Well Up For It!

As much guff as he talks, can't disagree with anything here.... Charlie Nicholas says "No to Newco"

Livingston enetered liquidation, but a deal was struck before asset stripping with the SFA to assist them. The were demoted to Div. 3 wasn't technically a Newco, granted, but still regarded as going bust. If it wasn't for SFA stepping in, their probably wouldn't be a Livingston. This was possible because most of the clubs debts were football debts. Gretna went into administration and couldn't find a backer to give them funds to fufill their fictures in division 1. To prevent financial penalties from the SFA and were ultimately "forced" to resign, after which they went into liquidation. The Gretna 2008, set up after them, made an intial application to join the SFL. However, the clubs structure was not finalised in time and they withdrew their bid. Annan got the place. Airdrieonians went into liquadation and went bust. A Newco Airdrie United applied to join Div. 3. There application was rejected in favour of Gretna. Their Newco chairman Jim Ballantyne then went on to purchase 2nd division side Clydebank. With SDL permission, he gained relocated and changed their name. A newco Clydebank was formed and entered the juniours. They applied unsuccessfully for an SFL place in 2008 when Anna got the place. Clydebank (now Airdrie) remained in Div 2 (sorry I did get that bit wrong!!!!!!)

Airdrie FC are technically Clydebank, Airdrieonians are dead. Livingston are more of less the same by your arguments. Gretna no longer play at the same ground. So maybe in terms of Livingston, but hard to make a case that Airdrie and Gretna are still the same in a sporting sense. Take Dolly the Sheep - was she still "technically" a sheep?! Or was she a clone first? Same thing with these clubs....they are clones of other clubs, clubs which have ceased to exist. Another obiovious one is Third Lanark. And I believe it should have happened to them all. Imagine an SPL club go out tomorrow and spend £100m on players and win the treble. It turns out they didn't have £100m to spend and are now up to their eyeballs in debt. They try to wriggle out with a pence in the £ CVA, it doesn't work. They are forced into liquidation, but immediately become a new club and automatically stay in the SPL scot free. Are they still the same team then? With no sanctions? Even in a sporting sense? I think to deny THAT is just laughable....

Put it this way....it's the same thing that happened to Airdrie, Livingston and Gretna. All the clubs went bust for not paying their bills. With Rangers its not paying tax. Football are businesses. Anything involving people paying for something (their match ticket on Saturday, etc) requires the club to pay tax. Any wages that a club payout require payment of PAYE. Rangers did not do this. Livingston went belly up and got sent to Div 3. Gretna went bust and were refused permission to join Div 3 and are now a junior club. Airdrie were refused entry to div 3, so bought out Clydebank, rebranded and relocated them, and went into Div. 3. Why should Rangers be any diffrent?! Arguably more guilty considering their budgets, etc. And if you never paid your tax you would go to jail, so why should they get off lightly?! By not paying their bills when the other SPL clubs are, this is blantant breach of rules both in football terms and business terms. And there is serious questions as to wether the Newco can be held responsible for the old Rangers transgressions. Therefore, sanctions from a ruling on illegal dual contracts under the EBT scheme may not be applied to the Newco. The Rangers you know went bust. Another company was set up and they bought the stadium and other assets and will register under a name similar to Rangers. To many, they will be the same old Rangers. But this is an entirely new company, and therefore an entirely new club. Their history has died with the old Rangers. No trophies, no records, nothing.

Mad Vlad is looking to sell Hearts. He has placed a £35m price tag on the club, taking into account the £25m overdraft with his bank and the £10m value he's placed on the assets. No one in a million years is going to pay that!! That £25m is pretty much lost. It is reported Hearts have further debts of £12m and his bank has refused to increase the overdraft, leading to missed wages, etc. Now, if he liquidates Hearts he can asset strip or set up a newco to another company he owes. Every penny received from sales, etc would go to his bank. Say all in through asset stripping, cuts and firesales, he generates £10m, that reduced the debt of the club to £15m. That £15m overdraft can be transferred to a newco at the discretion of the bank - his bank. So basically Hearts come out the other side with a £15m overdraft, no other debts and Mad Vald has just clawed £10m back. The £12m owed to other creditors is binned. Also the running costs have reduced significantly allowing the newco to deal with the overdraft better and the Newco Hearts apply to get into the SPL. If they are refused after Rangers were allowed in, he will take them to court. It also increases his chances of selling club, taking £10-12m and all money goes to his bank. £3m loss rather than £25m loss thanks to Newco route. Just how I see it going....

But the bank is main creditor and he won't recoup his money by selling the club, but will through liquidation....sahfting everyone along the process in the same way Duff&Phelps basically get all of the money Green paid for the assets. Herts are a DEAD cert for newco IMO....would alough Mad Vlad to finally wash his hands of the club without taking the financial hit!

Herts and Killie guaranteed!! Aberdeen mibbies a 3rd. And Mad Vlad is just crazy enough to sue the crap out the SFA/SPL/etc when he puts Herts into a newco and they are booted to Div 3 immediately without any dragged on debate. That will result in UEFA/FIFA hammering us, Scotland are out of World Cup 2014 qualfying before it even begins, no Champions League adventure for us and the final nail in the coffin of Scottish football. Wonder if this is being considered by the chairmen ready to vote YES accross the land? Also, wonder if they are considering if TV money and a Rangers love fest are worth the negative attention and possible sanctions we will face as a nation from UEFA/FIFA? Or maybe they are too narrow minded to see that way....or completely ignorant. And that is the ultimate tragedy of our game. Take the money now we are dead in 5years. Take the financial hit now, and we will have a new dawn in 5years. One sacrifices the fundamentals of sport....the other encourages it. Either way, this decision will reflect on our game throughout the world. Do we become a symbol of integrity, or a laughing stock?! Precedents need to be set now. No one is too big to fail......CASE CLOSED!!!

I'd focus as much money on the playing staff and youth development as possible. Stadium repair comes second. Everything else is irrelevent to me. I think a NO vote would see an inmprovement in our attendances and I don't imagine that SKY will butcher the deal too heavily, so really not buying this 36% - think that is absolute worse case scenario of no TV deal, which won't happen. Maybe more like 15-20%, maybe less with improvement gates and better financial distrubutuion. Sell on a player or two and get to the Europa League group stages and it could be an 36% more money! So aye, I'd cut the freebies, media budget, non-essentials, etc as much as possible before cutting the "football" side of the club.

You not mean 11?! Cause make no mistake, the biggest losers of a SPL without Rangers will be there ugly inbred sisters at Parkheid!

It's also a push to sign up for the 'Well Society and for season tickets...... The cheek of it!

Might have to change it to say "Motherwell Fans" since our Board have taken it upon themselves to just ignore what we think and just chase the pennies!

Perfectly put. That should be the members of this boards official statement on the matter.

This is a key point for me. If our Directors vote for a newco when we are trying to set up the 'Well Society and essentially a fan owned and run club, then that idea is dead before it starts. Wonder if they are taking into account the potential absolute colapse of the 'Well Society with their stance?

Think it's a completely outrageous statement. Is it just me or does it come accross as extremely condacending?! If they want to put financial gain ahead of sporting integrity we are as well packing it all in. What is the point in a league where clubs can blantanly cheat and get away with it with no more than a slap on the wrist! Fans are the lifeblood of the club, end of! Their voices must be heard. Actually fearing the worst over this now... Just hope 5 other SPL clubs have got more of a backbone than our board seem to be heading toward just now!

If the SFA/SPL/SFL do ANYTHING to soften the blow of Rangers being demoted to Div 3 (where I'm now absolutely convinced they are heading!) such as rushing through league reformation, etc will be WORSE than any clubs voting to keep them in SPL in my opinion! Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a 16/18team top flight, but this cant be rushed through for the purposes of one club guilty of blatant cheating and not paying their bills! If this happens, I believe (and part of me actually hopes) that FIFA/UEFA get involved and absolutely hammer the SFA. Maybe then we will get rid of the absolute clowns in charge! And talking of clowns and the SFA, why the hell is Campbell Ogilvie still doing holding a role within the SFA? He should have quit as soon as they were "found out" and if he never he should have been kicked out on his arse pronto! Further proof the SFA is a disgrace! I actually don't care who they are/think they are, but NO ONE is too big to fail and punishment applies to all!

Their is a poll of sorts of Sportsounds Open All Miss Facebook page....comment yer or no to newco. Only 14yeses so far from over 400comments!! Not just the majority of Well fans....majority of ALL fans!!!

Just World football??! I thought this was the Armageddon/End of Days the Mayans predicted all those years ago. Their calendar ends in 2012 cause without "the people", time will cease to exist!!

I'd be pissed off if our club voted to keep them when the vast majority of us don't want it. That would be a complete insult and contradicition to the idea of a "community" club that they are striving so hard to acheive! Sporting integrity is more important than all the money in the world. End of.

Is the top limited stock or anything like that? Got too many things on just now really want one. Would be a couple of weeks before I can order it - is there likely to be stock left?

And that my friend is what makes this whole matter 100times worse!! Say the same happens to Hearts in a few years when Romanov pulls the plug and the SPL quickly kick them out. and throw the book at them....surely then Hearts would be able to sue the SPL/SFA for favouritism?! If they are found guilty and go to the wall, keeping them in will create many more problems for the SPL/SFA down the line, with UEFA/FIFA sanctions, law suits, etc, etc.

I agree that the SPL is essential corrupt, with a ridiculous and unfair balance towards the OF. However, to an extent there is still a degree of competiton and sporting integrity. If the rest of the provincial clubs continue to show no backbone and allow a Rangers newco to continue unpunished, then that will take it to a whole new level. In my eyes, a decision not to pusnish blanatant cheating is no diffrent from match fixing. Our corrupt league would stop being a joke and become a completely pointless novelty that has absolutely no standing, no respect, no dignity and , basically, no point in existing.

This thread is starting to bore me with the whole "I'm a better and more loyal fan than you" guff.... I will ALWAYS have Motherwell FC at heart, wether we are in the 3rd division obscurity, in the chanmpions league or in a league that not only allows complete and blantant corruption, but encourgaes it. If (and it is an IF at this moment) Rangers go to the wall, are found guilty of rule breaches with the pending investigation into EBTs, and lose their big tax case then IMO the SPL and the SFA cannot allow them to carry on the way they are as one of Scotland's so called "flagship" clubs - no matter the financial implications! If the SPL vote for a newco Rangers, guilty of tax evasion, to remain in the top flight then, as others have put it, the game truly is a bogie! Sporting integrity is out the window, the "fair play" that football is built on through FIFA guildlines has been pissed all over and we are left with a league that is absolutely 100% corrupt and essentially pointless. I believe many "loyal" fans will walk away and no doubt FIFA and UEFA will put there noses in to further sanction everyone for the misdemeanours of Rangers and the authorities for being so naive to allow financial clout to outweigh common decency and justice. For me, should these things happen, I'd still be upset if a newco Rangers was allowed to reatin its SFA membership and gain access to Div.3 - with their rap sheet that would be unjust, but I'd be willing to accept it and move on believing that lessons had been learned, mainly by the clowns in charge of our game. Now due to work, etc I don't make it to Fir Park half as often as I'd like. In fact I'm ashamed to admit that I only made it to 7games last season (3 of which were away!) which is my worst attendance in the 20 odd years I've supported Motherwell. IF a newco Rangers is voted back in, I would lose the guilt I feel for missing games and would become indiffrent to the league and, although I'd probably still go from time to time, my only interest in Scottish football whatsoever would be my passion for the club. I'd attend to see my team play a game of football on a Saturday afternoon, nothing more, nothing less. I'd not give a monkeys about league placing, etc because I would have lost all faith in our league and governing body that I would fail to recognise them. Now if people want to stay away completely that's entirely their perogative. The same as if people want to turn a blind eye and carry on as normal. But there is no escaping the fact that all clubs in Scotland would see a drop in attendances. Our game would become even more of a laughing stock on the world stage and it would set us off on a path to complete obscurity (similar too Irish/Welsh leagues much more so than an SPL without Rangers!!) For ANY fan of ANY club in Scotland to think that a newco Rangers, with all their years of cheating, being allowed to stay in the SPL is not a complete violation of the essence of sport as we know it, then for me they are 100% deluded. Carry on going if you wish, just don't take some moral high-ground that you are a better fan than those who have chosen to turn their backs! And until we know the outcome of the Rangers debacle and exactly how the SPL/SFA/FIFA/UEFA/etc react, this is all pure spectulation.But as I said in my earlier post, Rangers newco or Rangers with a CVA absolutely need to be punished accordingly for the sake of sporting integrity and the sake of the future of our game.

Not posted on this topic as yet but have been reading regularly and there is without doubt a lot of ifs and buts to be ironed out, but I'm firmly in the "kick them out" campaign. If they had breached one or even two rules then maybe there is an argument to keep them in the SPL with a heavy sanction, but they have KNOWINGLY broke a whole host of rules and their position as one of our "flasgship clubs" is completely unattainable! And I'm not taking into account the pending big tax case and rulings on EBT's. They have been nothing short of shambolic in their operations over the past 20years, and I hope (primarily for the sake of your decent Rangers fan...there are a few) that these rogues like Murray, Whyte, King, etc are taken to task and faced with criminal sanctions\charges. Reading McCall's email, I have to commend him on the way he comes across yet again: very thorough, very professional. And I do agree with a lot of what he says and his reasons for his thoughts. HOWEVER.... Releasing the strangehold the Old Firm have on our game would be remembered as the single greatest thing ever to happen to our league. As many have pointed out, we have a once in a lifetime chance to stop the rot rife in our game. Kicking Rangers out if they are reborn as a newco and absolutely throwing the book at them if they agree a CVA is a start and essential to sporting integrity...but getting a fairer voting system is also instrumental. The financial balance of power in our SPL is beyond belief, with the top 2 benefitting from much higher and disproportionate prize money to the rest of the league. It is a firmly rooted capitalist system, allowing the richer to prosper at the expense of the less well off. So what if we lose the big SKY TV deal, having spoke to someone who knows the ins and outs of the deal a lot better than me, he believes a reduced TV deal would be compensated by an extra 1000fans turning up at the gate which would be more than possible in a more open Rangers-less and balanced league. The one thing it would affect is the prize money for league placing, but restructuring that into a fairer system again accomodates that. Make no mistake, the team that would be hurt the most should a Rangers newco be expelled to Div. 3 is Celtic...no matter what you read in a paper, or what Lawell says, for Celtic to milk the other clubs dry like they have for so long, they need there ugly sister by their side. Sure we would take a hit in the quality of player we can attract for a few years....but is that really a bad thing?! Our clubs would have to rely on home grown talent, nurturing our players from a young age to be all they can and expose them to top team competitive football earlier. The end result would be a more competitive league (Celtic aside at first), better Scottish players resulting in a better national team, opportunities to sell on the young players to England to keep up running costs, etc, etc. Also the benefit to our lower divisions by having Rangers march through would be excellent. Also, many of the Old Frim fans and new supporters to football in Scotland could be more likely to go to their local team if they have more chance of a challenge. This has all been done before by another Football Assossiation, the French. In the 80's there game went absolutely belly up and had to be radically reformatted. The end result? A completive league with 9diffrent winners over a 20 year period. The improvement in football (spearheaded by young homegrown players, exciting to watch who might never have got their chances in the old system) led to more TV money and reduced prices for fans. Money coming into the league was controlled and regulated. And to top it all, the "new breed" of French player managed to win the World Cup and the Euro's. Not for a minute am I saying we'd be the same - a smaller country and all. But it shows it can be done. The grass roots work and current change in attitude of the Dutch League is also worth considering. Surely the powers that be can implement a balance to our leagues that incorporates these examples. And over 10years or so we will come out the other end flourishing. Even back when Rangers and Celtic were trying to get into England/Atlantic League I've championed the benefits of being rid of the disease they are, not only on our game but our society. And the way the world is just now, it won't be too long before the bubble finally bursts on the spending power in football. Premiership wages in England increase and increase, so they demand more and more money from SKY to cover costs, which SKY pass onto the customers, who basically refuse to pay £100/month for football and cancel. SKY can't pay the Premiership and overnight loads of clubs plummet into administration with the majority facing liquidation as they simply can't sustain their debts. Whether thats 5, 10 or 50 years away, it's coming. And makes sense for us to be prepared. Lets start now with a revolution of Scottish footbal! The Old Firm are like heroin addiction: It makes the world seem brighter, it offers self belief, it solves all your problems – but it also pollutes your system, turns you into an over dependent wreck by hooking you, leaves you with little money and will ultimate kill you in the end! Time we got Scottish Football into rehab. No to Newco. Yes to voting reform. (Apologies for long reply and for going off topic at points. Just wanted my 2cents worth)

Much better read than Goram's guff in yesterdays Sun!

Lot of rubbish on this page and it's all based on pure opinion and spectulation. Simple fact of the matter is Nevin didn't want the job, Boyle persuaded him to take it on and Boyle stated his ambitions and budgets. And IF the Sky deal hadn't dissappeared, then we wouldn't have imploded! Billy Davies has to take a lot of the flak for signing these players as it was him who identified targets, such as his brother John Davies and Paul Harvey. People commententing on things they don't know the facts to with such agressive authority pisses me off. Yes, Nevin should have put up more of a fight to get Boyle to reign in his ambition, but I don't lay much blame with him at all. He was dead against administration and felt it was completely uneccessary. Many local companies, Eric Black and many of the players have spoke about his determination to fight the threat of administartion to the very end. Like him or not, he always comes accross as very professional and honest - just as he was in his playing days. Its everyone's right to disagree with his opinion though. But anyway, it's allin the past and I think we are in a better position now becuase of all those terrible events that happened 10years ago.