Jay Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Whenever this subject seems to crop up, I can never quite get my head around the "proud to be British" argument. If you are, then of course that's perfectly fine. But everything is about context. In the context of Scottish football, flying a Union flag at Celtic Park has absolutely nothing to do with being proud to be British. I'd be shocked if, even some people on Steelmen Online, actually argued against that. Context is important in every walk of life. If you are just going to reply to the subject of a Union flag in the 'Well end on Saturday with the reply "there's nothing wrong with being proud of being British" then you are correct, but it is irrelevant to the context of what we're talking about. In Scottish football, the Union flag is first and foremast a symbol of Rangers. You can argue it shouldn't be, but that doesn't change the fact that this is the case in the context of Scottish football. The Swastika was a Buddhist symbol long before the Nazis were around. If you are a proud Buddhist you may wish to display the Swastika in your own home or wear imagery showing the Swastika when you're at a temple or surrounded with other Buddhists. But you probably wouldn't go to Asda and expect to stoat about shwoing off the Swastika without reply. That is because, in the context of general society, the Swastika is a symbol of Nazism, Facism and evil. You could log onto a forum and argue that there should be nothing wrong with showin that you are proud to be a Buddhist, but you also would have to accept that people would criticise and raise questions depending on the context of the situation. This is no different. In Scottish football grounds, Union flag = h**s. You argue all day that it shouldn't do, but it does. Your political viewpoints, your pride or lack of, or whether you're just a fan of flags - all that is irrelevant in the context that we are talking about. Now, whether or not you care is another thing. But regardless, when criticism starts, questions are asked, and the "mini-h**s" or "h**s without the bus fare" lines get trotted out, I fail to see how there can be much of an argument when folk are still talking a flag to Celtic Park knowing fine well it is completely and entirely to do with the fact that it is a symbol of Glasgow Rangers. If you want to show your pride at being British, hang the Union flag out your window or buy a flag pole for the garden. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want to take a national flag to a domestic club game anyway. European or International football, fair enough. IMO though the main point is Al B's. Our group that go to games always looks to be close to the lads that create all the atmosphere at games, but if we had been at Celtic Park on Saturday we'd have given them a wide berth. As for the point brought up about how if it's entirely a wind-up, there should be a Tricolour in the Motherwell end at Ibrox... unfortunately, I get the impression that if a Motherwell supporter unvieled the Irish flag at Ibrox in the sole attempt to wind-up the Rangers support, he'd also get abused by a few 'Well fans. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daver Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Surely Celtic fans can wave it in support of McGinn, McCourt and of course Neil Lennon. Our fans will also be waving Irish flags in support of Randolph and Clancy. Or we could all just get on with watching a game of football. Edit. This was supposed to be in reply to weesacs Craggs flag post but I hadn't realised we had gone on to yet another page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 The Swastika was a Buddhist symbol long before the Nazis were around. If you are a proud Buddhist you may wish to display the Swastika in your own home or wear imagery showing the Swastika when you're at a temple or surrounded with other Buddhists. But you probably wouldn't go to Asda and expect to stoat about shwoing off the Swastika without reply. That is because, in the context of general society, the Swastika is a symbol of Nazism, Facism and evil. You could log onto a forum and argue that there should be nothing wrong with showin that you are proud to be a Buddhist, but you also would have to accept that people would criticise and raise questions depending on the context of the situation. I made that exact point a wee while ago, and it's bang on. The worrying thing for me, is that too many people can't/don't separate the meaning of something from the context of something. They are two very different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I made that exact point a wee while ago, and it's bang on. I've only really glanced at a few pages in this thread so I must have missed that - it was the first example that jumped to mind though. The worrying thing for me, is that too many people can't/don't separate the meaning of something from the context of something. They are two very different things. Spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I've only really glanced at a few pages in this thread so I must have missed that - it was the first example that jumped to mind though. Ah I didn't necessarily mean on here, it might have just been in conversation. I just remember using that same example as it's a good parallel for true meaning Vs context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazilian Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 see I agree with much of what you two lads are saying its just for me in the context a union flag still doesn't mean h*n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albi Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 does that make me a bigot? Or does that just mean i hate Celtic fans? I think it means you are a very sad little man and need to grow up. 16 pages because they had flags British flags at a football ground means you're a h*n And people say Scotland is a backward country... Time for this thread to bite the dust methinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steviereidml1 Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I think it means you are a very sad little man and need to grow up. 16 pages because they had flags British flags at a football ground means you're a h*n And people say Scotland is a backward country... Time for this thread to bite the dust methinks. Or just saved and rolled out the next time were playing at Parkhead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 I think it means you are a very sad little man and need to grow up. 16 pages because they had flags British flags at a football ground means you're a h*n And people say Scotland is a backward country... Time for this thread to bite the dust methinks. When it comes to sectarian bigotry, Scotland is a backward country. You can try and take context out of the discussion, but anybody with an IQ bigger than their shoe size knows that taking a Union Jack to a Celtic game is different from taking one to Last Night of the Proms. All this "but it's just a show of Britishness" is at best, disingenuous. I'm all for freedom of speech and 100% believe you should be allowed to display whatever flag you like. However, freedom of speech also gives me the right to say it drags us down to the OF level; something I don't want to be associated with my club. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 When it comes to sectarian bigotry, Scotland is a backward country. You can try and take context out of the discussion, but anybody with an IQ bigger than their shoe size knows that taking a Union Jack to a Celtic game is different from taking one to Last Night of the Proms. All this "but it's just a show of Britishness" is at best, disingenuous. I'm all for freedom of speech and 100% believe you should be allowed to display whatever flag you like. However, freedom of speech also gives me the right to say it drags us down to the OF level; something I don't want to be associated with my club. We can never be dragged down to their level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Agreed It's fuckin stupid to deliberately take ourselves towards their level too though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigshinyhead Posted September 13, 2011 Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Haud the bus! Exactly who are the bigots here? The only reason smeltic fans get wound up about a British flag is surely because of their anti-British bigotry? Apologies if this point has already been made (canny be arsed flicking through 16 pages of pish) and I'm certainly not advocating Motherwell fans brandishing a Union Jack as it has very little to do with MFC but there seems to be far too much emphasis placed on those causing the 'offence' and not enough on why anybody would be offended by what is essentially the national flag. Had Motherwell fans been brandishing a red hand flag then that's a different story but a Union Jack? Sorry, but if you're offended by that then you're the bigot. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted September 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2011 Right lads, I think the discussion on the actual game against Celtic is pretty much over. Lets look forward to the game with St Johnstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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