Mccall And The Old Firm

[Ya Bezzer!]

First of all I want to say that I think Stuart McCall has done an excellent job overall and the following post is not a criticism of his tenure in general but I do think there is a specific problem as regarding his results against the Old Firm. These results have just not been good enough and I think it is worthwhile raising the topic. McCall seems to be a manager that is keeps an eye on what the supporters are saying and I certainly hope that he pays attention to this problem.

 

Let's take a look at his record.

 

Stuart McCall

 

Rangers 0-6 Celtic 2-0

Rangers 0-5 Celtic 0-4

Rangers 1-2 Celtic 0-3

Rangers 0-3 Celtic 0-4

 

P8 W1 D0 L7 F3 A27 GD -23 PTS 3 (24) 12.5% of AVAILABLE POINTS GOALS 9 OF for 1 MOT

 

In eight matches against the old firm we have won one and lost seven. This for me is not really an acceptable overall record on it's own, you'd expect a draw or two in there, but what really stands out is the level of defeat. Of course I fully accept that once in a while the Old Firm will run riot against us and run up a score, that's football and it happens. But look at these results. 0-6, 0-5, 0-3, 0-4, 0-4 etc. In fact in McCall's charge the Old Firm have score NINE goals to every goal we have scored. That is really an alarming statistic when you consider that the Old Firm don't often win by huge margins any more and in fact both Ranger's and Celtic's biggest wins (in Celtic's case jointly with Dundee Utd) this season have come against us. As the currently third placed team in the league that seems to be an anomaly and not something that you'd expect.

 

Let's take a look at previous recent managers records.

 

Craig Brown

 

Rangers 1-4 Celtic 0-1

Rangers 3-3 Celtic 0-4

Rangers 1-1 Celtic 1-2

 

P6 W0 D2 L4 F6 A15 GD -9 PTS 2 (18) 11.1% of AVAILABLE POINTS GOALS 2.5 OF for MOT

 

 

Craig Brown didn't get a win, unlike McCall, but in 6 matches he got 2 positive results including a draw away at Ibrox. There were a couple of heavy defeats (as I've said this is something we have to expect) but also a couple of quite closely run games against Celtic. Compare the goal ratio with McCall's. Under Brown the Old Firm scored two and a half goals to every goal we scored, against nine goals to every goal we scored under McCall. A massive difference. All though McCall actually has a slightly percentage of points per game tally due to the win against Celtic, I'd suggest Brown actually had a better record against the Old Firm in term of performances.

 

Jim Gannon

 

Rangers 0-0 Celtic 0-0

Rangers 1-6 Celtic 2-3

 

P4 W0 D2 L2 F3 A9 GD -6 PTS 2 (12) 16.6% of AVAILABLE POINTS GOALS 3 OF for MOT

 

Only played four matches against the Old Firm and managed 2 draws in those matches, both 0-0 draws. If not for a missed penalty it would have been even better. Gannon had the best record against the Old Firm with 16.6% of the available points from those games and the goal ratio was slightly higher than average 3 goals to the Old Firm to every one we score. Gannon's record is likely skewed due to the limited number of matches he played against the Old Firm but overall he had the best record and we only had one drubbing out of four.

 

Mark McGhee

 

Rangers 1-2 Celtic 2-4

Rangers 0-0 Celtic 0-2

Rangers 1-3 Celtic 1-1

Rangers 1-1 Celtic 0-3

Rangers 1-3 Celtic 1-0

Rangers 1-1 Celtic 1-4

Rangers 0-1 Celtic 1-2

Rangers 1-2

 

P15 W1 D4 L10 F12 A29 GD -17 PTS 7 (45) 15.5% of AVAILABLE POINTS GOALS 2.416 OF for MOT

 

He was in charge of more Old Firm matches than any previous manager but in his time he managed to get five positive results, about one result in three, and had the second best percentage of points after Gannon, considering he had so many more matches than Gannon it's actually more impressive. Again the goal ratio was within the accepted range of between 2 - 3, at 2.416 and there were several close run matches 1-2, 0-1 etc.

 

 

So we can see that every manager of Motherwell in the same number of matches, or in some cases less, than Stuart McCall had at least two positive results against the Old Firm, against his one. Not great, but not a huge difference and only one potential match away from drawing level with. What really concerns me is the scale of the defeats.

 

NINE OF goals to every Motherwell goal! That is simple not precedented in recent history. The next worst, Gannon's record, is THREE goals to every Motherwell goal.

 

The scale of defeats we have been suffering under McCall simply do not stand up against our recent historical record and I don't think its good enough simply to shrug these results off and move on the next game. First of all these are potential points on the board and they should not be given up as easily as they have done under McCall. Secondly, Motherwell fans are paying to watch these matches and when fans are putting up the cash they deserve better than a virtual guarantee of a drubbing.

 

I really think McCall needs to start looking at these games a bit harder and he has to come up with a corrective philosophy so that this dismal run of results can be stemmed.

 

I like to think of myself as being a realistic supporter and I certainly don't expect Motherwell to start roasting the OF regularly but these games, most of the time should have been harder fought. Something has to change, whether its tactics, mentality going into the game, organisation, whatever it is, but results need to get better.

 

Over to you McCall.

[that hat]

Maybe as Motherwell routinely throw away these games, after all McCall only judges us by how well we play against the non-OF teams we should reintroduce the Gannon tactic of protecting the first team squad and just use the fringe players, that way the team have an excuse for being well and truly done over by the OF and the bookings and injuries are avoided.

[Stu]

First of all I want to say that I think Stuart McCall has done an excellent job overall and the following post is not a criticism of his tenure in general but I do think there is a specific problem as regarding his results against the Old Firm.

Yes, it's called "They are better teams than us".

 

Every team in the SPL will lose most games against the Old Firm, and every now again there will be a shock. It's not been our turn, but it will come one day.

 

So what if St Johnstone won at Celtic Park last week? I'd much rather our start to the season than theirs.

[Ya Bezzer!]

Yes, it's called "They are better teams than us".

 

Every team in the SPL will lose most games against the Old Firm, and every now again there will be a shock. It's not been our turn, but it will come one day.

 

So what if St Johnstone won at Celtic Park last week? I'd much rather our start to the season than theirs.

 

I realise that but the reason the post was so long was to show that we weren't losing these matches as heavily under any other recent manager.

 

Your second point is valid and I'd probably agree with you on it but I still don't like to see us capitulating in these matches, especially when its happening over and over again under the same guys watch.

[David]

I'm not bothered by the results in these games, as we don't expect to win, I'm more bothered by the way we go about playing against the Old Firm.

[SteelEdge]

Excellent post, Ya Bezzer. Well presented, interesting info and very good points made. Of course the Old Firm will usually beat us, but with the scale of these regular defeats, there's definitely something amiss.

 

To be perfectly honest, I'm surprised Motherwell fans still pay money to go to games at Ibrox and Celtic Park. I find it almost astounding. Might as well just burn your money.

[mfc]

i think mccall has done really well since hes came but some of the results against the old firm of late have been a shambles especially against rangers.i think we make it to easy for the old firm when we play them were far to open maybe its time we stuck everybody behind the ball and made it as hard for them as possible

 

 

[Jamwell]

If you do it as a comparison between money invested and goals lost to the OF, a 4-0 is probably about right.

 

If we had the money that Rangers and Celtic spend and receive then we should be fighting to win each OF match. And currently, we are just not as good because we don't have the investment.

 

If you were to offer me £40M to spend on an entire new team to fight the old firm, I'd say no. Simply because I like the fact that we are smaller than them and I'd rather be loyal to our players currently, then sack them to bring in better players, just for the sake of challenging the OF. If we win against them then great! But I honestly couldn't care if we lost 1-0 or 8-0.

[alanr]

Those stats do make interesting reading. I am a big fan of Stuart McCall and at the end of the day any points picked up against the Old Firm are always going to be seen as 'bonus' points as our season depends on results against every other team in the league.

 

However, the performances we have put in against the Old Firm for the last couple of years have been absolutely dreadful and damaging to our goal difference - which hasn't yet cost us a league position, but it can. I have never paid the entry fee to Parkhead or Ibrox based on principles of where I prefer my cash to go as well as stories I've heard from other fans, but I usually manage to get a stream online and I would have felt a bit robbed paying £26 to watch that today.

 

It seems that for the last couple of years we have been watching games involving Rangers and saying 'they are dreadful, worst Rangers team in x years... We could get right into them and get a win' which is promply followed by a rout at Fir Park. Celtic have been the better footballing team out of the two in the last few years imo and on their day they will beat us, however I don't believe they should do so with the ease of which we seem to be seeing at the moment.

 

It can't be easy to come up with a solution - most teams in the SPL have a pretty poor record against both of them (though we must have the worst in the last couple of years) and we're never going to go into games against them as favourites. Do we put so much in and risk injuries and sending offs? If not, and we accept almost certain defeat before the match, maybe sending a second string out can't be an awful lot more damaging than the 4,5,6-0's that we are currently seeing? This would allow an extra 6-8 weeks rest a season for our starting 11, since most agree that outside of the starting 11 there isn't a great deal of squad depth. This would also allow the fringe players a chance to prove themselves and gain experience.

 

I would much prefer to be sticking out the same starting 11 in every match knowing that the level of performance is going to be the same against the OF than it is against every other team in the league and have come to accept that sitting in and defending a 0-0 and hoping to hit on the counter might be a good option from now on on our travels to the ugly sisters. We can play good attacking football, but we can get away with glitches at the back and allowing players a wee bit of time on the ball against other teams in the league. Against the OF, playing the same way doesn't work. We have tried to play an open game against them for the last few games and have been pumped, plain and simple.

 

Hopefully the gaffer keeps up the good work and takes the constructive criticism on board - because we've had a great start to the season and if we can keep up the rate at which we are picking up points then we will make third place ours in no time. It's just a bit frustrating that there doesn't seem to be an answer to us shipping goals to rangers and celtic.

[Albi]

All I can say is

 

So what you have basically shown is that there is little to no difference in McCall's record against the old firm to the previous manager's records and you think performances are based on the number of goals in a game.

 

And you are wanting answers from Stuart McCall to explain this???

 

I like to think of myself as being a realistic supporter

:lol:

[TheLip69]

Yes, it's called "They are better teams than us".

 

Every team in the SPL will lose most games against the Old Firm, and every now again there will be a shock. It's not been our turn, but it will come one day.

 

So what if St Johnstone won at Celtic Park last week? I'd much rather our start to the season than theirs.

 

Surely when you are playing better teams you should be lifting your game against them. When we come up against the OF we seem to get worse. I dont mind losing to the OF as long as we give it our best shot, but too often we seem to go out onto the pitch already beaten.

McCalls comments after the Rangers game that we needed them to be shit us to be playing above ourselves and the officials to do us a favour, doesn't exactly fill me with confidence so what the hell does it do for the players.

[GazzyB]

Agree with Albi (never thought I'd say that!), bit of a long winded post for nothing IMO.

[mfc88]

Totally agree with ya bezzer on this. 9 goals to 1 is shocking by anyones standards.

 

If we win against them then great! But I honestly couldn't care if we lost 1-0 or 8-0.

 

Totally disagree with this too (other than the first bit of course). If I pay £26 to get in to parkhead/ ibrox then of course I dont expect a result every time but I expect to see a battle. If we lose 1-0 fighting then fine, but to get pumped and then have to put up with the neddy, scummy pr1cks the other side of the barrier is NOT how I want to spend my weekends!

[DEWELL]

Great post from TheLip69. Sums it all up for me. Instead of raising our game we roll over and play dead. PISH!! I feel sorry for the Well fans who went there today to watch that.

[Dr.Pangloss]

[Busta Nut]

every one's record is very similar

[Lobey_Dosser]

When McCall arrived at Fir Park, I had high hopes that he would prove to be a Tommy McLean type character and inspire us to raise our game against the Old Firm and not be scared to go toe to toe with them.

 

Clearly that hasn't materialised and McCall has went the other way. He is content to go with the stifling Motherwell mindset of measuring success against a Top 6 finish and writing off games against the Old Firm from the outset. In years gone by I could deal with getting pumped 4-0, 5-0 by Laudrup, Larsson, Gascoigne, Moravcik and co but that lack of spirit and belief in recent years against mediocre Old Firm teams has been disgusting.

 

Some blame needs to lie with the players as well. While experienced guys like Craigan, Lasley and Hammell are sound professionals and have been excellent servants to the club they clearly lack the mentality and belief to compete with the Old Firm. So where does the leadership come from?

[Wellfan1984]

every one's record is very similar

 

I don't think the actual record is the problem, as in the Win, Lose, Draw column more the fact we're not even putting up a fight anymore. Every year we've usually took one hammering from one side of the Old Firm or both, but we also was able to look back at a game and think "if only this happened, or that went in etc." We can't even do that now.

 

Look at United today, played the game with 10 men for an hour - lost 1-0. What we've done in the past against Rangers, would have seen double figures probably.

 

Saying that, I don't care if we lose all 8 games against the Old Firm, if we win (with some draws) 95% of the rest of our games!

[gordy]

First of all I want to say that I think Stuart McCall has done an excellent job overall and the following post is not a criticism of his tenure in general but I do think there is a specific problem as regarding his results against the Old Firm. These results have just not been good enough and I think it is worthwhile raising the topic. McCall seems to be a manager that is keeps an eye on what the supporters are saying and I certainly hope that he pays attention to this problem.

 

Let's take a look at his record.

 

Stuart McCall

 

Rangers 0-6 Celtic 2-0

Rangers 0-5 Celtic 0-4

Rangers 1-2 Celtic 0-3

Rangers 0-3 Celtic 0-4

 

P8 W1 D0 L7 F3 A27 GD -23 PTS 3 (24) 12.5% of AVAILABLE POINTS GOALS 9 OF for 1 MOT

 

In eight matches against the old firm we have won one and lost seven. This for me is not really an acceptable overall record on it's own, you'd expect a draw or two in there, but what really stands out is the level of defeat. Of course I fully accept that once in a while the Old Firm will run riot against us and run up a score, that's football and it happens. But look at these results. 0-6, 0-5, 0-3, 0-4, 0-4 etc. In fact in McCall's charge the Old Firm have score NINE goals to every goal we have scored. That is really an alarming statistic when you consider that the Old Firm don't often win by huge margins any more and in fact both Ranger's and Celtic's biggest wins (in Celtic's case jointly with Dundee Utd) this season have come against us. As the currently third placed team in the league that seems to be an anomaly and not something that you'd expect.

 

Let's take a look at previous recent managers records.

 

Craig Brown

 

Rangers 1-4 Celtic 0-1

Rangers 3-3 Celtic 0-4

Rangers 1-1 Celtic 1-2

 

P6 W0 D2 L4 F6 A15 GD -9 PTS 2 (18) 11.1% of AVAILABLE POINTS GOALS 2.5 OF for MOT

 

 

Craig Brown didn't get a win, unlike McCall, but in 6 matches he got 2 positive results including a draw away at Ibrox. There were a couple of heavy defeats (as I've said this is something we have to expect) but also a couple of quite closely run games against Celtic. Compare the goal ratio with McCall's. Under Brown the Old Firm scored two and a half goals to every goal we scored, against nine goals to every goal we scored under McCall. A massive difference. All though McCall actually has a slightly percentage of points per game tally due to the win against Celtic, I'd suggest Brown actually had a better record against the Old Firm in term of performances.

 

Jim Gannon

 

Rangers 0-0 Celtic 0-0

Rangers 1-6 Celtic 2-3

 

P4 W0 D2 L2 F3 A9 GD -6 PTS 2 (12) 16.6% of AVAILABLE POINTS GOALS 3 OF for MOT

 

Only played four matches against the Old Firm and managed 2 draws in those matches, both 0-0 draws. If not for a missed penalty it would have been even better. Gannon had the best record against the Old Firm with 16.6% of the available points from those games and the goal ratio was slightly higher than average 3 goals to the Old Firm to every one we score. Gannon's record is likely skewed due to the limited number of matches he played against the Old Firm but overall he had the best record and we only had one drubbing out of four.

 

Mark McGhee

 

Rangers 1-2 Celtic 2-4

Rangers 0-0 Celtic 0-2

Rangers 1-3 Celtic 1-1

Rangers 1-1 Celtic 0-3

Rangers 1-3 Celtic 1-0

Rangers 1-1 Celtic 1-4

Rangers 0-1 Celtic 1-2

Rangers 1-2

 

P15 W1 D4 L10 F12 A29 GD -17 PTS 7 (45) 15.5% of AVAILABLE POINTS GOALS 2.416 OF for MOT

 

He was in charge of more Old Firm matches than any previous manager but in his time he managed to get five positive results, about one result in three, and had the second best percentage of points after Gannon, considering he had so many more matches than Gannon it's actually more impressive. Again the goal ratio was within the accepted range of between 2 - 3, at 2.416 and there were several close run matches 1-2, 0-1 etc.

 

 

So we can see that every manager of Motherwell in the same number of matches, or in some cases less, than Stuart McCall had at least two positive results against the Old Firm, against his one. Not great, but not a huge difference and only one potential match away from drawing level with. What really concerns me is the scale of the defeats.

 

NINE OF goals to every Motherwell goal! That is simple not precedented in recent history. The next worst, Gannon's record, is THREE goals to every Motherwell goal.

 

The scale of defeats we have been suffering under McCall simply do not stand up against our recent historical record and I don't think its good enough simply to shrug these results off and move on the next game. First of all these are potential points on the board and they should not be given up as easily as they have done under McCall. Secondly, Motherwell fans are paying to watch these matches and when fans are putting up the cash they deserve better than a virtual guarantee of a drubbing.

 

I really think McCall needs to start looking at these games a bit harder and he has to come up with a corrective philosophy so that this dismal run of results can be stemmed.

 

I like to think of myself as being a realistic supporter and I certainly don't expect Motherwell to start roasting the OF regularly but these games, most of the time should have been harder fought. Something has to change, whether its tactics, mentality going into the game, organisation, whatever it is, but results need to get better.

 

Over to you McCall.

 

 

 

This, to me. is rhe problem.

 

McCall, who I think is a really good manager, shites his pants against the ugly sisters, WHY??????

 

Go for it against them, don't change your system, when you do, we still get pumped. so why show any respect for fucks sake.

 

You got manager of the month for winning games, why change tactics against the scum?

 

When you all talk about how good the bigots are, they are only as good as the team that plays against them.

 

I was not there today and will not attend another game against the evil twosome unless the attitude from our leader improves, 3 points from them is the same as 3 points from Inverness.

 

I want a season ticket reduction for old firm games if that is his thinking, I will not be there against them with his defeatist attitude.

[mfcdez]

Losing heavily to the OF is a habit we seem to have too easily fallen into over the last couple of years , with the exception of the 2-0 win over Celtic last season . As soon as the first goal is conceded in each game you immediately get the sense that the floodgates have opened , and our boys seem to resign themselves to defeat .

Although they obviously have better players than us , I honestly feel that a negative mentality is as much to do with the manner of the defeats as any gulf in class .

Even with 11 players at the top of their game we would need luck on our side to get anything from these matches , but a more positive and resilient frame of mind would certainly go a long way towards at least coming out of them with our pride and morale intact .

No matter what system McCall opts for , there has got to be more spine in the team and a will to at least compete over 90 minutes , instead of the usual capitulation .

[Stu]

Surely when you are playing better teams you should be lifting your game against them.

Well, I would argue it shouldn't be possible to lift your game against the better teams because you should give your all against every team you play...

 

If I was satisfied with watching my team regularly raising their game against one of the Old Firm and then pissing about against the 'diddy' teams, I'd be buying a season ticket for Pittodrie...

[ML1]

you think performances are based on the number of goals in a game.

 

 

 

Aye that'll never catch on will it ?

 

What you awarding points on the basis of ? How shiny the players boots are ?

[Dr.Pangloss]

Aye that'll never catch on will it ?

 

What you awarding points on the basis of ? How shiny the players boots are ?

 

Performance maybe?

 

Sorry, engaged my brain for a second. Pretty sure it's in the rules here not to do so.

[nethertonwellfan]

Surely when you are playing better teams you should be lifting your game against them. When we come up against the OF we seem to get worse. I dont mind losing to the OF as long as we give it our best shot, but too often we seem to go out onto the pitch already beaten.

McCalls comments after the Rangers game that we needed them to be shit us to be playing above ourselves and the officials to do us a favour, doesn't exactly fill me with confidence so what the hell does it do for the players.

That is the way it used to be and see to be honest it frustrated the life out of me. We could go and beat the old firm and then get pumped by someone like St Mirren.

 

The year we finished bottom under Terry Butcher we beat everyone in the top 6 and couldn't beat anyone in the bottom half. I'd rather it this way taking 0 out of the old firm and taking 13 points in every 15 against the rest.

 

Having said that the manner of the defeats is somewhat frustrating to say the least.

 

 

[fatcalf]

That is the way it used to be and see to be honest it frustrated the life out of me. We could go and beat the old firm and then get pumped by someone like St Mirren.

 

The year we finished bottom under Terry Butcher we beat everyone in the top 6 and couldn't beat anyone in the bottom half. I'd rather it this way taking 0 out of the old firm and taking 13 points in every 15 against the rest.

 

Having said that the manner of the defeats is somewhat frustrating to say the least.

 

 

 

 

Frustrating aye but in the bigger picture we shouldn't be anywhere near them given the gulf in finances so it's not that big a deal. As you say better this way than t'other.