Club 12 - Dundee Game Chat Etc.

[Steve Diggle]

http://www.dundeefc.co.uk/news_detail.asp?h=YESTERDAY'S-MINUTE-SILENCE-AT-MOTHERWELL&newsid=2640

A wee tad strong from the Dundee side. Overall agree with the sentiment.

 

But some of their boys continued behaving like fannies when the penny had dropped.

[Special aka]

http://www.dundeefc.co.uk/news_detail.asp?h=YESTERDAY'S-MINUTE-SILENCE-AT-MOTHERWELL&newsid=2640

 

From what I saw /heard on Alba last night, I am in total agreement with that. Well said Dundee FC

[100percentsteel]

Very rarely miss a game at home, away or abroad but haven't been to the 3 last games and I'm not planning going back any time soon. I can't bring myself to watch the same team and formation sent out every game no matter how badly they have played the week before. They've got my season ticket money so they are not lossing anything with me not attending. The manager is lacking in passion and tactical knowledge and the league table and complete lack of entertainment is proof of that.

 

On another note I went to hospitality at Firhill yesterday and watched a match fit Ross Forbes single handedly destroy Dunfermline. To add to this I also watched an ex well winger score a double, take on his man directly and put good crosses into the box all afternoon - funny how both of these players wern't rated by McCall!! More alarming though was that both teams played some entertaining and positive football and there were 11 comitted players in both teams.

 

Before the happy clappy McCall lovers start telling me it's a lower league and Forbes was only better because of the level I can tell you that at least 3/4 of our first team regulars wouldn't get near their starting 11.

 

I don't think we need new players or any additions to the squad to turn things around and climb the table, we simply need a change in tactics, formation and personel - that along with passion and fight would see us have a change in fortunes - none of the above will happen under McCall & Black.

[fat_tony]

I don't know how the fuck we're going to get out of this, especially as McCall seems completely unwilling to alter the starting 11. I know we aren't blessed with options but surely tae fuck giving Carswell or Hetherington a start and moving Law back to left mid is worth a shot?

 

We have no money and Ramsden, Daley, and Kerr are contributing nothing and wasting wages that could've been used to keep Jennings and secure a capable replacement.

 

Totally agree with the first part. I think it was either Jay or Lobey Dosser highlighted McCall's tendency to play his favourites, instead of looking to balance the team. I thought Carswell was excellent against Hearts, and really deserves a shot at filling in at centre mid. Certainly would bring an element of balance to the park and offer some more protection for our fragile central defence. Law has done well at left mid but is wasted when he has to drop back to collect the ball deep. Get him in an advanced position and let him create.

 

IMO, Ramsden was a gamble to try and bring in an experienced defender to replace Craigan/Clancy that has, unfortunately, not really worked. The fact that we were down to Kerr/Cummins due to injuries suggests to me that his signing was necessary, although with Saunders/Hutch coming back we should soon be relatively spoiled at centre back. Daley's yet to convince me at all, but then like McHugh he seldom gets more than 10-15 minutes here or there, so it's hard to judge. I've seen him be completely anonymous and I've seen him do well, but only ever in small doses, so hard to judge. We need a central midfielder more than we do a wide player though, so in that sense he's probably surplus to requirements.

 

McCall obviously rates Carswell since he offered him a new deal, but I think he just doesn't like to alter his favourite 11. We have players who can compete with any team in the league (outside Celtic) but I think we should be taking each game at it's own merit and adjusting the team (and gameplan) to suit, rather than sticking with the same 11 week in week out.

[siebsbarmyarmy]

 

My patience has ran out with Hateley and his deliveries and don't get me started on Humphrey.

 

Meanwhile at Fir Hill a player we deemed not good enough is tearing teams apart.....

 

I agree with your full post Milo but thought I would single these two out.

 

Hateleys set pieces of late have been truly atrocious and speaking to Thistle fans they are saying Forbes is worth a spot in there team for his deliveries alone. It's great to see and hear that Lawless and Forbes are thriving at Thistle and hopefully we will get to see them at Fir Park next year.

 

Lawless is a hero to there fans and Forbes is heading that way also. Two bad decisions to let them go in my opinion.

[Martin]

Ross fucking Forbes is the answer to our woes!!

 

I agree with the overall opinion. Missing Jennings and Craigan. However, I think we're creating enough chances, we just don't seem to have a finisher on form, someone who can get a good powerful shot away at all. I'm hopeful our strikers will come good at some point and we'll hit some form for a bit.

[Well 4 Europe]

Never mind Forbes and Lawless, Stevie Craig has 4 goals in 6 games for Thistle this season. Get him back and he'll fire us to Europe nae danger.

[siebsbarmyarmy]

Ross fucking Forbes is the answer to our woes!!

 

I agree with the overall opinion. Missing Jennings and Craigan. However, I think we're creating enough chances, we just don't seem to have a finisher on form, someone who can get a good powerful shot away at all. I'm hopeful our strikers will come good at some point and we'll hit some form for a bit.

 

Don't be a complete bell end.

 

Where exactly did I say that? Or are you trying to be that much of a smart arse you didn't read the post through your Ribena ?

 

My point was I feel we were too quick to get rid of him. It's not secret that I was a fan of his and feel he got a raw deal since the time of Browns arrival until he left. I just feel its ironic as I believe he could add something to this team right now.

[Joeboy]

Jennings and Clancy both need replaced.

 

We showed in the 2nd half of last season we could cope without Craigan.

 

Money was available for replacements towards the end of Aug. Dempster fucked up the Stevenson deal, dodged a bullet, and McCall couldn't identify anyone else.

 

If we go out the cup to Aberdeen though, I wouldn't be giving McCall any money to bring in anyone in January if he isn't signed up to a new contract.

 

I'd say we got by and just with Clancy over Craigan last season. He was an accident waiting to happen in my opinion, whether it be by DVD defending or losing his temper. I don't think anything we have this season is any better however. Cummins has potential, but no player is the finished article at 19 and they are bound to make mistakes and centre half is a place where mistakes will be punished significantly.

 

When Hutchinson and Reynolds broke into the team they had Craigan's experience beside them, talking them through games. That's something Cummins and Kerr have not had when in the team. Hutchinson is a great centre half, but he's only 21 himself and probably not ready to play the "Craigain" role in there. As for Ramsden from what I gather he's spent most of his career playing right back and holding midfield, so he's not as comfortable at centre half as you'd like your most experienced centre back to be.

 

As for replacing Jennings, we are yet to see if Carswell can fill that void. I would give him a run of games in the first team to see if he is capable. As someone said before in this thread Law and Lasley aren't fitting together in midfield. Both are too eager to get forward and we don't really have a balance. If McCall instructed Lasley just to sit in front of the defence that may be fine, but that's not really his natural game. It pains me to say it, but other than Panathinaikos at home I haven't seen Lasley have that good a game this season (although I did miss Perth last week where I heard he was great by all accounts). As things stand I would put Carswell in there beside him and put Law out on the left. I know that leaves Murphy, Humphrey, Ojamaa and Higdon fighting for three spots, but I do think a better balance is needed in there.

 

At centre half, we have exhausted all of our options and there still remains a problem, in centre midfield we haven't. The only real variation in our centre midfield in the league this season was when Hetherington started with both Lasley and Law.

 

You'd think that with our defence being young and relatively unexperienced we would be doing more to offer them protection from midfield, but if anything we seem to be offering them less. So many times this season I've seen passages of play by our opposition in the space that Jennings used to fill and we've done nothing to rectify it.

 

 

 

[mfc88]

Lawless in particular who wasn't even given a chance in our team - I only remember seeing about 10 mins of him in a cup game once.

 

For me, our main problem is that we're obviously missing Jennings and that NO ONE in mccalls starting 11 does his role. Our only imposing midfielder now is lasley and when he commits forward, which he likes to do, our defence is massively exposed. I love nicky law as a creative exciting player, but not in that role. Why can't McCall just at least try giving carswell a run of games there FFS.

 

On top of that, we have 2-3 passengers in the team which needs to be addressed. Having said all that I feel I've wasted my breath as I can guarantee I already know the starting 11 for next week.

[mfc]

id rather we were paying the likes of forbes and lawless than total dross like daley and ramsden

[Dr.Pepper]

Forbes scored a 30 yarder yesterday. Anyway, McCall obviously does not trust carswell in the centre midfield for some unknown reason as law can't play in that role. Give the lad a run of games. Someone playing in their natural position is not rocket science.

[Joeboy]

I agree with your full post Milo but thought I would single these two out.

 

Hateleys set pieces of late have been truly atrocious and speaking to Thistle fans they are saying Forbes is worth a spot in there team for his deliveries alone. It's great to see and hear that Lawless and Forbes are thriving at Thistle and hopefully we will get to see them at Fir Park next year.

 

Lawless is a hero to there fans and Forbes is heading that way also. Two bad decisions to let them go in my opinion.

 

Pretty much agree with all of this.

 

Seeing Lawless doing so well while we have an imposter of a footballer and a waste of a jersey in Omar Daley taking up a much healthier wage than it would have cost us to keep him is infuriating. Obviously it's a step down in division but I do think we were too hasty in letting him go, especially when Daley can't be arsed.

 

Never been too critical of McCall in the past, but giving Daley an 18 month contract was complete lunacy. Especially at a time where money was "tight".

 

As for Forbes, I always think back to that missed penalty at New Douglas Park as the turning point in his Motherwell career. By the time Craig Brown arrived, the sting had been taken out of his rich form a bit, but not enough to merit basically not playing another match in his preferred position the rest of the season. Forbes had ability and potential, but was obviously far from the finished product and required a lot of work, I can't help but think if things would have been different if we had used him differently. Obviously his fitness was an underlying issue and that was probably down to the lad himself. Maybe he can get by a bit better without it in the First Division.

[mfc]

Forbes scored a 30 yarder yesterday. Anyway, McCall obviously does not trust carswell in the centre midfield for some unknown reason as law can't play in that role. Give the lad a run of games. Someone playing in their natural position is not rocket science.

 

agreed its time carswell got some game time,our midfield is all over the place right now all it takes is 1 simple pass and there all out the game.we really need somone else in there lasleys trying to do too much and its effecting his game big time plus carswell would give our centre backs some much needed protection which is badly lacking right now

[ropy]

If Carswell came in Humphrey would drop out, then he could be used as an impact sub after 60 minutes against a tiring defence. Its not a bad idea to have a potential game changer on the bench, don't think we do at the moment

[Joeboy]

Aye, wouldn't be sorry to see that change ropy. Again, not too much of a slight on Humphrey as I think he's always a threat, they way our starting line up currently is, we badly lack a plan B.

 

The changes you can almost predict. Daley for Humphrey - a guy who can't be arsed for a guy who is always eager, perhaps despite his footballing shortcomings or McHugh for Ojamaa/Murphy- where despite McHugh's work rate and industry, he just isn't, from what I've seen, the same quality of player as either of them. As for the rest of the bench, Francis-Angol seems to just be a straight swap for Hammell when required and it looks like we won't see Carswell or Hetherington until McCall's ran out of full backs and wide midfielders saying "I want to play centre mid today".

[Martin]

Don't be a complete bell end.

 

Where exactly did I say that? Or are you trying to be that much of a smart arse you didn't read the post through your Ribena ?

 

My point was I feel we were too quick to get rid of him. It's not secret that I was a fan of his and feel he got a raw deal since the time of Browns arrival until he left. I just feel its ironic as I believe he could add something to this team right now.

Didn't say you did, didn't mean to be a smart arse neither if you'll forgive me, but Forbes had how many years to prove himself? Aside from his impressive start he was completely ineffective and far too slow for this level. A lot of folk predicted he'd do well at a lower level cos he'll have time and space that he wouldn't get in the SPL.

[Kmcalpin]

Totally agree with the first part. I think it was either Jay or Lobey Dosser highlighted McCall's tendency to play his favourites, instead of looking to balance the team.

 

The same view has been rife in the Cooper Club and POD Stand for weeks now. Thats the worrying thing isn't it that many fans agree on our weaknesses (we all know what they are). If many fans are alert to them then you can be sure opposition managers also are and are devising ways to exploit them. Like Jim Gannon's latter days in charge, we are so predictable.

[Special aka]

.................................. Aside from his impressive start he was completely ineffective and far too slow for this level. ......................

Spot on ............. plus he was utter pissh imho, ran like he had his legs on the wrong way round and had no idea what to do with his right foot.

[milo]

Steven Craig? Remember when he left us it was because he said he wanted folk on holiday to have heard of the team he played for?

[numpty]

Steven Craig? Remember when he left us it was because he said he wanted folk on holiday to have heard of the team he played for?

Sadly, as long as he's on loan at Thistle, his wish might have come true… Partick Thistle are one of those teams that just about everyone seems to have heard of!

[johnstone]

I can understand getting rid of Forbes. He had his chance and the majority of the time was shite.

 

But Lawless was a stupid move. He is on fire for the best team in the first division and as many have said would be a much better option that Omar Sharif!

[Andy_P]

Veering back towards the game itself slightly, I don't really think we've had our just rewards over the past couple of home games. Bad luck? An inability to get the job done? Or a measure of both?

 

It was almost laughable that after spending the whole game in Dundee's half, they saunter up the park and pop one in with their first effort of note.

 

We lost our way for a bit after that and our equaliser actually came as a wee bit of a surprise to me. Nicely timed too to spare what would likely have been a crescendo of boos. We never came close to the standards of last Saturday or the first half but going in level was the least we deserved.

 

I had hoped with that boost before the break we might have gone on to get the three points, but it was all huffing and puffing and nothing was troubling them greatly. So soon after Wednesday thoughts of another sucker punch were at the back of my mind, I suppose at least we avoided the ignominy of that.

 

All in keeping with the rather meh season so far. The further into the campaign we go the more and more echoes there are of McGhee's second season - a much anticipated european campaign that was over before it really began, disappointing League Cup exit, league campaign that has no consistency whatsoever against a backdrop of defensive woes, financial constraints and a manager coming to the end of his contract with a hefty chunk of the squad in the same boat.

 

Whilst things could go right down that road, there does remain the potential for it to be better than how that scenario came to pass. Still only November and hardly out of reach of last seasons third place finish. Tighten up at the back and become that little bit more clinical and things might look a little brighter....he said hopefully!

[daver]

Having just seen the BBC highlights, it looks as though Higdon was onside with the left back playing him on (despite what the commentator says).

 

I watched the Utd. highlights as well and it seems incredible we only gained one point from the chances we created in the two games.

[foghorn]

Having just seen the BBC highlights, it looks as though Higdon was onside with the left back playing him on (despite what the commentator says).

 

I watched the Utd. highlights as well and it seems incredible we only gained one point from the chances we created in the two games.

 

I was close to it in the East and thought it was at least "in line" but the linesman thought otherwise. We need to start taking chances or we will struggle in a very tight league. 2 wins would throw us well up the league.