David Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Having spoken to the original poster of the thread I've split the Aberdeen crowd trouble talk into a seperate thread. Let's keep this thread for discussing the campaign. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rickoza Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I'd agree rules are in place for a reason. Not much point in them though when the authorities only implement them when it suits...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthebasement Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 the problem old firm derby I take it you mean the one where players mangers and backroom staff were acting like children and throwing handbags about? By using this point you are yourself using media and old firm cliche's as as I remember there was no widespread trouble in the stands out of the ordinary? Taking out the sectarian problems that may or may not have occurred this bill is a direct action against fans due to the behaviour of players and managers? No not really, I was making a point about the motivation behind the legislation being discussed. I think the bill is intended to oppose sectarianism in football, something I believe Well fans should support. I disagree that the campaign 'isn't up for debate', or that I am 'on this thread to moan about it'. I respect the campaign but have a different opinion on the reasoning behind the governments proposals and I am commenting on that from a Well fan perspective. I am also opposed to heavy handed stewarding, lazy policing and all-seater stadia - but this bill isn't about any of those things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 The bill may be intended to combat sectarianism but it clearly won't. There are already laws in place to combat sectarianism but the police refuse to implement them as things stand, preferring to concentrate on easy targets like our small support. This bill will make that situation worse by giving them more powers to abuse in similar fashion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muffdiver91 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 great effort lads Im well behind this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_M_F_C Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 No not really, I was making a point about the motivation behind the legislation being discussed. I think the bill is intended to oppose sectarianism in football, something I believe Well fans should support. I disagree that the campaign 'isn't up for debate', or that I am 'on this thread to moan about it'. I respect the campaign but have a different opinion on the reasoning behind the governments proposals and I am commenting on that from a Well fan perspective. I am also opposed to heavy handed stewarding, lazy policing and all-seater stadia - but this bill isn't about any of those things. the offensive behavior at football and threatening communications bill. No mention of sectarianism there. It's not something 'well fans should support in anyway. The bill will encourage power hungry police "THIS OFFENDS ME YOU WILL BE ARRESTED" type stuff is all this will encourage. If you haven't already please read the bill(link posted on page 2) as it will open you eyes as to why we cannot let this bill be passed as law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 [the problems at Aberdeen on saturday were because of stewards trying to use teh existing laws that everyone now seems to think are all we need for football? altho many can exagerate how the law can be ridiculous, if it was ever to be applied in the ways pointed out like every law taken to the extreme, but it could be something that may be used to get some of the cr@p out of it? we have had the existing laws for a while now....dont seem to have stopped the bigot bros up till now have they? I totally agree that a campaign to help get rid of the heavy handed stewards that we have seen for manay years now is needed, I find it strange that it is only now that people want to start it as a way to score points against our govt, who at least are trying to do something about the problems associated with the bigot bros as opposed to teh last lot who sat on their bungs and did nowt, and to stop any new law, when it is the existing failed ones that are letting stewards run rough shod over any fan that they feel big and clever enough to take on ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 It's maybe be an idea that the campaign was more to rethink the bill so that it addresses the problems more directly, rather than just saying 'kill the bill'-implying just let the bigots be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 I totally agree that a campaign to help get rid of the heavy handed stewards that we have seen for manay years now is needed, I find it strange that it is only now that people want to start it as a way to score points against our govt, who at least are trying to do something about the problems associated with the bigot bros as opposed to teh last lot who sat on their bungs and did nowt, and to stop any new law, when it is the existing failed ones that are letting stewards run rough shod over any fan that they feel big and clever enough to take on ???? You think this campaign, and others like it, are point scoring exercises against the SNP? What would be the basis for such actions? Are we all Labour Party members? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 It's maybe be an idea that the campaign was more to rethink the bill so that it addresses the problems more directly, rather than just saying 'kill the bill'-implying just let the bigots be. Kill the Bill implies something entirely different to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthebasement Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 the offensive behavior at football and threatening communications bill. No mention of sectarianism there. It's not something 'well fans should support in anyway. The bill will encourage power hungry police "THIS OFFENDS ME YOU WILL BE ARRESTED" type stuff is all this will encourage. If you haven't already please read the bill(link posted on page 2) as it will open you eyes as to why we cannot let this bill be passed as law. Sorry John, but are you actually taking the piss? It doesn't say sectarianism in the title?? This is the definition of 'offensive behaviour' at section 1 of the bill: (2) The behaviour is— (a) expressing hatred of, or stirring up hatred against, a group of persons based on their membership (or presumed membership) of— (i) a religious group, (ii) a social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation, I know there are people all over the media and internet saying that the bill targets football and has nothing to do with sectarianism. Guess which institutions with a hell of a lot to lose those guys support? Read the definition of offensive behaviour above - familiar? Is this something Well fans should fight to protect? I've had a go at expressing an alternative view there's no point in starting up individual arguments. Ultimately, if your view is 'The Police are really bad guys, so we shouldn't have any new laws, they'll be even more bad' - there's nothing anyone is going to write on here that'll make any difference. But for Christ sake be honest about where your support lies - this bill is self evidently designed to give the courts (not the police, they can arrest anyone for breach of the peace anyway) a higher level of sentencing against sectarian bigots. Next time the scum turn up at FP with their usual bile about Oirish history or the Empire, remember that at the only time the issue got so high profile that a Scottish Government had the balls to do away with them, you joined a campaign to oppose it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Sorry John, but are you actually taking the piss? It doesn't say sectarianism in the title?? This is the definition of 'offensive behaviour' at section 1 of the bill: (2) The behaviour is— (a) expressing hatred of, or stirring up hatred against, a group of persons based on their membership (or presumed membership) of— (i) a religious group, (ii) a social or cultural group with a perceived religious affiliation, I know there are people all over the media and internet saying that the bill targets football and has nothing to do with sectarianism. Guess which institutions with a hell of a lot to lose those guys support? Read the definition of offensive behaviour above - familiar? Is this something Well fans should fight to protect? I've had a go at expressing an alternative view there's no point in starting up individual arguments. Ultimately, if your view is 'The Police are really bad guys, so we shouldn't have any new laws, they'll be even more bad' - there's nothing anyone is going to write on here that'll make any difference. But for Christ sake be honest about where your support lies - this bill is self evidently designed to give the courts (not the police, they can arrest anyone for breach of the peace anyway) a higher level of sentencing against sectarian bigots. Next time the scum turn up at FP with their usual bile about Oirish history or the Empire, remember that at the only time the issue got so high profile that a Scottish Government had the balls to do away with them, you joined a campaign to oppose it. You sersiouly believe that? Jeez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthebasement Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 You sersiouly believe that? Jeez Oh, great point mate! I can't resist it - why do you think this bill is introduced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 On properly looking at the bill, it is designed to target sectarianism, but it also encompasses a lot of other things. For example, someone singing the nasty 'Mark McGhee' song could well be prosecuted under this, and in a court, even in public, I'm sure it would be judged to be as pretty offensive, while on the terraces, it can be funny. Similar with shouting about a player's maw being a dog, certain fans being inbred mongos and such - these seem to fall well within the 'criminal' bracket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky' Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 My main gripe is the fact if you said something that could be deemed offensive at a game you could end up with a quite possible jail sentence. Say the same thing and the street and most people wouldn't bat an eyelid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Pangloss Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 My main gripe is the fact if you said something that could be deemed offensive at a game you could end up with a quite possible jail sentence. Say the same thing and the street and most people wouldn't bat an eyelid. I'm pretty sure if you stood there chanting at a bloke that he was a pedophile etc, eyelids would be bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 There's already sufficient laws in place to combat any sectarian problem our game has. We don't need new laws, we need the authorities to grow balls and use the powers they have already to deal with sectarianism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthebasement Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 My main gripe is the fact if you said something that could be deemed offensive at a game you could end up with a quite possible jail sentence. Say the same thing and the street and most people wouldn't bat an eyelid. I think this is a fair concern. In theory, it could be used that way, but In theory all criminal legislation is capable of being broadly applied and you could theoretically be put away for any number of things. Ask yourself why either the government or the judges would suddenly want to put people away, at massive expense, for behaviour which no one presently gives a fuk about bar a few stewards. Governments just want votes to retain power. The Ranger/Celtic thing got really embarrassing last year and ended up all over the UK press - documentaries, front page stories and so forth. The SNP hate that sort of publicity its bad for business, and they like votes. So they put out an electorate pleasing piece of legislation aimed at sectarianism in football. Once its passed, the government will expect it to be used against its intended target, or senior police will be taken to task. This bill is one part of a social/political backlash against sectarianism - UEFA suddenly fining Ranger and Celtic for songs is another, Hugh Dallas getting fired is another, Rangers tax bill is another.... just pick up a paper. They've been getting away with it for years, leave them to stew in their own juices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well Well Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 The other point most people are missing here also is that the police have been trying to get out of policing football for quite a while now and they will continue to dwindle in numbers especially in the ground as SIA approved stewards become commonplace. The police like everybody else are looking at ways to cut their bills and policing at football games has come under scrutiny. The police have basically handed over almost all in house stuff back to the clubs. Most first and second division games have a token police presence and low risk premier games will follow. So stop being paranoid thinking big brother is following Motherwell fans around checking on their behaviour as the funding and resources just aren't available anymore to the police to enforce any law brought in, if anything police resources will continue to dwindle. The Police are struggling with current demand re new laws, legislation and special initiatives being launched on a weekly basis by MPs wanting their names in the headlines without a whole host of new laws to enforce as seems to be the norm with the Scottish Parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Oh, great point mate! I can't resist it - why do you think this bill is introduced? That would be starting up an individual argument which you've said you don't want so I'll leave it there. In truth can't be arsed, you believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, neither of us is going to change views so debating the issue is pointless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Governments just want votes to retain power. The Ranger/Celtic thing got really embarrassing last year and ended up all over the UK press - documentaries, front page stories and so forth. The SNP hate that sort of publicity its bad for business, and they like votes. So they put out an electorate pleasing piece of legislation aimed at sectarianism in football. Once its passed, the government will expect it to be used against its intended target, or senior police will be taken to task. taken to task for actually applying a law? that's a good one. you are stickin up for the bill while actually saying we don't need it. following your logic why don't we just give the police the right to arrest and imprison anyone at whim then trust their judgement to apply it correctly? do you actually believe it is fair that two people travelling on a bus shout the same 'offensive' sloan and one gets dealt with more harshly than the other because his offence is aggravated by travelling to the football? there is no justice in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 taken to task for actually applying a law? that's a good one. you are stickin up for the bill while actually saying we don't need it. following your logic why don't we just give the police the right to arrest and imprison anyone at whim then trust their judgement to apply it correctly? do you actually believe it is fair that two people travelling on a bus shout the same 'offensive' sloan and one gets dealt with more harshly than the other because his offence is aggravated by travelling to the football? there is no justice in that. This is what he said. "Once its passed, the government will expect it to be used against its intended target, or senior police will be taken to task" I take that to mean taken to task for not applying the law properly. Do you actually believe that would ever conceivably happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inthebasement Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 That would be starting up an individual argument which you've said you don't want so I'll leave it there. In truth can't be arsed, you believe what you want, I'll believe what I want, neither of us is going to change views so debating the issue is pointless You sersiouly believe that? Jeez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
that hat Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Does seem crazy that the laws that are supposed to regulate threatening behaviour are somehow left outside football grounds according to our corporate political poodles. If it's true that fans chanting offensive remarks would be arrested if they were out on the street why do the existing laws stop being applied inside gounds? Or is it just another case of corporate poodle talking shite shock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well Well Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 The fact that our fans need to shout offensive slogans is the point really...WHY..?? Thats what gets me...I have shouted the refs an arse, their height, weight etc and other minor crap but found absolutely no need to scream abuse about someone's colour, creed, sexual orientation because some on here think thats fair game at a football game. If anyone as some have suggested called me that in the street and I wouldn't bat an eyelid are living on another planet. In no way am I a lefty, or human rights activist or politically correct in any way but I still don't see the need to shout sectarian or any other type of abuse. I for one know that working at a game that common sense prevails and the majority of police are the same (yes there are a minority like every profession who abuse their powers). I have also seen OUR fans giving some terrible abuse to the families of our own players as they are the target of the boo boys. So don't get on your high horses as a lot of our fans are pretty much guilty of a lot of the bile this law is targetted at. I don't personally support it without much more debate especially from fans but I will support anything that gets rid of some of the sick chants at ours and other grounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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