Wellfan1984 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 What I want to know is this.... If the SPL clubs do shit out of the real decision by removing them from the SPL, and then the SFL shit out of the real decision and let them into Division 1 - what the fuck happens if they manage to fail to get promoted? We going to go into league re-constructions, allow as many teams as possible in until we get to Rangers? We going to do it like the real old days where we nominate promotion places? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malky79 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 What I want to know is this.... If the SPL clubs do shit out of the real decision by removing them from the SPL, and then the SFL shit out of the real decision and let them into Division 1 - what the fuck happens if they manage to fail to get promoted? We going to go into league re-constructions, allow as many teams as possible in until we get to Rangers? We going to do it like the real old days where we nominate promotion places? Fail enough times and we might get that 16/18 team league most people want finally, every cloud and all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 I bought my first ever season ticket along wi my old man last month. The first time weve ever lived close enough and been off at weekends enough to make it feasible, but to be 100% honest im fucked off i bothered. I can honestly say that this season will be my last involved in any form of scottish football. Ive been a Well fan all my life,been going to games since i was 3 or 4,been to hampden several times,been on euro adventures and after 27 years im throwing in the towel and can say with absolutely no doubt in my mind,im fucking sick of Motherwell + fucking sick of Scottish Football. Weve always known the diddy clubs will take whatever shite the old firm throw. But even now,after Rangers died due to being caught in the midst of the most brazen + long winded scam ever seen in scottish football history we can see that even though we are on the cusp of a brave new dawn,were too shite scared to do anything but look for ways to make the path back to winning trophies as easy as possible on the Zombie incarnation of this disgusting,bigoted, scummy institution. Aye the directors took the brave decision to let the well society choose the vote on Rangers newco application, but only after theyve worked a plan out to ensure the cheating c***s are demoted 1 division,rendering our decision meaningless. And now were doomed for administration if "The Rangers" get punted? well if thats the case then fine,lets go into admin and the first wages saved will be on the useless c***s who can run a "self sufficient" club that cant afford to live without the bigot pound. Honestly the biggest amount of scaremongering pish ive ever heard. And its not only my team that has disgusted me, we have all these Charlie Big Bollocks teams with their chests puffed out,proudly shouting that they will vote no to the newco (aye cause they know its gonna mean a single division demotion and as little financial hit as possible) and doing deals behind closed doors to ensure Rangers keep a share of OUR TV MONEY by showing Div1 games next season as well as SPL. Fuck it, the games a bogey,for those "in charge" at least come out and admit what your doing and admit that no matter how much the old firm cheat,they will never ever be punished for it. Fucking sick to the stomach, Cheats never prosper? Aye unless your in the SPL, spineless,gutless,clueless,money grabbing,football killing shitebags,each + every chairman (apart from Mad Vlad,but thats cause he`s fucking bananas anyway!) Great statement, bang on the money. We are a few weeks away from playing in a competition that we never dared dream of and the club decide to issue a scaremongering tactic on Administration. All in an 11th hour bid to bring their beloved Rangers back from the dead, a club that has crippled our fan base and community over the years with the allure of tainted success and small minded bigotry. Show some balls Motherwell. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muzz Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Does anyone else think that - on reflection - Rangers being let into the 1st Division was always going to be the likely option? I smell a rat. Anyhow, I'm pleased that the club have taken this view, and it's fairly obvious how our club will vote on our behalf. I think it was Jay who mentioned earlier that the only team who will benefit from my money going forward will be Motherwell FC, and with the exception of some jolly boy outings up north, that's sums up exactly what I'm thinking. Finally, that's it for me regarding Rangers now, I'll never set a foot in Ipox or even Fir Park when that lot are in town. This whole episode has been a farce from start to finish, the only winners out of it have been Rangers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 We are a few weeks away from playing in a competition that we never dared dream of and the club decide to issue a scaremongering tactic on Administration. Did they? All I've seen is that the club have warned the fans that there could be serious financial problems in the future, with a risk of administration, if we don't find other ways to make up for the guaranteed loss of income that will hit on either side of the vote. That's hardly scaremongering. Just because the BBC and a few bigots on Rangers Media decided to make up that the club actually said a no vote will mean administration doesn't make it remotely true. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 As Jay alludes to it's pro OF spin from and for the OF minded. The club in my opininion have attempted to be honest (but a wee bit overly pessimistic) - they've came up with their side of the bargain and that's all we can continue to ask. Well Society members now have a vote and we'll see how that goes. It's what many were asking to be clarified for a few weeks now. I'd like to see Motherwell and the other clubs get their own individual and collective PR spin going to counter the utterly tiresome shite, which unfortunately since it's all we have (mainstream wise) it's all that many believe. i.e. Get your arse along to every ground in Scotland - support your club - support positive football - support a great day out for home and away fans. Minimise any hit created by getting this shower of shite to fuck! Time for some real positive action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fat_tony Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Am I the only one who doesn't see the information from the club as scaremongering? I thought it was a well stated list of reasoning both for and against the Newco with the information they can currently quantify. Going from the figures they can explicitly rely on, it looks like without Newco, we will be operating at a loss year on year. Obviously, in the worst case, this could potentially lead to insolvency. They're not saying it will, just warning that if this was the case, where it could end up, since we no longer have a benefactor to bail us out if need be. Prudent, rather than scaremongering in my view. However, there are other potential revenue streams in there that they mention, but can't quantify as yet, therefore can't rely on for this decision. The bottom line is that "Yes" leaves a mostly known financial situation, with the only unknown being the effect of fans walking away. "No" leads into a largely unknown financial situation, with the only figure that is known at this time being the decreased revenue from Rangers fans attendance. What doesn't help is the knee-jerk reaction stories from the likes of the BBC and frankly ill-informed crap like this. I'm still squarely in the "No" camp, and while not yet a Well Society member (but will join when finances allow), I have contributed to the site membership and passed my vote along to Andy_P. In my view, the unknown, while a risk, holds greater chance of long term improvement. We may just need to tighten our belts for a while and all chip in to help the club take the hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 No, the two posts immediately preceding yours said the same thing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special aka Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Just think of the future generations of potential football fans, and no Blue Bigots around to snatch their allegience, Kids are more likely to support their local teams, and towns like Motherwell and Hamilton and Falkirk and Stirling and Ayr and Livingston and Dumfires and Edinburgh and Dunfermline and Brechin and Arbroath and Inverness and Kilmarnock and Paisley and Airdrie and Dundee and Perth and Aberdeen and Montrose, etc., etc., etc., will no longer be awash with durty royal blue shirts ....................... and guess what Club Chairmen, you migh just have more people coming thru the turnstyles and you might just be in a more competitive league and youn might just benefit from secure sponsorship .................. and most importantly of all the football world will respect us for being tarnish free and clean. Just say No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fat_tony Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 No, the two posts immediately preceding yours said the same thing They weren't there when I started writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 They weren't there when I started writing. It took you 20 minutes to write that? Seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fat_tony Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 It took you 20 minutes to write that? Seriously? It's hard to get peace and quiet on a Sunday morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 It's hard to get peace and quiet on a Sunday morning By the time you finished it was afternoon 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welldaft Mk1 Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Shaka needs to attend an Anger management course How anyone can spin a negative view on the club allowing the Well Society members to vote. That and to go to the lengths (and costs) of sending out a 3 page summary with a stamp addressed 1st class envelope. Honest to god get a grip...... My take is that the contenets of said letter are a little on the negative side, but that means that were the worst case scenario to unfold, then the club could come out and say that they did warn us. As for League reconstruction. If these talks have taken place, then I am sure the vast majority of SPL and SFL clubs know very little at this stage and would still have to vote on any reconstruction. At this point Motherwell FC have done everything that the majority on here wanted them to and a little more. Whilst by no means 100 % perfect, they have IMHO been utterly professional in the way they have dealt with this crisis so far. Now is the time to get behind the club.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
du_du_dubordeaux Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 I'll be voting no but I'm concerned that although the majority of people on here want a No vote, this may not be representative of the Outcome. IMO if we vote yes and the overall outcome is a No, we end up proper fucked and viewed as "rangers sympathisers". We leave ourselves open to boycotts of the highest order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Shaka needs to attend an Anger management course How anyone can spin a negative view on the club allowing the Well Society members to vote. That and to go to the lengths (and costs) of sending out a 3 page summary with a stamp addressed 1st class envelope. I'm genuinely interested to know what exactly the club have done wrong recently. I was very vocal in slating the club for the statement they put out and I still maintain, whether deliberately not it, it stunk of 'yes' propaganda. But I just obviously don't see what other people are seeing when it comes to the guidelines they've produced. Either that or I've been sent the wrong stuff. The facts and figures for what will happen financially if a newco is allowed in the SPL are quite obviously provided with more certainty - that's just logical. The facts and figures for what will happen financially without a newco are quite obviously provided with less certainty - that's also just logical. Obviously anyone who has read the stuff also knows that the media's claim that the club have said a no vote will result in administration is utter nonsense. Therefore, I'm really struggling to see what the club are doing wrong here. The documentation makes grim reading in general, whether there's a newco or not. But nothing there seems to me to be weighted in favour of one side or scaremongering. It seems an honest-as-possible collection of the facts and figures that can be provided to the fans. I've voted 'no'. The Well Society will vote 'no'. The club will vote 'no'. Then we'll need to work hard to get past whatever financial obstacles are in the future - whether the SPL votes 'yes' or 'no' as a whole. But I just don't for a second see where this anger at the club has come from, at least regarding the Well Society vote. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Not sure if it's been posted, but the Well Society guidance document has been added to the official website; The following Guidance Document has been sent to all ‘Well Society members ahead of the ballot on the ‘Newco Rangers’ application to the SPL. It is not loaded to sway influence, nor is it designed to scare or panic ‘Well fans into one vote or the other. It represents the Board’s honest view with the information they have at hand on some of the risk and uncertainty surrounding each possible outcome of the vote on July 4th. Risks and Uncertainties to Motherwell FC Finances Although there is continued speculation on various NEWCO scenarios, there is, at present, only one issue to be determined, namely whether the application by NEWCO for transfer of the SPL share currently held by Rangers to the NEWCO, should be allowed. It is this scenario we put to members/shareholders in this ballot. This document seeks to set out the information and scenarios currently available to the Board to allow members and shareholders to cast their vote with maximum available information. We have written it as objectively as possible but require the obvious disclaimer that there remains very significant uncertainty particularly on the revenue impact of all scenarios. Current Trading In the financial year 2010/11 we made a profit of £541k. For financial year 2011/12 we do not yet have audited accounts, however, we expect a loss of circa £500k on the basis of income of £4.3m and costs of £4.8m. This loss was notified with our annual accounts last year. It is a result of our decision to maintain our football department budget at last year levels, increased performance related pay, increased cost due to Well Society launch, alongside lower revenues from Cup income, no European income and, crucially, our failure to secure a player trade in the previous 2 windows. It should also be noted that each league position, other than 1st and 2nd, is worth approximately £85k in revenue in SPL distribution and that our distribution obviously varies depending on performance. The flexibility of our cost base to adjust in the face of losses in income is limited. Our main cost is staff and, in particular, football department related. As always, the balance which requires to be struck is cutting costs to meet expected income while maintaining performance to the level where higher income can be achieved. As things stand our budget for expenditure for 2012/13 is £4.5m including a football department budget of £1.8m for players and a further £0.8m on other football activities subject to upside risks on the basis of performance. Clearly, a substantial portion of those costs relate to contracts which are binding on the Club and cannot be renegotiated at this time. It has been, and remains, irrespective of the NEWCO vote, essential that the Club identify, develop and trade football talent on terms that suit both player and club alike. The Board will always therefore consider competitive offers for our players if it is in the interests of all. We currently trade with no debt save a long-standing loan to our majority shareholder Mr John Boyle of £340k which is subject to a generous affordability repayment schedule. We have also benefitted in recent years from the generosity of Mr Boyle in making funding available to assist the Club cash flow from time to time. This is no longer something which we can rely upon, or expect. Europe The potential net income from our European qualifications is very difficult to predict but is likely to be a minimum of £250k on the basis of past experience. This estimated minimum amount has already been included in our budget forecast for 2012/13 as guaranteed income. In the event of us progressing successfully through the first round of fixtures there is significant upside to this. This is not an equation any Board can rely on for planning purposes at this stage. POTENTIAL IMPLICATIONS ON REVENUE – NEWCO DOES NOT RE-ENTER SPL 1. SPL distribution Last year this sum was approximately £1.56m or 36% of our total income. The main risk to this income comes from the existing or pending sponsor/TV contracts that themselves allow SKY SPORTS and other commercial partners to review in the event of the absence of Rangers or Celtic. Depending on the assumptions made this could mean a loss of income of around £600k. This is our best estimate however there are risks around this number dependent on negotiations with broadcast partners. 2. Gate Income Last year our cash income from gate receipts was £1.64m comprising £670k season tickets, £970k fans pay at gate. Of the pay at the gate cash income Rangers represented £300k or 31% while Celtic represented £285k or 29% while the other 9 SPL clubs totalled £300k or 31% of cash income (an average of £26k per game) The potential predictable loss of income from no NEWCO is around £275K (Rangers income minus average SPL other). In addition to this we would expect our commercial revenues from hospitality and sponsorship to reduce but the potential here is unknown. Our best estimate is that hospitality would be reduced by £40k. We do not anticipate a loss of other gate receipts under this scenario indeed it is possible that we may see a modest rise in attendance (which we do hope to encourage in any event) if we are successful in our marketing initiatives and the fans of all clubs, but especially our own – improve support in the face of the challenges this scenario provides. 3. Sponsor Income It is difficult to assess this impact which last year comprised around £275k of cash income (advertising and sponsorship). While the loss of the Rangers fan base will be a negative to any commercial contract we have to balance that with the upside of European competition and, other things being equal, the marginal relative increase in our ability to compete successfully in all competitions. 4. Player Trading We do not anticipate that this scenario has a net impact comparatively but do note that all clubs look likely to be reducing their headcount and costs in the coming year which could have a negative market impact. That said it places a premium on the best talent. POTENTIAL IMPLICATIONS ON REVENUE – NEWCO ENTERS SPL 1. SPL distribution Last year this sum was approximately £1.56m or 36% of our total income. We do not anticipate a risk to this sum in the event of NEWCO re-entering the SPL. 2. Gate Income Last year our cash income from gate receipts was £1.64m comprising £670k season tickets, £970k fans pay at gate. Of the pay at the gate cash income Rangers represented £300k or 31% while Celtic represented £285k or 29% while the other 9 SPL clubs totalled £300k or 31% of cash income (an average of £26k per game) While we do not anticipate a loss of gate receipts from NEWCO fans under this scenario it is very possible that we see a significant loss of income from fans of other clubs and our own depending on the general view of the ‘integrity’ of the game. This is impossible to judge at this stage but the numbers above give us the chance to draw our own conclusions. 3. Sponsor Income It is difficult to assess this impact which last year comprised around £275k of cash income (advertising and sponsorship). Again the risks in this scenario seem balanced. 4. Player Trading We do not anticipate that this scenario has a net impact comparatively but do note that all clubs look likely to be reducing their headcount and costs in the coming year which could have a negative market impact. That said it places a premium on the best talent. Conclusions The information above is written as objectively as possible given the uncertainty we face in making this decision. The Board is of the view that whatever decision is made on the NEWCO vote by the SPL clubs, the financial position of Motherwell Football Club will suffer. On a purely financial basis, a “Yes” vote would likely preserve commercial revenues, however the impact on gate receipts is unclear. The risks presented by a “No” vote are slightly easier to quantify insofar as gate receipts are concerned, but even then are extremely uncertain given we do not yet know what the SPL commercial partners will decide. There are clear risks to the financial stability and very future of this Club presented by the current situation. In the event of serious financial difficulty, the Board will have to look to the members, shareholders and supporters to further step up their support for the club and the Well Society. This is likely to be in the form of increased prices, higher attendances and further Society memberships and contributions. The potential target for this we estimate should be at least a doubling of the existing sum raised by the Society of £320k cash in the bank with a total of £368k pledged. It should be noted that these events also mean that these sums may be required to ensure the Club can continue to trade in the transition and not to meet our strategic goal of generating a £1.5m strategic reserve which we will require to generate over and above the sums required to trade through any transition. It is clear that if we are unable to replace significant amounts of income lost under either scenario, the club could be facing an insolvency event. Following new rules recently introduced at SPL, this would lead to a 21 point deduction, being one third of last year’s total. Whilst other clubs could also be in the same position, their points deduction would be lower. The Board will of course keep all of our members, shareholders and supporters fully informed of the state of trading and the requirements on all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andalg Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 It really is a no win situation keep Rangers in and the odds are we will face year after year of slow decline, fans drifting away from the game, best players being sold and gradual decline in the stadium etc. Kick Rangers out and we loose their money etc . Not an easy choice but there comes a time when you have to stand up to bullies and face the consequences. I personally would rather see Motherwell play in the third division than continue to rely on the scraps from the old firm table. Be brave and say NO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texanwellfan Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 I have no problems with the club statement. The problem is with the media doing the scare mongering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellman Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 I'm genuinely interested to know what exactly the club have done wrong recently. I was very vocal in slating the club for the statement they put out and I still maintain, whether deliberately not it, it stunk of 'yes' propaganda. But I just obviously don't see what other people are seeing when it comes to the guidelines they've produced. Either that or I've been sent the wrong stuff. The facts and figures for what will happen financially if a newco is allowed in the SPL are quite obviously provided with more certainty - that's just logical. The facts and figures for what will happen financially without a newco are quite obviously provided with less certainty - that's also just logical. Obviously anyone who has read the stuff also knows that the media's claim that the club have said a no vote will result in administration is utter nonsense. Therefore, I'm really struggling to see what the club are doing wrong here. The documentation makes grim reading in general, whether there's a newco or not. But nothing there seems to me to be weighted in favour of one side or scaremongering. It seems an honest-as-possible collection of the facts and figures that can be provided to the fans. I've voted 'no'. The Well Society will vote 'no'. The club will vote 'no'. Then we'll need to work hard to get past whatever financial obstacles are in the future - whether the SPL votes 'yes' or 'no' as a whole. But I just don't for a second see where this anger at the club has come from, at least regarding the Well Society vote. +1 I've already voted NO and I still think its a shrewd move by the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WellTiliDie Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 It looks like the club have over inflated the amount of income that the h**s bring to us in terms of gate receipts. The figure including vat is £360,000 and i reckon there would be no more than 8000 of them at Fir Park last season in total, say at an average cost of £20 per person this would be £133,000 net income to the club after accounting for Vat. This would mean that we bring in £167,000 (net) in from corporate hospitality over the 2 games which i highly doubt. Then you add in factors such as higher policing/stewarding/admin costs the actual value of club 12 to us has got be considerably lower than the 300k quoted. The c***s are meant to be boycotting next season anyway so it would be an advantage to us to have, say, Dundee bringing a half decent away support as opposed to a handful of h**s, who won't travel when they see that their team aren't winning every week. I really hope we vote no for the good of the game and if we are going to struggle financially we'll have to cut our budgets accordingly whether it be the playing staff or those that work behind the scenes at the club that have to suffer. Whichever way we vote this looks likely but if we vote yes Motherwell FC will never be the same again to many but if we do the right thing and vote no at least we can have pride in the club for making the right decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shooie Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 I'm genuinely interested to know what exactly the club have done wrong recently. I was very vocal in slating the club for the statement they put out and I still maintain, whether deliberately not it, it stunk of 'yes' propaganda. But I just obviously don't see what other people are seeing when it comes to the guidelines they've produced. Either that or I've been sent the wrong stuff. The facts and figures for what will happen financially if a newco is allowed in the SPL are quite obviously provided with more certainty - that's just logical. The facts and figures for what will happen financially without a newco are quite obviously provided with less certainty - that's also just logical. Obviously anyone who has read the stuff also knows that the media's claim that the club have said a no vote will result in administration is utter nonsense. Therefore, I'm really struggling to see what the club are doing wrong here. The documentation makes grim reading in general, whether there's a newco or not. But nothing there seems to me to be weighted in favour of one side or scaremongering. It seems an honest-as-possible collection of the facts and figures that can be provided to the fans. I've voted 'no'. The Well Society will vote 'no'. The club will vote 'no'. Then we'll need to work hard to get past whatever financial obstacles are in the future - whether the SPL votes 'yes' or 'no' as a whole. But I just don't for a second see where this anger at the club has come from, at least regarding the Well Society vote. I agree with all of that, especially about the craven media reports. The Board have done the best they could to be fair and honest. Compate that with the conduct of Rangers over the past dozen years. My "NO" vote was posted yesterday morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Has any Well Society member (apart from Steelboy ) voted Yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Has any Well Society member (apart from Steelboy ) voted Yes? Steelboy has no intention of voting yes, he's just being an erse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Steelboy has no intention of voting yes, he's just being an erse I know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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