Inthebasement

No not really, I was making a point about the motivation behind the legislation being discussed. I think the bill is intended to oppose sectarianism in football, something I believe Well fans should support. I disagree that the campaign 'isn't up for debate', or that I am 'on this thread to moan about it'. I respect the campaign but have a different opinion on the reasoning behind the governments proposals and I am commenting on that from a Well fan perspective. I am also opposed to heavy handed stewarding, lazy policing and all-seater stadia - but this bill isn't about any of those things.

Sorry, I chose a poor quote in my previous post - I am interested in the basis for the assumption that the bill isn't really about sectarianism, its actually about criminalising football fans 'for anything which could be interpreted as offensive'. The bill is self-evidently about behaviour at football - is that your main objection? Football-based sectarianism is a clear and identifiable social ill in Scotland and it perfectly appropriate to legislate against it in isolation. It fills our casualty wards and is recognised and associated with Scotland by ordinary people throughout Europe. Many of them would have watched the highlights of the problem OF derby last season, the 'highlights' of which were one of the most viewed items on BBC's website, which in turn is one of the most viewed websites in the world. That is why the Scottish Government wants to legislate against, and they probably aren't secretly hoping to penalise Well fans for sticking up two fingers at St Mirrian fans, or whatever. What do you think a bill addressing sectarianism across society, the so-called 'real-causes' of sectarianism would look like? The 'Lets Make the Central Belt of Scotland More Affluent, Tolerant and Better Educated Bill'? I'm sorry, but the old 'sectarianism is Scotland's problem not football's problem and that is what we should address' line is just another Old firm cliché presented to avoid responsibility and maintain the status quo. We should avoid those.

I get that you believe this - what is the basis for this view?

I respect the opinion of the original poster, and broadly agree with the sentiment 'heavy hands – empty stands'. I do not want to see Well fans or any other diddy fans being lifted for standard banter which could be interpreted by some as offensive. I particularly support the East Stand choir and their efforts atatmosphere this season. However, I believe the intention and most probable effect of the bill is to reduce the influence of sectarianism in Scotland and for that reason I support it. I am also concerned that the anti-authoritarian platitudes wheeled out here (sorry mate) have their origins in the OF agenda and the protection of their archaic way of life. Particularly the 'rushed legislation is invariably flawed and misused' thing – sorry but where did that come from, an objective study of the historical impact of emergency legislation? ALL legislation is open to interpretative abuse. Swearing at someone is an assault. Does that mean the associated legislation lists all of the word and phrases you are not allowed to say? Does it provide notes on inappropriate volume, context and intonation? Are we arrested every time we go to the football and use a bad word? In the real world the police are required to exercise discretion in the application of the law, and their front line implementation is then subject to assessment and refinement by the courts. This is how order is maintained in liberal democracies. The reason this particular piece of legislation being widely torn apart and criticised for 'relying on the opinion of the police' or 'criminalising football fans' is because there are a huge number of arseholes in this country who definitely DO NOT spend much time worrying about maintaining freedom of expression in Scotland, but definitely DO really like chanting bigoted shite upand down the country while their expensively assembled journeymen, only too happy to cash in of the bigot-dollar, provide them with inevitable moments of reflected glory in their grim lives. Even the ones that don't much care for the chanting know that it is the centre of their brand and power, and resent any interference from wider society. I thought that is what Well fans had chosen to avoid? OF interests are at the centre of this dialogue. I heard Alan Rough and Derek Johnson on the radio the other night agreeing with an OF caller, that under this bill everyone in the stadium attending a Scotland England game, including the players, could be arrested for singing their respective country's national anthem. Genuine football fans would do well to draw a line between that type childish transparent nonsense and the real issue here. I've read the bill - a Celtic season ticket holder gave me a copy and asked me to attend a protest. There is no easy way to assess its effect in a non-OF context, but my best guess is that the only behaviour regularly seen in Motherwell crowds which would cause arrest is the sieg heils no one is talking about in the Atmosphere at Fir Park thread. If the few fat old inbreads who position themselves amongst our young singing section and throw sieg heils between the lines of their Well songs are lifted and thrown in a cell with the IRA chanters and billy boys I for one will not be anticipating the death of Scottish football. Well Fans Back the Bill

Hate to nit pick on a positive post (I agree, we are special as fuc) but I think we wheel out the population of Motherwell line a bit too much. The Well represent Wishaw too, a town basically joined onto and about the same size as Well, plus the likes of Carluke also. I remember the claret and amber displays on Carluke High Street in our 100th year - I really wanted the club ball on nthe window of Brooks... ace.

Top class from McCall! Anyone else watch Murphy, Higdon and McHugh running through a 10 minute shooting drill before the Dunfermline game? Anyone? When facing the goal with the ball near his feet Higdon hits either bottom corner at will. And you can't tell which corner he is going for til he hits it. Neither Murphy (worst of three but he has a lot to his game obviously) or McHugh were even close, with both selling their intentions, getting a few, and scuffing a few wide or into the side netting. That is why Higdon will end up top scorer despite being so outstandingly immobile. We should get behind him, if he was playing with another striker we might be a weaker team overall, but he would be scoring and creating plenty.

I get that yes, I am agreeing.

Why is the East getting all the plaudits? There were a few loud bellends in the main using the generally peace in there as a platform to make the hilarious Higdon abuse clearly audible - what hearing that stuff must do to his game I don't know but he looks to me like a player who has just about given up. He is overweight for a footballer (as is Jennings) - that's his fault. However, he is being played as a target man with no one playing off him - that is not his fault. If you think we should be playing from the flanks with a five foot stiker up top - that is your fault for being fuking thick.

Fair bit of Youtube nostalgia going on in this thread – under Tommy McLean we were routinely lambasted for playing the leagues most negative tactics against the OF, particularly at Greyskull. 11 behind the ball from the off, chopping and time wasting. No saying these were bad tactics we got the odd 1-0 I think, but the fearless ‘toe- to-toe’ approach is wide of the mark. We play an attacking possession based game under McCall which generally doesn’t translate well against far superior opposition. No big deal. We were brilliant in CIS semi I thought though and far better in the last game against Rangers that was credited on here (first time I have seen Rangers come to Fir Park to play on the break).

Seem to recall several St Mirran fans saying he would frustrate, get blown for fouls just for being near the ball, and ge misused as a target man just becase he's big. All about right. Can't say he has impressed but he clearly needs more than five games to find his game here, there's no doubt he has something about him. Can't beleive all the Super Sutton comparisons too - Sutton took three seasons to become a first team pick!

The window of the club shop says 12 August for the new away shirt.

That's Crags move to cellic scuppered. Brilliant piece, hope Murphy reads it. He should be staying this season and playing himself into a prem move, Faddy/Goodwillie style.

The big Well question right now is up front. Think Higdon is 50/50 to succeed with us. Could go like this – We keep Murphy, bring in a quality understudy on loan, Higdon settles and scores 15. We are one of the most dangerous and balanced teams in league and fight for 4th. Or like this – Murphy leaves, Higdon lumps about on his own up front watching balls fly over his head, we bring in not much. Or even like this – McHugh bursts onto the scene and steals the season – he impressed in Dumbarton. I'll go 5th for well, not bothered about the rest. Badly want a win against Celtic the CF was painful. And I think Hearts may bomb, and I hope they do.

If we had an old failing ground on land the value of which would fund a stadium the majority of the fans would love then moving would be the obvious answer. That is not the situation we are in. We have a brilliant, historic, central, ground with one failing stand and pitch issues. Over the next ten year FP needs only to replace the O'Donnell, with something comparable but contemporary, shift to a top range artificial pitch (as most Scottish clubs will anyway) and stick standing areas across the length of the East. This will have to funded in the slow boring way that these things are always funded. I think a lot of the support for moving comes from the same impatience for change for changes sake that sees some sections of our support go mental and bang on about 'disgrace' every bloody year because we haven't signed enough players, or got the new strip out, or whatever. I mean, Amonvale, are you fxcking joking, that would break my heart. Sober assessment - we are a wee club in a run down area with a 5k home support, we do not need a hotel or a dedicated train line. We do need to address a stand and pitch which have become tired and uneconomic.

Get a grip

Think Murphy will be our biggest player next season if we can hold onto him. Cup final is not a good indicator, there was a real determination to attack through Humphry. Murphs form from mid-season on was exceptional, he has broken through and will tear defences apart in SPL from here on in. Also started to show suprising form from deep - incisive passing and compsure on the ball when possession was pressured. Losing him now would damage the team and the coffers as his value will double very quickly. All IMHO of course.

If Hughes is the same player he was when he left us he'd be first name on the team sheet. I understand that he was frustrating at times, but he is capable of lifting us to a level we have not played at for ages. Who the fxk is Samaras?

Everyone in Scotland seems to have decided Sutton is a top striker. I like the guy a lot, contrary to the crazy comments a couple of pages back Sutton had the knack of scoring important goals and a brilliant attitude and work rate. I'll hate it if we end up booing him but given his new colours - what else are we going to do? Doesn't change the fact that he hs been third choice at Well under a couple of managers and for a few years - not a star player and no great loss. Higdon could go either way but I suspect he'll do well. For some reason we often make ok strikers look good. Would take JOB back in a heartbeat. Likewise, the Hughes haters haven't a clue. Why does such a large section of our support always long for us to play like the pale blue bores - St J/Killie?

Very best wishes to JS. Struggled to hold his place for most of his time here but never looked peeved or disinterested any any game I've seen. Total pro, I think he could have a good couple of seasons ahead of him. Shame it's them though.

This thread has been full, from start to finish, of fans who clearly have tickets giving it ‘stop the pant wetting’, ‘its amusing to see you panicking over nothing, ‘we won’t sell 16,000’ and various other forms of self satisfied pish. As a non-Shire based Well fan who hasn’t had a call despite being on the database and registering for the ballot within an hour of it going up, I can tell you it’s God awful not knowing at this stage whether I can go to cup final. We got about 16K for the CIS and I along with many others had to come on Well forums begging for a couple of spare tickets (thanks again Wellmade), having to answer questions on my family history, Well loyalty, and getting accused of being a secret bun in the process. It was a total scramble at the end. Since that was a lesser game against a team with a smaller support, on what possible basis can anyone be so damn sure that ‘every Well fan that wants a ticket will get one’? I’ll be very surprised if there aren’t decent regularly attending fans left gutted – hope I’m not one of them but either way I’ll have a whole lot of sympathy for those that miss out to occasional supporters, grannys, T’s and H’s. Not blaming the club for this by the way, a general sale would’ve been cheaper and easier for the ticket office, but would have guaranteed a larger proportion of infiltration.

OH NO! That's Kayal broken his arm. Was really looking forward to seeing him in the final.

Since making the final my biggest worry has been that McCall believes our semi-final 4-4-2, with Murphy and Humph wide, and Sutton and Jeffers up front, is our best and only formation. The majority on here thought this was the way to go against St J, me too, but I am convinced the Celtic midfield will have us on toast if we try this in the final. The game against Rangers on Sat showed what should be obvious, that a pair of attacking wingers with Las and Jennings is extremely lightweight and will get overrun if matched against another more balanced four. Actually, if we're honest this happened for large periods in the semi, and for 70 mins and Tyncastle. 4-4-2 allows us to play four in form attacking players and no doubt this has proved brilliantly effective in key games this season, usually on the basis that we get a goal or two in the first half hour. However, Celtic's battling midfield is their greatest strength and will not allow us time to gather momentum in a Hampden final. We must IMO outnumber them in the middle, get a little more defensive, and allow Murph and Humph to stream forward from wide into a 4-3-3 when we get the ball in a decent position. Sutton in the middle with Jeffers on the bench obviously. I'm posting this now mainly out of frustration after the Rangers game as I really thought we'd go five in the middle against a stronger team hunting for the title, as a dress rehearsal for the final if nothing else. No surprise we got pumped. Contrary to several comments we were not the better team in the first half, we played the ball around well but looked flimsy and liable to lose goals from the outset. Really hoping to see a change of emphasis emerging in our remaining games. May well be that McCall wouldn't dream of matching up against Celtic in this manner of course, he employed a 3/5 in the middle at FP and we beat them 2-0. Surely we'll need some bedding in before Hampden though? Thoughts?

Load's of caution in this thread, but we are strong favourites for this. We have key players playing in the form and confidence of their life and have practically stopped conceeding goals - form and belief is with us and I think the team will have a great performance against Rangers in the last semi fresh in their memories. The look of Humph and Murphy at Tynecastle, along with the options in form Sutton and Jeffers offer, will be too much for a St J side that can't score - 2-0 Well and to hell with jinxing it!

Ace thread. I'm in the 'hated us taking such an obvious bun now i think he's a good guy and we're gonna win the cup' catagory. It's the hot catagory to be in right not, get in there.

Take away the admin years, and I'd like to see the record of the club under Boyle as compared to other phases in our history, or any other comparable club. Love his decisive style and TV outbursts, JB is a Well legend!