Ya Bezzer! Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 First of all I don't understand all the fuss over a banner about a 4th Century nomadic tribe. This amateur etymology argument is bullshit. By applying that argument you can say lots of offensive terms aren't offensive by ignoring the context they are used in or focusing on one of many derivations of meaning. One would be that its perfectly fine to describe Chris Humphrey as a 'negro' when everyone knows it isn't. Likewise, everyone knows the context the 'H' word is used in 21st century, west central Scotland. The 'H' word should not be used by anyone in that context, end of story and trying to justify its use is pathetic and hypocritical. Far too many fans of provincial club fans are guilty of double standards on these issues. They complain about the OF and then behave in exactly the same way, expressing exactly the same thoughts and ideas in exactly the same language. I'm no fan of the police, I think they were probably heavy handed lifting this kid and putting him out and a warning would have been enough, but they were quite right to remove the banner and I'd like to think, although I don't generally have a high opinion of Strathclyde's 'finest', that if Rangers fans had openly displayed a banner about 'Hating f*****s' I'm pretty sure it would have been removed to. It is, of course, more difficult to confiscate a song, or prove that an actual individual was singing a song. It's pretty simple - if you aren't sectarian don't use sectarian language and take care of your own house before you criticize others. The whole idea that its OK to do something because other people do it or get away with it belongs in the schoolyard. Personally, I think this incident and a lot of the opinions in this thread make us look just as backwards and troglodyte as a lot of other football supporters in this country. And I've got nothing against creating an atmosphere, the addition of the drum and chanting has been a step forward in that regard and just proves if it needed proving that creating atmosphere is a separate issue from sectarianism. I'm not entirely innocent myself. In the past I used these sorts of terms but a number of years ago I woke up to my own hypocrisy and stopped doing it. Might I suggest more people follow my lead. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 h**s were a nomadic people from Russia who took over large parts of Europe in AD 370. And Nicky Law has a pathological hatred of AD 730 nomads? Whether you agree with it or not (and of course the police were heavy handed), all these issues come down to context. If you live in the West of Scotland you unfortunately grow up knowing the terms of abuse used on both sides of the sectarian shenanigans. h*n is one such word, Tim is another. Mild, perhaps, and open to other definitions away from the parochial world religous bigotry - but to pretend they are used at OF football matches to discuss the finer points of human history is stretching it just a wee bit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 There is nothing at all sectarian about the word h*n. Its has become a derogatory word for protestants and was used to slag of the Germans in the war, by none other than Winston Churchill. h**s were a nomadic people from Russia who took over large parts of Europe in AD 370. I think what happened yesterday was ridiculous given the context of the opposition and their "largely ignored" mass behaviour, but come on...seriously? Anyone that make a point like that just sounds like they are blatantly trying to cover something up, it sounds more guilty than any banner itself would! If someone turned up with a banner with a big fuck off swastika on it, I think me, you, and everyone else would know that weren't intending to convey an ancient Egyptian message of peace. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_M_F_C Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Tbh I do see it from both sides, aye it is a bad word but to me it is about context. It's not filled with hate and bile here, its a wee tongue in cheek dig thats started with people singing the words featured on that banner to the tune of I fought the law(and the law won). The wee boy's picked up on that and made his banner but not in a context that is intended to demean protestants, in this case it was a wee dig at the h word referring to Rangers in general, not sectarian to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepper Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 This amateur etymology argument is bullshit. By applying that argument you can say lots of offensive terms aren't offensive by ignoring the context they are used in or focusing on one of many derivations of meaning. One would be that its perfectly fine to describe Chris Humphrey as a 'negro' when everyone knows it isn't. Likewise, everyone knows the context the 'H' word is used in 21st century, west central Scotland. The 'H' word should not be used by anyone in that context, end of story and trying to justify its use is pathetic and hypocritical. Far too many fans of provincial club fans are guilty of double standards on these issues. They complain about the OF and then behave in exactly the same way, expressing exactly the same thoughts and ideas in exactly the same language. I'm no fan of the police, I think they were probably heavy handed lifting this kid and putting him out and a warning would have been enough, but they were quite right to remove the banner and I'd like to think, although I don't generally have a high opinion of Strathclyde's 'finest', that if Rangers fans had openly displayed a banner about 'Hating f*****s' I'm pretty sure it would have been removed to. It is, of course, more difficult to confiscate a song, or prove that an actual individual was singing a song. It's pretty simple - if you aren't sectarian don't use sectarian language and take care of your own house before you criticize others. The whole idea that its OK to do something because other people do it or get away with it belongs in the schoolyard. Personally, I think this incident and a lot of the opinions in this thread make us look just as backwards and troglodyte as a lot of other football supporters in this country. And I've got nothing against creating an atmosphere, the addition of the drum and chanting has been a step forward in that regard and just proves if it needed proving that creating atmosphere is a separate issue from sectarianism. I'm not entirely innocent myself. In the past I used these sorts of terms but a number of years ago I woke up to my own hypocrisy and stopped doing it. Might I suggest more people follow my lead. Very well put. That's pretty much the bottom line isn't it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Tbh I do see it from both sides, aye it is a bad word but to me it is about context. It's not filled with hate and bile here, its a wee tongue in cheek dig thats started with people singing the words featured on that banner to the tune of I fought the law(and the law won). The wee boy's picked up on that and made his banner but not in a context that is intended to demean protestants, in this case it was a wee dig at the h word referring to Rangers in general, not sectarian to me. I pretty much agree with this. See if we were playing Aberdeen and the boy had the same sign but h*n was replaced with sheep shagger, would it have been dealt with in the same way? I think not. Whenever I hear that word It is used to describe Rangers fans rather than a whole religion. I've never heard anyone use it towards a minister etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 On the issue of context, surely the banner was clearly not intended as "we got the law and he hates protestants" but rather Rangers fans. I've never thought h*n and tim were commonly viewed as sectarian, just terms used for old firm fans, much like sheep shagger and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Just seen the above posts, so.. aye, agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siebsbarmyarmy Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 If the tipping point means we have rid Scottish football of the "t*ms" and "h*ns" and all of that jazz then I'll be over the moon. Fixed it for you...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santheman Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 This amateur etymology argument is bullshit. By applying that argument you can say lots of offensive terms aren't offensive by ignoring the context they are used in or focusing on one of many derivations of meaning. One would be that its perfectly fine to describe Chris Humphrey as a 'negro' when everyone knows it isn't. Likewise, everyone knows the context the 'H' word is used in 21st century, west central Scotland. The 'H' word should not be used by anyone in that context, end of story and trying to justify its use is pathetic and hypocritical. Far too many fans of provincial club fans are guilty of double standards on these issues. They complain about the OF and then behave in exactly the same way, expressing exactly the same thoughts and ideas in exactly the same language. I'm no fan of the police, I think they were probably heavy handed lifting this kid and putting him out and a warning would have been enough, but they were quite right to remove the banner and I'd like to think, although I don't generally have a high opinion of Strathclyde's 'finest', that if Rangers fans had openly displayed a banner about 'Hating f*****s' I'm pretty sure it would have been removed to. It is, of course, more difficult to confiscate a song, or prove that an actual individual was singing a song. It's pretty simple - if you aren't sectarian don't use sectarian language and take care of your own house before you criticize others. The whole idea that its OK to do something because other people do it or get away with it belongs in the schoolyard. Personally, I think this incident and a lot of the opinions in this thread make us look just as backwards and troglodyte as a lot of other football supporters in this country. And I've got nothing against creating an atmosphere, the addition of the drum and chanting has been a step forward in that regard and just proves if it needed proving that creating atmosphere is a separate issue from sectarianism. I'm not entirely innocent myself. In the past I used these sorts of terms but a number of years ago I woke up to my own hypocrisy and stopped doing it. Might I suggest more people follow my lead. Sorry, seems my attempt at injecting some humour into the debate fell short of the mark. I,ll try better the next time. Seems to me the wee guy probably thought the banner was funny rather than sectarian but I suppose in the current climate he was being a bit naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain7_mfc Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 The knuckle dragger in the south stand wasn't thrown out for having a king billy flag was he? Double standards and picking on the minority once again from Stratclydes finest! Nae wonder folk don't like the police! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSteelman Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I'm a Protestant, but would happily use the word h*n (more often the plural) to describe rangers FC or their fans. Certainly not sectarian, derogatory at worst. I predicted when these laws came out that it would be Motherwell, killie, stmirren... fans that were made an example of. If the boy had a sign saying "we've got the law and he hates proddys" that would be a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted August 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I predicted when these laws came out that it would be Motherwell, killie, stmirren... fans that were made an example of. Along with many others, biggest stick on since Craig Thomson started refereeing games involving Motherwell that we'd be one of those shafted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 Albi - like I said I've been emboiled in many an argument on here re sectarianism - re chants and shouts from our section of the crown. Been in a minority on loads of it but fought the good fight. However if the lad was chucked out for that banner then we've reached the tipping point of no return. Even myself the last bastion of anti sectarianism proud defender of james mccarthy etc need to throw in the towel on this one. We might as well all stay in the house on match days. Holy and utter lumpin fuck I've got to agree with this. In the grand scheme of things, the word "h*n" (like "Tim") is nothing. It's used regularly by everyone, including Rangers fans describing themselves (and Celtic fans describing themselves) as well as on things like Only An Excuse. By all means, if we finally rid the country of the cancer of sectarianism apart from the use of words like these (if they even count as sectarianism, which I'd dispute), then fair enough - maybe then it's time to start taking a serious stance, but c'mon to fuck, let's not start pretending like the word is in the same bracket as the "n" word when it comes to offence. I noticed the banner when it was first held up before the game and saw a handful of Rangers fans pointing at laughing at it. That was the entire response to the banner. I assume it was then brandished again later, given the wee guy wasn't chucked out before the game - presumably someone was off Googling "h*n" to see if they had a reason to chuck him out or not. However, whether or not the actual word on the banner is offensive or not is irrelevant and not the issue. The issue is that the police, as usual, completely ignored the hordes of bigots in the South Stand and either side of the Main Stand, yet waded in to lift a child who was a bit naive when making a banner. It's absolutely embarrassing and yet not remotely surprising. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postiejim Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 If you hate the Glasgow Celtic clap your hands was sung on Sunday, if were going to apply the letter of the law this must be an offensive song to those nice Celtic chaps. I mean what would happen if people started chanting if ye hate shirt lifters clap yer hands or if ye hate coloured gentlemen clap your hands ,i mean what a tizzy those nice police persons would be in.:Yet another example of a law poorly thought out and badly implemented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madscot Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 On the topic of sectarianism ,was i the only one that heard the ftp and the vatican song from the couple of hundred gers fans copper end of the POD? Are you allowed red hand of Ulster flags or are they banned? There was a Scottish saltire in the POD with a red hand of Ulster in the middle of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC_MKI Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 The issue is that the police, as usual, completely ignored the hordes of bigots in the South Stand and either side of the Main Stand, What exactly did the Rangers support do/sing/chant at yesterday's match that should have merited the police intervening, in your view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 What exactly did the Rangers support do/sing/chant at yesterday's match that should have merited the police intervening, in your view? A few of the individual shouts from the Rangers fans closest to the end of the East Stand were interesting, and in the usual spirit of "if you're not one, you're the other". And if a banner with the word "h*n" on it is deemed as offensive enough to merit a banning order, I don't see why King Billy and No Surrender flags should be deemed as acceptable at a game of football. To answer your question though, nothing the Rangers support did should have merited the police intervening in my view, the same way as nothing the 'Well fans did - including the h*n banner - should have merited the police intervening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star sail Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I've always liked this theory on the use of offensive language. This is the thoughts of the controversal 60's comedian Lenny Bruce although in this case it is Dustin Hoffman playing Lenny Bruce. I am not sure to what extent it applies in this case but it is an interesting theory on the supression of words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orange county dosser Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 just a quick point on this one....... it was said earlier in the thread that the coppers wouldn't go into the South Stand to eject the H.U.N.S. with the King Billy flag, as they would be outnumbered. thats the shitey-ist argument I've ever heard .....they came into the East Stand to eject that wee laddie, and there wasnt 2000 cops in there to do it ! they chose to eject an easy target, for a banner that had already been removed, rather than actually watching / listening to the shite being spouted from the knuckle-draggers that are the very route of the problem ! .....after all, we dont actually need a Police "anti-sectarian unit" presence at Fir Park when we play any team outside the Bigot Brothers........what does that tell you ??? its not rocket science .......is it ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albi Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 To answer your question though, nothing the Rangers support did should have merited the police intervening in my view So the Police didn't ignore the "hordes of bigots" in the South Stand? The "hordes of bigots" just didn't do anything wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnstone Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 If someone turned up with a banner with a big fuck off swastika on it, I think me, you, and everyone else would know that weren't intending to convey an ancient Egyptian message of peace. Just stating facts. Not saying I agree with the banner but as others have said Rangers and Celtic fans use the word Tim and h*n to describe themselves. There is even a 'Tim land' in the Barras!! Also maybe this has been discussed but why if the banner was taken off him does he then get lifted about an hour later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 So the Police didn't ignore the "hordes of bigots" in the South Stand? The "hordes of bigots" just didn't do anything wrong? The "hordes of bigots" did as much wrong as the child with the banner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted August 22, 2011 Report Share Posted August 22, 2011 I've never been quite sure if the term "H*n" is sectarian or not but by their actions yesterday the Police would seem to confirm that it is. That wasn't their stance at the Cup Final mind you. One of my abiding memories of the Cup Final was thousands yes, thousands ofr Celtic fans in the South Stand singing lustily "Go home ya H**ns. Now if that isn't sectarian what is? One law for us and one for the real bigots. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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