more than the average fan, but I’d imagine the main measure of success is avoiding relegation first and foremost, aiming for a top-six finish if possible, putting together a decent cup run, and perhaps developing players we can eventually sell on for a profit. Right now, we’re not in the relegation zone, we’re sitting in the top six, we’ve made it to a cup semi-final, and we’ve got a few players in the squad who look like they could grow into assets that bring in some money for the club. So, is that success for the manager? It’s a genuine question. Or is he expected to achieve all of that—likely on one of the smallest budgets in the league—while also delivering football that’s exciting and entertaining to watch? Maybe the real question is about the manager’s actual remit and the KPIs he’s been given. If the targets set by the club are broadly what we think they are, then he’s delivering. And it’s worth remembering that the last time we let go of a manager who was meeting those kinds of expectations but who the fans wanted more from, we ended up in a right mess, with the club spiralling into chaos for a while. Saying that, I do know a few fans of other clubs who found that whole saga quite entertaining, if nothing else!

When it comes to the manager and coaching team, I'm reluctant to second-guess them after the fact. They’re hired for a reason, and their decisions often involve details we might not see from the stands. After all, there's a reason why they're being paid to do the job while we're paying to watch them. You mentioned our recent games against Rangers. Though it was the same opponent, both matches played out differently potentially because of changes in the lineups and formation. Rangers made seven changes, and we made four. Naturally, this influenced how both teams approached the game. Managers make tactical decisions based on a mix of factors such as the team’s strengths, the opposition’s setup, and the specific demands of the match all based on who's available and fit. They balance risks, adjust to changing situations, and try to account for things like pitch conditions, player fatigue, and even weather. Football is unpredictable at the best of times, and no amount of preparation can remove the element of chaos. If even Pep can go through a spell where he looks like a dumpling, it can happen to anyone.