Brazilian Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Y Dave are you answering on behalf of the soceity and the specific type of share they are selling, or offering info' on your own shareholding? Its important , the society answer clearly for this financial transaction. nothing is clear on the FAQ's regarding what type of shares these are, and what rights comes with them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 I should make it clear that I'm answering only as an individual fan and shareholder, and in no way on behalf of the Society. The information is based solely on my personal experience. The answers I've given would apply to any shareholder.Yes, Iain, the Society needs to clarify matters officially. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welldaft Mk1 Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 No wind up, genuine questions. If they're completely illiquid and will never make anyone a penny then that's fine, just so everyone knows that going in. They are genuine questions in my opinion. I accept they will unlikely ever pay a dividend or be quoted like Celtic but....... There are so many questions to be answered. A lot of people like the idea of holding shares and would be prepared to pay £50 for the novelty. But if for the sake of argument someone wanted to buy a significant amount. I would want to know how much this £500k represents of the club share capital ? Is it 10% or 20%. So if someone wanted to buy £25k worth does that mean they own 1% of Motherwell Football Club ? The Well Society may last the test of time, but what if someone pitches up in the future and wants to buy the club from the Well Society and individual shareholders. Would they get 1% (citing my example above) of the monies paid. That is how investments work - even if this is principally an emotional investment more than anything else. Too many questions remain unanswered for would be serious investors. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 Basically this ^^^ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real dosser Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 I don't think any "serious" investors as you call them are going to be interested in buying shares in MFC. It is a way of raising cash and of giving a Well fan the chance to feel he/she is an active part of the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dossertillidie Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 You at the wind up? Dont think that the idea behind them is to ever pay divs nor do I believe they will be on any AIMs market. I think it's a fair question Why buy shares? What benefits are there to simply increasing your society fees? TBH where I think the society have went wrong since it's inception is making clear benefits to investing. I don't think in the current climate you can just go with invest because it's your club mentality People want to feel and receive a benefit I invested £3k initially in the society when it started then got moved to regular monthly payments when the structure changed and Iv received absolutely nothing for any of those investments barely even acknowledgement that I can think of I'm fortunate enough that if I wanted to I could invest in shares of a significant level but what is there to differentiate the benefits to what I already have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dossertillidie Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 I don't think any "serious" investors as you call them are going to be interested in buying shares in MFC. It is a way of raising cash and of giving a Well fan the chance to feel he/she is an active part of the club. Is that not how we are meant to feel as part of the society? Seems to me like it's the same as the initial proposal just dressed up differently (and not very well) as a share issue which actually doesn't operate as a share issue of a company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 I bought a brick, I suppose it is tangible and I can see it when I go to games but it brings me no benefit, but I was happy to do it, I would be just as happy to have a share certificate, it would go in a drawer and be of as much benefit as a brick, but I would be contributing. Some people don't like the Well Society but they may be happy directly owning a share. Some people contributed their £300 and feel that is enough, a share is something different and may inspire them to part with more money. It is just another vehicle to bring money in that may appeal to a subset of the fan base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yabba's Turd Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 A share certification is all I need for my £50, throw it in a frame and stick it on the wall with all the other framed 'well stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welldaft Mk1 Posted October 30, 2017 Report Share Posted October 30, 2017 I bought a brick, I suppose it is tangible and I can see it when I go to games but it brings me no benefit, but I was happy to do it, I would be just as happy to have a share certificate, it would go in a drawer and be of as much benefit as a brick, but I would be contributing. Some people don't like the Well Society but they may be happy directly owning a share. Some people contributed their £300 and feel that is enough, a share is something different and may inspire them to part with more money. It is just another vehicle to bring money in that may appeal to a subset of the fan base. That is fair comment if they are targeting people who are not already contributors past and present to the Well Society. But I am both and I would be interested in buying shares, but even for me there comes a point where I am looking for something more tangible than a share certificate which I believe I already have from the past. If they are serious about raising £500k then as previously stated they do need to clarify a few significant points before people will stump up more than say a token £50 or a £100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 There are so many questions to be answered. A lot of people like the idea of holding shares and would be prepared to pay £50 for the novelty. But if for the sake of argument someone wanted to buy a significant amount. I would want to know how much this £500k represents of the club share capital ? Is it 10% or 20%. So if someone wanted to buy £25k worth does that mean they own 1% of Motherwell Football Club ? The Well Society may last the test of time, but what if someone pitches up in the future and wants to buy the club from the Well Society and individual shareholders. Would they get 1% (citing my example above) of the monies paid. That is how investments work - even if this is principally an emotional investment more than anything else. Too many questions remain unanswered for would be serious investors. I asked some of these questions back in late September Iain (you can check back if you're so inclined). A £500K share sale represents about 17.4% of the club's issued shares. It would take the Society's holding down from 74% to 57%. Assuming the maximum number of shares were sold, a 57% holding is a little too low for my liking, but I know there are different views about this. £25k worth of shares would represent less than 1% of the issued shares. There are probably around a handful of parties already with this level of holding. I don't know about very large investors appearing over the horizon in years to come but I hope it doesn't happen. We don't want to go down the route Dundee has done. In terms of Society benefits, there are a range of views, all perfectly valid. For my part, benefits don't really interest me, although I wouldn't say I'd never take advantage of them. There are others who asked the question "Whats in it for me?", and many in between these two opposites. For the most part though, many ordinary fans will just want to own a few shares to have their own personal stake in the club and to be able attend the AGM. Again this is my own personal view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Hi folks, As much as I'm in the loop with the whole Share Sale initiative, I do think it's a unique subject matter with some on the Society Board better placed than myself to directly answer a number of these questions, rather than me attempting to stumble through posts during breaks at work. I've sent a link to the last couple of pages of this thread around the rest of the Society Board and asked that the points raised are tackled ASAP. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuwell Posted October 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Ive always been a great supporter of the society and what i believe it stands for - fan owenership of the club through subscription or one off payments, giving everyone an equal vote no matter how large or small their donations. My problem with this share sale - and Im no expert so could be wrong - is that we are diluting the amount of control that the society has from 74% to 57%. This is still a majority but this opens a scenario where further down the line where if someone buys 30% of the shares, then they could forcefully buy the outstanding 70% of shares. Again Im no expert but I believe this is the case in company law and there may well be an exception for situations like this and if so Id like to know. Also, if there is a possible future conflict between the society & shareholders, Id like to see some sort of a clause where in such a case, shareholders who are also society members would be prohibited from voting in any society vote on the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Aye, 57% seems low to me. Not right now, but gives me the fear that 10 or 20 years from now - maybe during a property boom, for example - somebody can manipulate their way to getting control of the club and start building a supermarket on Fir Park. I'm also still unclear how voting works i.e if I suddenly find myself with shares and Well Society membership, do I get 2 votes on certain matters? If so, which matters? I like the idea of one member, on vote we have in the Society and wouldn't like to see that disappear. In general I'm in favour of selling some shares, but with all the good work the Society has done this season, and our success on the park so far, I don't want to see us extend ourselves too far. Once the shares are sold, we have no control over what happens to them. If the percentages above are correct, I'd be more comfortable with about half that number being sold, and with no voting rights. It all seems a bit rushed for something that has a potentially significant impact on the club's ownership and future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dossertillidie Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Let's say for example the society funds dry up or in 3yrs time I want to make a significant investment in youth development but want protection of my investment in ownership of the company. Will all shareholders be paid out if I decide to invest for example £3m? I think there is a significant difference to highlight here whether fans are being asked to invest in shares or donate towards them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Electric Blues Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 I guess it's "rushed" to try and leverage Les's double-your-money offer, which is understandable. I also suspect that the chances of selling the full tranche are slim to none, and there are checks and balances in place to prevent large purchases in that event anyway. From my perspective, I can throw £50 in a bucket at the next collection, and it's gone forever (albeit to a good home!) Or I can buy some shares, hang the certificate on the wall, and in theory recoup the £50 at some distant point in the future, by which time it might just be worth enough to pay for a Hampden pie. Of these two options I'd prefer the latter, although if there is no real likelihood of growth or dividends my investment is likely to be closer to £50 than £5000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 My problem with this share sale - and Im no expert so could be wrong - is that we are diluting the amount of control that the society has from 74% to 57%. This is still a majority but this opens a scenario where further down the line where if someone buys 30% of the shares, then they could forcefully buy the outstanding 70% of shares. Again Im no expert but I believe this is the case in company law and there may well be an exception for situations like this and if so Id like to know. You can't demand to buy the club with 30 percent. It's also likely to be very difficult to figure out who actually owns all the shares. I don't think that the controlling interest going from 70 to 57 changes anything. People need to be realistic. You are getting a certificate and a letter once a year, it's not the Dow Jones. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 You don't need to demand anything. You just need to keep chipping away at the shareholdings, make overvalued offers here and there. We're not talking about tomorrow, here, but 30 years from now, who the hell knows what will be going on with the club or the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Aye, 57% seems low to me. Not right now, but gives me the fear that 10 or 20 years from now - maybe during a property boom, for example - somebody can manipulate their way to getting control of the club and start building a supermarket on Fir Park. I'm also still unclear how voting works i.e if I suddenly find myself with shares and Well Society membership, do I get 2 votes on certain matters? If so, which matters? I like the idea of one member, on vote we have in the Society and wouldn't like to see that disappear. In general I'm in favour of selling some shares, but with all the good work the Society has done this season, and our success on the park so far, I don't want to see us extend ourselves too far. Once the shares are sold, we have no control over what happens to them. If the percentages above are correct, I'd be more comfortable with about half that number being sold, and with no voting rights. My view exactly Weeyin and thats why I was one of the few to vote against the proposal. I have no problem in principle but think that 25,000 shares would have been a better limit. However, if the club has more shareholders then I suppose thats a good thing in principle as it broadens the base. If you are both a club shareholder and a Society member then you can only seek to influence the Society's voting decision but as a club shareholder you can vote however you like in your own right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 You don't need to demand anything. You just need to keep chipping away at the shareholdings, make overvalued offers here and there. We're not talking about tomorrow, here, but 30 years from now, who the hell knows what will be going on with the club or the market. Anything could happen in the next 30 years but if 57% no longer represents a majority it will be a major shock.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazilian Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 You can't demand to buy the club with 30 percent. It's also likely to be very difficult to figure out who actually owns all the shares. I don't think that the controlling interest going from 70 to 57 changes anything. People need to be realistic. You are getting a certificate and a letter once a year, it's not the Dow Jones. People need to be realistic , its a multimillion pound businesss that quite possibly could be desirable for any number of reasons primarlily its assests as speculated ( based on historical trends) , that is offering half a million pounds worth of shares in a public sale. not your mates printing of some wall art it wouldnt take a forensic investigators to match shareholding to individuals, what's your name, I'll tell you how many shares you hold, its a PLC its all online & public, albeit with a time lag. Fair enough to the folk who only want a certificate for the wall for £50, don't concern yourself, dont even bother to ask if its an ordinary or deferred share you are throwing a tenner at, if you don't care about that stuff, let the representatives get away with poorly worded FAQ's and throw away comments whilst speculating with your club assets. PS you might want to ask if you will get a certificate, as I cant see anywhere that says you will and for £50 income and share registration costs any acknowledgement is eating into the goal, but hey an easy and obvious question for the FAQ...... as of 16 January 2017 there were 2088 Deferred shares and 298712 Ordinary shares so 300,800 total number of shares in Motherwell Football and Athletic Club Limited (The) SC005702 on that date , The Well Society owned 17,115 and 204,700 from a quick scan (221,815) approx 73.74% they are offering up to £500k of shares if taken up with the share discounts could easily reduce shareholding to almost 53-57%, what are the plans for the cash raised? I notice they have rolled out the 'reserves for the club' line, after the whitewash of society funds being transferred to the club, I consider that slightly ironic and would ask for some re-assurances that, as they are effectively selling of the family silver in a one off deal, the funds are truly ring-fenced and we get back to core principles of the Society funds being loaned to the club, which is required to operate within its means of commerical income, with a full and binding expectation that the loans are repaid, to ensure the society does have reserves to support the club well into the future. and all of this just down to an almost ignorant FAQ section , which considering the sale is public might even be reported if someone so feels the need. I'm all for the sale of some shares, for me they would need to be oridnary with voting rights, otherwise the funds are as well straight into society and keep what are the societies only assets, in tact for future security. what really pissed me off, was making the sale public, and giving away free memberships, of the society, to any non member buying shares in the club, totally undermines the very essence of every current member buying into the 'society' to get that one member one vote. the only reply from the society is 'but they dont get rewards' (with the free membership) that just pissed me off even more, aye magic they dont get a pin badge or entry into an away ticket draw or place on a tour that there is no public evidence have ever happened, but being a member they get a vote on all society matters and can nominate for the society board, Farcical! P.S I'm sick of the society membership rewards being branded about as justification for anything, but the lack of governance on them is for a different discussion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 I agree that giving society membership for buying shares is wrong. Was that put to any vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superward Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 The money raised from the share sale gets doubled with the Les offer which is paying off the debt. No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazilian Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 I agree that giving society membership for buying shares is wrong. Was that put to any vote? Selling the shares wasnt put to a vote, opinions were sought, so giving away memberships wasnt voted on as part of this party piece The money raised from the share sale gets doubled with the Les offer which is paying off the debt. No? Depends,would that be your interpretation from the opening statement Recently we asked you, our members, to give us your opinion on a possible share sale – a move designed to raise a significant amount of money as reserves for the Club, while taking advantage of Les Hutchison’s Double Your Money Offer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 The nightmare scenario for me goes something like this. We reduce our holding to 57% 5 or 10 years from now, we hit an issue where we need to raise capital quickly. Could be relegation. Could be a failed TV deal. Could be a major stadium repair. Could be Brexit screws the value of the pound. Let's say 250k is required. Joe Money comes along and says "sure, I'll give you 250k for 10% of the club's shares". Not a terrible deal if we hold around 70%, but would push us into a minority holding if we start at 57%. I know this is unlikely, but I have seen businesses hit problems like this in the past. So whatever we do, we need to make sure we don't spread ourselves too thin. Especially at a time when we are picking up financially. Smart businesses make the most out of loans. We are fortunate that our creditor has given us an amazingly generous repayment schedule, interest free. Let's make the best use of that we can. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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