What Does Murphy Need To Do?

[Jym Bob]

Jamie Murphy must be so bloody frustrated. What more does he need to do to get a look in with Scotland?

 

I know this thread may need to be moved to Tartan Army but wanted to ensure the masses were aware.

 

Murph has again been overlooked for the latest Scotland squad, but yet the likes of James Forrest, Barry Robson, Danny Wilson and ofcourse Goodwille are included.

 

Murph plays 90 mins week in week out, unlike some of the above. He has shown he can play in multiple positions, unlike some of the above and has the skill to unlock or run through defences again unlike some of the above.

 

IMO - Levien has needs to take off his Arab / Old Firm or ex-Old Firm glasses for the good of our national team!

 

 

He is certainly on the fringe and will just have to keep plugging away, trying to improve his consistancy and strength and stamina as I feel he is too easily brushed aside and needs to toughen up a bit. I felt on Sat (when Levein was watching him) he gave up the chase to easily - the number of times he let Pascali move forward unchallanged was not acceptable and would`nt go unnoticed by Levien .

[Guest]

Weren't Garry Kenneth and Scott Robertson the only two United players in that squad though? I agree though, suggestions of a United player bias are mental and can be easily disproved just by looking at the squads.

 

Levein has been poor so far and even if we manage to qualify, I don't think I'll ever forgive him for the 4-6-0 debacle - but I don't think his actual squads have been the problem.

 

Was Dixon/Conway not in that squad as well? I can't really remember. In fairness, Robertson has been very unlucky with injuries and just doesn't seem able to get fit. If he could, he'd probably be in my Scotland squad. The season he moved across the street he was remarkable.

 

The Czech game was a terrible decision, but if he'd gone for it and lost 1-0, we'd have been in precisely the same position, we'll never really know though. This group was always going to be a work in progress for me, there is a lot of talent in the squad. I'm not sure we're using it as well as we could, plus being as light as we are at centre-half is a major issue.

[Steve Diggle]

Setting aside the mythical Dundee Utd stuff aside - it came about quite clearly when a lot of them were pulled into the squad for one game in particular - I don't remember which. The squad after call offs etc ended up including 5 or 6 Dundee Utd players. One of which was big babyheid. Thats when it started and it stuck. That's how things happen in football. You shag wan sheep . . . . .

 

Jamie Murphy should be in this squad due to his form over the final months of last season and aside from the Killie game on saturday - his form pre-season and on the opening day has been decent enough.

 

I can see arguments as to why maybe overall he might be coming up a wee bit short.

 

However when the manager is once again including players that haven't kicked a competitive ball - then questions are justified.

 

These guys have short careers and when their form merits inclusion they should be included ahead of reserves and players relying on their form 4 seasons ago.

 

And btw - Gary kenneth dreams at night about being half decent. His inclusion in any squad should have resulted in police records for those responsible.

 

In threads like these I sometimes feel I shouldn't post - because our resident celebrity Tartan Army members give out that air of superiority & infallability - But fuck it - thats what I think

[Jay]

Setting aside the mythical Dundee Utd stuff aside – it came about quite clearly when a lot of them were pulled into the squad for one game in particularly – I don’t remember which. The squad after calls offs etc ended up including 5 or 6 Dundee Utd players.

 

I genuinely don’t remember such a squad. 5 or 6 seems a bit of an exaggeration to me, I can’t even think of 5 or 6 United players that have been picked, never mind all at once. Happy to admit I’m wrong though if this squad was chosen. I’m bored out my mind at work though, so I might have a look on the SFA site. The only truly mental squad I remember Levein choosing was the one for the Faroes game featuring the likes of Paul Caddis and Steven Saunders.

 

Jamie Murphy should be in this squad due to his form over the final months of last season and aside from the Killie game on Saturday – his form pre-season and on the opening day has been decent enough.

 

I can see arguments as to why maybe overall he might be coming up a wee bit short.

 

Apparently it’s been suggested by an STV reporter (posted above somewhere above) that Murphy just narrowly missed out.

 

However when the manager is once again including players that haven’t kicked a competitive ball – then questions are justified.

 

I agree with that up to a point. I can understand why Levein includes the likes of Bannan, Wilson and Hanley – but, as I said earlier, if that’s part of his policy, then the likes of Templeton and Murphy should also feature.

 

Gary kenneth dreams at night about being half decent.

 

Well, I can’t claim to have watched Kenneth as much as you obviously have to make such a judgement, but I’ve always seen a bit old-style centre-half who’d header anything whenever I’ve seen him play. Given he’s been a regular for Dundee United for years and was the subject of a bid from Blackpool last year, allied to the fact that his inclusion doesn’t seem to result in Arabs moaning or demanding a replacement, I’d say he’s clearly a half-decent SPL defender.

 

In threads like these I sometimes feel I shouldn’t post – because our resident celebrity Tartan Army members give out that air of superiority & infallibility

 

Very good. Please don't let us big, superior, celebrity TA members participating in a relevant debate deter you from doing the same. Now can this thread be moved to the TA Section so there's less of the "club only" peasants and riff-raff on it?!

[Guest]

Setting aside the mythical Dundee Utd stuff aside - it came about quite clearly when a lot of them were pulled into the squad for one game in particular - I don't remember which. The squad after call offs etc ended up including 5 or 6 Dundee Utd players. One of which was big babyheid. Thats when it started and it stuck. That's how things happen in football. You shag wan sheep . . . . .

 

The one in your head maybe? Webster in the Czech friendly squad, Kenneth and Robertson in the Sweden squad, Kenneth in the Faroes squad, Conway in the NI squad.

 

 

Jamie Murphy should be in this squad due to his form over the final months of last season and aside from the Killie game on saturday - his form pre-season and on the opening day has been decent enough.

 

I can see arguments as to why maybe overall he might be coming up a wee bit short.

 

However when the manager is once again including players that haven't kicked a competitive ball - then questions are justified.

 

These guys have short careers and when their form merits inclusion they should be included ahead of reserves and players relying on their form 4 seasons ago.

 

And btw - Gary kenneth dreams at night about being half decent. His inclusion in any squad should have resulted in police records for those responsible.

 

It hardly seems relevant to bring up the 'reserves' argument. The players he's called up that aren't playing much are Wilson, Hanley and Bannan. We've got nae centre-halfs of any real merit. Berra perhaps, but even at that, he's hardly convincing. So what do you do? Keep picking Caldwells or McManus at centre-half? Or Bring back Weir? None of them are taking Murphy's 'place'.

 

Kenneth, I imagine was brought in for the same reason. With Webster standing next to him he was about a million times a better player than he is without him. It was worth a punt, it didn't work so he's gone because he wasn't good enough.

 

As for past form, the only one that screams that is Robson, and I entirely agree that he should be gone.

 

FWIW, Murphy, for me, is just about worth a place, as mentioned though, he needs more consistency. When he isn't on it, he's pretty far off the pace.

[prideoflanarkshire]

Like Murphy, think he is going to be a very decent player, however, dont think he is ready and think there is a good few better than him.

 

For me has to many poor games and more poorer games than good games against the bigger clubs

[Easy Target]

As with all Motherwell players, he needs to leave Motherwell before even being considered for a call up. Also, with Levein's habit of picking his old Dundee United pals, moving there would mean an instant call up.

[Jay]

As with all Motherwell players, he needs to leave Motherwell before even being considered for a call up.

 

Does Steven Saunders know this?

 

 

Also, with Levein's habit of picking his old Dundee United pals, moving there would mean an instant call up.

 

[robinho 74]

 

Well, I can't claim to have watched Kenneth as much as you obviously have to make such a judgement, but I've always seen a bit old-style centre-half who'd header anything whenever I've seen him play. Given he's been a regular for Dundee United for years and was the subject of a bid from Blackpool last year, allied to the fact that his inclusion doesn't seem to result in Arabs moaning or demanding a replacement, I'd say he's clearly a half-decent SPL defender.

 

 

 

Even if, by your deduction, he is anywhere near a half decent SPL defender, how many managers without a Dundee Utd leaning would have picked him for an international squad, let alone started him in a match?

[Jay]

 

Even if, by your deduction, he is anywhere near a half decent SPL defender, how many managers without a Dundee Utd leaning would have picked him for an international squad, let alone started him in a match?

 

That's irrelevant though, surely? If a newly appointed international manager recognises that the side is crying out for new centre halves and genuinely believes that a player he spent years working with will be capable of doing a job - or at least has the potential to do so - then it's surely completely natural and understandable that said player will be called up? Especially, as has already been mentioned, it occurred while Kenneth was apart of a pretty decent partnership at club level with Webster.

 

There's a difference between having a "Dundee United leaning", and including a player who plays in a problem position based on your previous club experience, then discarding him when you realise he can't step up.

[robinho 74]

That's irrelevant though, surely? If a newly appointed international manager recognises that the side is crying out for new centre halves and genuinely believes that a player he spent years working with will be capable of doing a job - or at least has the potential to do so - then it's surely completely natural and understandable that said player will be called up? Especially, as has already been mentioned, it occurred while Kenneth was apart of a pretty decent partnership at club level with Webster.

 

There's a difference between having a "Dundee United leaning", and including a player who plays in a problem position based on your previous club experience, then discarding him when you realise he can't step up.

 

Fair points I guess, just seems incredibly short sighted to me that he couldn't see the bigger picture on this one (and which most reasonable observers of Scottish football could see).

 

Edit to say: Back on topic - whilst I agree that Murphy is inconsistent, this would have been the perfect opportunity to give him a run out and see if he can lift his game. He's always done well for the under 21's as well, a factor that I think is underrated by managers.

Edited August 2, 2011 by robinho 74

[Joeboy]

Since Levein took over, he has called up Garry Kenneth, Andy Webster, Paul Dixon, Craig Conway, Scott Robertson and David Goodwillie- all whilst playing Dundee United. He had three of his back four in his first squad. If you look at the rest of the SPL, we've had Saunders called up, Aberdeen have had Maguire called up, Hearts have had Wallace called up, Kilmarnock have had Bell and Bryson called up, St. Johnstone have had Murray Davidson called up. Anyone who tries to suggest that Dundee United have six times the international talent of the rest of the clubs, other than Kilmarnock which is three, is talking pish.

 

I'm not saying he rushes to put those players in his starting eleven, but if you look at the above he finds it a lot easier to call up a Dundee United player than another provincial player. Of all the players above mentioned, I think only Goodwillie is good enough. When Mark Reynolds wasn't getting a call up at Motherwell, I was a bit miffed, not because I thought he was an international class centre back, simply because I thought he was better than Garry Kenneth. I think most would agree that George Burley, Walter Smith, Alex McLeish or any other Scotland manager wouldn't have touched Kenneth with a bargepole.

 

Again, I'm annoyed that Murphy hasn't been included in the full team before, not because I think he is brilliant, but he merits it more than James Forrest, who was a fringe player at Celtic last year, all I can remember him doing is getting sent off against Accies and more than Chris Maguire, who in my opinion, is a worse player than Murphy. What annoys me is who has been capped instead of him, rather than him having been capped.

[Lobey_Dosser]

On the last two occasions that Levein has been at a Motherwell game, Murphy has been non-existent.

 

If he shows what we know he is capable of on a more regular basis, he will be in the squad. I imagine a good performance this Sunday will propel him to first in line should there be any call-offs.

[Jay]

Since Levein took over, he has called up Garry Kenneth, Andy Webster, Paul Dixon, Craig Conway, Scott Robertson and David Goodwillie- all whilst playing Dundee United.

 

IMO Webster, Conway and Goodwillie all deserved call-ups at the time (especially Webster given he was arguable United's best player and we were, and still are, needing centre halves), Dixon was called up at the same time as Lee Wallace as Levein struggled to find a left-back, and Scott Robertson was originally in and around the Scotland squad before Levein was appointed. The only one out of that list that raises eyebrows, for me, is Kenneth - and I've already explained why I think he was included.

 

Let's not forget this was a side that was one of, if not the, best non-Old Firm side in the SPL at the time. That's not really relevant though. My point is, however, that this mythical squad that Levein named with 5 or 6 Dundee United players in it - either once or on multiple occasions - never actually happened, and yet it seems to be taken as fact that it did. It seems to be one of those things that has been said enough times that people actually believe it.

 

As I've said with regards to Kenneth, being appointed as an international manager and naming players who you have indepth experience and knowledge of, and who you believe can do a job, isn't some mental occurance - it's completely natural and understandable, it's blatant common sense (and in the case of Garry Kenneth, it was also naive because he's a player who is not anywhere near international quality). But I fail to see how anyone can really argue with that concept - it's not some sort of underhand "jobs for the boys", or a pro-United conspiracy - it's a new manager starting with a limited database of Scottish players and building up his knowledge of eligble players over his term in charge. As he has, the United players you have mentioned have mainly dropped out - that surely backs up this argument?

 

I'd rather change the record though, because I feel like I'm constantly defending Craig Levein and I don't really want to as I think he's a cock. I only am defending him with regards to the United-bias claims, he's still an arsepiece who owes me a flight home from Prague, and I'd have sacked him on the spot the moment he put out a 4-6-0.

 

Back on topic, if the STV reporter is correct that Bell, Murphy and Wallace narrowly missed out, then there's still a very good chance Jamie will be in the squad after call-offs.

[Davie boy]

As much as a hate Levein, he is right not to pick Murphy.

 

Plays a dozen good games on the bounce, he has a case!

 

Murphs a good player, but has a bit to go yet before hes a top player.

[Joeboy]

IMO Webster, Conway and Goodwillie all deserved call-ups at the time (especially Webster given he was arguable United's best player and we were, and still are, needing centre halves), Dixon was called up at the same time as Lee Wallace as Levein struggled to find a left-back, and Scott Robertson was originally in and around the Scotland squad before Levein was appointed. The only one out of that list that raises eyebrows, for me, is Kenneth - and I've already explained why I think he was included.

 

Let's not forget this was a side that was one of, if not the, best non-Old Firm side in the SPL at the time. That's not really relevant though. My point is, however, that this mythical squad that Levein named with 5 or 6 Dundee United players in it - either once or on multiple occasions - never actually happened, and yet it seems to be taken as fact that it did. It seems to be one of those things that has been said enough times that people actually believe it.

 

As I've said with regards to Kenneth, being appointed as an international manager and naming players who you have indepth experience and knowledge of, and who you believe can do a job, isn't some mental occurance - it's completely natural and understandable, it's blatant common sense (and in the case of Garry Kenneth, it was also naive because he's a player who is not anywhere near international quality). But I fail to see how anyone can really argue with that concept - it's not some sort of underhand "jobs for the boys", or a pro-United conspiracy - it's a new manager starting with a limited database of Scottish players and building up his knowledge of eligble players over his term in charge. As he has, the United players you have mentioned have mainly dropped out - that surely backs up this argument?

 

I'd rather change the record though, because I feel like I'm constantly defending Craig Levein and I don't really want to as I think he's a cock. I only am defending him with regards to the United-bias claims, he's still an arsepiece who owes me a flight home from Prague, and I'd have sacked him on the spot the moment he put out a 4-6-0.

 

Back on topic, if the STV reporter is correct that Bell, Murphy and Wallace narrowly missed out, then there's still a very good chance Jamie will be in the squad after call-offs.

 

Agree with most of what you say there. I don't think it's "jobs for the boys" as the number of them who have continually been in the squad is minimal to zero. I think it is easier for him to pick Dundee Utd players when for example he is looking to fill a squad, perhaps slightly justifiably as he will know their abilities a bit better than anyone else. I think Webster was a deserved call up too, if he hadn't been so injury prone I reckon he would be our firm first choice centre back by now. As for Paul Dixon, I don't think he is or ever has been worthy of a place in the squad, I can't understand why Kevin McNaughton has always been overlooked, he has been playing left back at a good level his entire career. As for Scott Robertson, I can honestly think of ten players I'd play before him at centre midfield, but that was Burley who initiated his international career. Conway could be a squad filler for a friendly, but I think Goodwillie is one who is totally worthy of a call up.

 

I guess I just have a gripe with Levein, like yourself, I lost all faith in him when he played no strikers against the Czech Republic. A couple of his other decisions leave a lot to be desired about. Favouring anyone from England whose Granny had a can of Irn Bru once over a homegrown £7 million striker who has proved he can score goals at Premiership level is crazy. Not that I'm defending Fletcher's sulk. Also favouring someone who does a steady but unspectacular job for Rangers, Lee McCulloch, over someone who Spurs and Liverpool were desperate to sign doesn't fill you with confidence.

[FJ-94]

dont know if anyone has posted this so far as ive only been bothered to read the first page so far but , as much as it pains me to say it goodwillie is a more suitable choice for the scotland squad , because he is stronger , more agressive and a cocky little c**t and is more aggressive in getting the ball from his team mates i.e he will moan and moan and moan untill he gets the ball .

 

murphy is great for motherwell playing in a league when generally it doesnt get too physical , when it does he cant deal with it which was shown at rugby park , and at international level the centre backs are usually giants and imo at motherwell he isnt very vocal and at international level the players dont have time to look about and see him in a good position.

 

All my opinion , love murphy but at international level its goodwillie for me .

 

raging about james forrest but he's played a handful of games for celtic and suddenly he's international class

[steelboy]

levein is a trophy dodging wanker.

 

its quite clear that as an ex dundee united manager and director he wants to increase the value of their players to get his mate back some of the dough his da pished away.

 

he's a petty vindictive prick as he showed in his interview after the spain game and all the ridiculous comments about his revolutionary 4-6-0 formation. would anyone be suprised if the reason he refuses to pick motherwell players is because a fir park door frame assualted his hand and sent him up to wishaw general when he had a hissy fit? no because as he's shown he's deluded enough to blame someone else for the fact that he was punching walls over a clear penalty.

 

murphy should be ahead of forrest and should have the caps that maguire has but what really shows levein up for the bitter, bitter man he is his continual snubbing of paul gallagher. the only possible reason is that levein is still raging about his managerial career being shot down in flames in leicester and can't bring himself to call up one of their players.

 

we drew a decent group at the weekend in which there is a lot of potential for dropped points. we need to get a decent manager on board who's idea of tactical innovation isn't playing without a striker or sticking lee wilkie or kevin mckenna up front.

[Jay]

would anyone be suprised if the reason he refuses to pick motherwell players is because a fir park door frame assualted his hand and sent him up to wishaw general when he had a hissy fit? no because as he's shown he's deluded enough to blame someone else for the fact that he was punching walls over a clear penalty.

 

He doesn't refuse to pick Motherwell players though.

[Tweed]

I don't necessarily like Levein but he is a winner and he'll want to play the players that give him the best chance of winning. Whether we agree with him is a matter of debate but to suggest he is picking people for any reason other than for scotland to do well is insane. For what its worth I think he has called this one right.

[Steve Diggle]

What? James Forrest over Jamie Murphy?

 

Aye?

 

Really?

 

Fuck me!

 

I fuckin despair

[steelboy]

I don't necessarily like Levein but he is a winner

 

Hearts

 

Scottish Cup Runner-up: 1

 

1985–86

 

Scottish PFA Young Player of the Year: 2

 

1985, 1986

Manager

Hearts

 

SPL Manager of the Month: 2

 

Dec 2001, Apr 2003

 

Dundee United

 

SPL Manager of the Month: 4

 

Nov 2006, Mar 2007, Oct 2007, Nov 2009

 

Scottish League Cup Runner-up: 1

 

2007–08

 

incredible stuff. he's like a scottish franz beckenbauer.

[MelvinBragg]

As someone who doesn't give a damn about Scotland (last Scotland goal I celebrated was scored by David Clarkson), it's pretty easy for me to look at it dispassionately.

 

Whose place would Murphy take in the squad? The only forward thinking player in the squad you could argue Murphy has more right to be there than is Forrest and he's a winger. I say this never having seen Mackail-Smith play.

 

The Paul Gallacher question is an interesting one. At a time when playing well at Championship level is generally enough to get you in the Scotland squad, the fact that he's never really had a shot seems odd.

 

If you were starting with a blank piece of paper, Murphy probably wouldn't be anywhere near the squad. Starting with the squad currently picked, you could make a case for his inclusion but you could equally make a case for McGuire, Gallacher and possibly others ahead of him.

 

From a Motherwell point of view, I'm glad he wasn't picked. How much did a 20 minute cameo increase Saunders' transfer value because even if Murphy had been called up, that's what he'd be looking at. So no financial benefit for us. On the other hand, if he were to pick up any kind of injury in a meaningless friendly, it could be disastrous for our season. A cap would, of course, be a nice honour for Murphy. But I can't see any benefit for us from him getting a call-up for this game..

[Lobey_Dosser]

Paul Gallagher is the one that gets me. Outstanding by all accounts last season. Wish one of the journalists would question him on it.

 

As long as Steven Fletcher is out the squad, Levein isn't the man for the job.

[Wellfan1984]

The only thing I don't get about the whole case is we seem to be one of those nations that don't call up our best Under 21 players. On Under 21 duty, you had 4 strikers Murphy, Goodwillie, Maguire and Griffiths. All but Murphy has been capped at either B Level or Senior level, while Murphy was the one that from watching the Under 21's you'd have classed as international class - even when Scotland were rotten (being humped by Norn Iron 3-1) Murphy looked the best player on the park by a country mile - between the two sides.

 

It is not a new thing though, the amount of players that are lost between Under 21 and Senior level.