Martin Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Losing by such massive margins can't do anything for the confidence of the team aswell, I'd argue thats maybe the biggest problem. The OF are miles a head of the rest in terms of quality, and we should get beat soundly every time we play them. But if other teams can put up a fight and not get absolutely pumped every time we play them, then we should anaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sdt Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 tl;dr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthebasement Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Fair bit of Youtube nostalgia going on in this thread – under Tommy McLean we were routinely lambasted for playing the leagues most negative tactics against the OF, particularly at Greyskull. 11 behind the ball from the off, chopping and time wasting. No saying these were bad tactics we got the odd 1-0 I think, but the fearless ‘toe- to-toe’ approach is wide of the mark. We play an attacking possession based game under McCall which generally doesn’t translate well against far superior opposition. No big deal. We were brilliant in CIS semi I thought though and far better in the last game against Rangers that was credited on here (first time I have seen Rangers come to Fir Park to play on the break). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 The main difference between the two teams yesterday was a fairly simple and basic one, and it's the thing that marks the difference between two sides of differing ability. When Celtic play, the runs made dictate what pass is played. When we play, the pass that is played dictates the run. That may sound as if there's not much of a difference, but irrespective of tactics, formations and individual player ability, it's the one thing that determines your penetration, your movement, whether your possession is in a key area or not, your ability to unlock a defence, and many others. All too often when we have the ball, the other players are waiting to see what he looks to do with it, therefore what happens next is decided by the guy playing the pass. That's fine in essence, and you'll have some excellent periods of possession against anyone and If you have players with good ability you'll win games against teams who also play that way. The difference with Rangers,Celtic and any team that plays on a level above us, is that this is reversed. In their case what happens next is dictated by the players who don't have the ball. They dictate where the ball should go next, and the job of the player in possession is to spot it and deliver it there. Even when we're playing well, our forward thinking players will look to see where the guy with the ball is looking to play it then when he does, the pass dictates the play, and then they will try to get on to the end of it. The downside of that is that defending players will spot it as well, and it's then just down to which of them is faster and stronger to get to it first, and has a wee bit more ability to do something with it if they do. We're winning games against the other sides who play like that because we have players with those qualities. In sides that are on a level above us though, forward thinking players don't wait. They make the run anyway and it's then the job of the guy with the ball to spot it. Ideally 2 or maybe three players make the run knowing that there's only a one in 2 or 3 chance the ball will come, but they make the run anyway. Those runs are what dictates the play, it's it's the job of the player in possession to spot it, choose the best option, and deliver the ball. Doing this, by the time the pass is played the receiving player is already away, has already lost his man, and they cut through even the most organised defence. Unless defenders can predict the future, they don't know where the pass is going to go so they can't commit until it is played. Forward players don't have that responsibility as they can commit and it doesn't matter if the ball doesn't come. But if it does...they are already 5, 6, 10 seconds ahead of the defender. Runs dictate where the ball will go, defender can't commit, defence sliced open. In addition to that, ideally you will have front men who are thinking even further ahead...Gary Hooper is excellent at this. When the Celtic midfield have the ball, the 3 players who will be looking to make a run will be say...Stokes, Hooper and Forrest. Stokes and Forrest will make their run in the hope that they will receive the ball, but Hooper won't. His run will be with a view to receiving the ball from Forrest (who doesn't even have it yet), on the assumption that that is where it's going to go. He's thinking two passes ahead and making his run off that, and if it turns out Forrest doesn't get the ball it doesn't matter...his run goes un-noticed as it wasn't used, and he simply looks to make another. if Forrest does get the ball however, the defending players then have to turn their attention to him....but he has the option of playing a first time ball which will put defenders on their arse because they haven't had time to set themselves....made possible because Hooper is already in space as he has worked on the assumption that Forrest will get the ball and made his move beforehand, while everyone else was waiting to see what was going to happen. That's really fucking difficult to explain in writing! But in essence, we're winning games against teams on our level, because it's a like-for-like contest in terms of approach, and our players have decent/better ability with the ball. Teams above our level however, win games because of the ability of the players who don't have the ball. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Great post Al - I get what you mean exactly - have been talking about if for a few weeks. If someone like Murphy could get into the mindset of making the run regardless of the outcome but expecting the pass / lay off / knock down then we'd be benefiting much much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 In addition, as far as I'm concerned that's the solution to the whole Murphy/Goodwillie debate. In terms of player ability, they are fairly similar (maybe Goodwillie just shades it), but the reason his career is taking off, is that he plays that way instinctively whereas Murphy doesn't. He'll have to learn it which automatically puts him way behind in terms of development. Trouble is for him to learn it, someone has to coach it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underboyleheating Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Putting my MJC hat on for a second... To be honest we will be lucky to get a point of these Glasgow inbreds ever again. Negative yes, but probably true. Celtic or Rangers could field their under 19s against us and we would still lose by 2 or 3 goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Kerse Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 One of the main reasons that Scottish Football MUST go to a 16 or 18 team league. Going to play the Old Firm in Glasgow puts any would-be challenger 12 points behind without kicking a ball. Say you manage a jammy draw in one game 11 points are still surrendered to the Old Firm. It is the same for every challenging team and why the Old Firm's stranglehold will never be beaten. It is obvious that if you got to play pish like Hamilton, Rath Rovers, Partick Thistle and Livi instead of more visits to Ibrox, Celtic park teams like ourselves and a good Hearts, Dundee Utd or whatever could accrue more points and close the gap. But unfortuanately money is more important to Scottish Football than any sort of competition. Unique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postiejim Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Putting my MJC hat on for a second... To be honest we will be lucky to get a point of these Glasgow inbreds ever again. Negative yes, but probably true. Celtic or Rangers could field their under 19s against us and we would still lose by 2 or 3 goals. Eh naw they widnae,massive gulf between under 19,s and first team ,massive . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 And their U19s were held to a draw by our U19s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Even when we're playing well, our forward thinking players will look to see where the guy with the ball is looking to play it... . A lot of sense in that Al. For some time now I've said that in OF games the main concern of both the player with the ball and those not on it is to ensure that when the ball is lost we can cover. This means that players on the ball are left isolated and no-one is prepared to make a run in support. Definitely a tactical or confidence issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star sail Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I don't completely agree with McCall's view that we shld only be judged on performances outhwith the Old Firm however I can understand the point that he is trying to make. It would be possible for Motherwell at this moment in time to finish on 88 points this season without picking up a single point against the OF. This is taking into account the 2 points lost so far against Killie. Obviously this wld require Well to win every single non OF game but it wld represent a season of unparalleled success and wld put pressure on one if not both OF sides. I am not suggesting that this is a possibility just making the point that the best season in Well's history could be achieved regardless of the results against the OF. The road to 88 pts starts with a victory against St Johnstone nxt weekend. Mon the Well!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underboyleheating Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 The road to 88 pts starts with a victory against St Johnstone nxt weekend. Mon the Well!!!! I’ve made this point before, if you can win all your games there is a very good chance you will be champions. Celtic and Rangers will drop points during the season (not many, and certainly not against us! ). Believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Stall Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I can't even bring myself to read the majority of this thread. Lets look at the bigger picture. 1 - McCall came in when the team was looking like going into free fall. He got us top 6 and a cup final. That is success in our book period! 2 - After 7 games into the new season we are sitting clear in third place, we have already played both the ugly sisters, and aside from Dundee United we have relative cannon fodder still to play in this quarter so fingers and baws crossed, wood touched we might get 25% of the season in at 3rd place. 3 - We are actually playing good football, certainly a step up from Brown. We look like we have goal threats all over the pitch and whilst we all know it, Radio Scotland acknowledged yesterday that in terms of starting 11, we are good enough to take on anyone outwith the old firm. 4 - We are never going to beat the old firm over the course of the season, so do I really care if we get pumped by them 9 times out of 10? Not really, what is far more important to us is our performance against the other 9 teams!. Any points gained against the old firm should be viewed as a bonus, and it just goes to show the mentality of the football fan that despite us doing so well on the pitch at the moment, some folk still find something to greet about. And as for the statistics presented in the first post, the reality is that there is not much to differentiate McCall from the rest of the managers analysed. A couple of good results this season and he will probably be top in those stats. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamsie119 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Yes, it's called "They are better teams than us". Every team in the SPL will lose most games against the Old Firm, and every now again there will be a shock. It's not been our turn, but it will come one day. So what if St Johnstone won at Celtic Park last week? I'd much rather our start to the season than theirs if St Johnstone hadnt won last week our game would of been a better one its the worst time to play the OF when they have just been beat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart McCall Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 The fact remains :- Rangers current squad cost £27.22 million Celtics current squad cost £25.1 million Motherwells current squad cost £0 We are over acheiving even to compete with the OF, and it is frankly unfair but when will it change? probably never 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Thanks Stuart. I didn't know that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber_nectar Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 Our current squad cost us £110,000. We had to pay a fee to sign Stevie Hammell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfc88 Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 I can't even bring myself to read the majority of this thread. Lets look at the bigger picture. 1 - McCall came in when the team was looking like going into free fall. He got us top 6 and a cup final. That is success in our book period! 2 - After 7 games into the new season we are sitting clear in third place, we have already played both the ugly sisters, and aside from Dundee United we have relative cannon fodder still to play in this quarter so fingers and baws crossed, wood touched we might get 25% of the season in at 3rd place. 3 - We are actually playing good football, certainly a step up from Brown. We look like we have goal threats all over the pitch and whilst we all know it, Radio Scotland acknowledged yesterday that in terms of starting 11, we are good enough to take on anyone outwith the old firm. 4 - We are never going to beat the old firm over the course of the season, so do I really care if we get pumped by them 9 times out of 10? Not really, what is far more important to us is our performance against the other 9 teams!. Any points gained against the old firm should be viewed as a bonus, and it just goes to show the mentality of the football fan that despite us doing so well on the pitch at the moment, some folk still find something to greet about. And as for the statistics presented in the first post, the reality is that there is not much to differentiate McCall from the rest of the managers analysed. A couple of good results this season and he will probably be top in those stats. I think you have completely missed the point here. McCall has done a fantastic job since he came in - I dont think any well fan will argue with that. End of. But I for one do care whether or not we get pumped by the old firm. As i said before, I dont always expect a result but I expect a game to watch and hopefully enjoy. If we get dogged every time we play them in the league and never expect anything, how are we ever meant to beat them in the cup? If the team arent going to turn up then why should we? Why bother buying a season ticket if we can immediately write off 3/4 games a year - thats not including the ones we cant make anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TvTotherwell Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 as much as i hate they we in which we get beat every time, if we continue to get the results against the other lot, i'll be a happy man. I was ragging yesterday during the game (mostly due to the slagging i took) however I'm not that annoyed about it anymore. We lost, we expected to loose so nuthing lost there, no expected points dropped. St Johnstone, Hibs and Aberdeen are next. thats a comfortable 9 points that will take us clear of 4th place no doubt, we're by miles the best of the rest. If we avoid the old firm, i think we can expect a Semi this season no problem. defo gona be out best season in a long time! ! ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TvTotherwell Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 But I for one do care whether or not we get pumped by the old firm. As i said before, I dont always expect a result but I expect a game to watch and hopefully enjoy. If we get dogged every time we play them in the league and never expect anything, how are we ever meant to beat them in the cup? If the team arent going to turn up then why should we? Why bother buying a season ticket if we can immediately write off 3/4 games a year - thats not including the ones we cant make anyway. I don't totally disagree with your point, but have you thought that mibby it looks like we don't turn up but infact we are just unable to play our game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweed Posted September 11, 2011 Report Share Posted September 11, 2011 So obviously taking out the game we won and the cup semi final as it was close you have to ask were there mitigating circumstances? In some of them yes. The 0-6 we had no defenders and half the team that were playing weren't fully fit. That happens so we forgive him that. The first 0-4 at Celtic was the week before the cup final and he rested a number of players. Whether the policy was right or not is debatable but it wasn't a first eleven and they were chasing the league. I'll forgive him that. The two home games with Rangers we played OK for a bit and then folded. Yesterday I didn't see apart from the highlights. Didn't look impressive at all in the highlights. So aye the record is shite but I suppose only McGhee has managed a win since Butcher other than McCall so certainly no worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelman1991 Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 as much as i hate they we in which we get beat every time, if we continue to get the results against the other lot, i'll be a happy man. I was ragging yesterday during the game (mostly due to the slagging i took) however I'm not that annoyed about it anymore. We lost, we expected to loose so nuthing lost there, no expected points dropped. St Johnstone, Hibs and Aberdeen are next. thats a comfortable 9 points that will take us clear of 4th place no doubt, we're by miles the best of the rest. If we avoid the old firm, i think we can expect a Semi this season no problem. defo gona be out best season in a long time! ! ! Now that will be a clever trick - 9 points from the next 3 games (the Hibs game is in the League Cup). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nethertonwellfan Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 Losing by such massive margins can't do anything for the confidence of the team aswell, I'd argue thats maybe the biggest problem. The OF are miles a head of the rest in terms of quality, and we should get beat soundly every time we play them. But if other teams can put up a fight and not get absolutely pumped every time we play them, then we should anaw It didn't harm our confidence after the Rangers game. We won our next 2 games scoring 8 goals in the process. I'll take that scenario again thank you very much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Stall Posted September 12, 2011 Report Share Posted September 12, 2011 We Motherwell fans really are a bunch of moaning bastards. Top6, cup final, clear in third place. Obviously none of that is quite good enough so lets moan about something else. If we were to ever win the league, we would probably be moaning about not being able to win the Champions League! Get a grip!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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