NottsMFC Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 We don't have enough quality teams to make a 20 team league interesting probably, but that's because we elected to bring in an elite structure which would benefit just a few clubs. If we opened it out more teams would benefit from an even financial spread and catch up fairly quickly so in a few years we could well have enough teams to make the league more interesting. Personally I'm more interested in Motherwell and watching us play the same teams over and over and over and over is not as attractive as watching us play the same teams over and over. The smaller set-up is boring so what's the difference of bringing in a boring bigger set-up? Answer is simply those with the money want to keep it. That's wrong so I'm still of the opinion 2 leagues of 18 or 20 to protect those who are capable of running a full time set-up and help them to catch up with the rest and give us a decent league in a few years time. Listening to Leann on sportsound on Tuesday, your point on teams catching up quickly & in a few years then being in a position to make the league more interesting is exactly how she plans to sell their proposed reconstruction to the fans. The difference being that she seemed to be saying the proposal would be a kind of stepping stone to allow the other teams to catch up, as they are not currently in a position to compete at the moment. Guessing the fairer financial distribution model would be the vehicle for them being able to do this. That's what I took from it anyway. Whether this is all just the sales pitch to push it through & there is no real appetite for any extended top flight, who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatcalf Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 Listening to Leann on sportsound on Tuesday, your point on teams catching up quickly & in a few years then being in a position to make the league more interesting is exactly how she plans to sell their proposed reconstruction to the fans. The difference being that she seemed to be saying the proposal would be a kind of stepping stone to allow the other teams to catch up, as they are not currently in a position to compete at the moment. Guessing the fairer financial distribution model would be the vehicle for them being able to do this. That's what I took from it anyway. Whether this is all just the sales pitch to push it through & there is no real appetite for any extended top flight, who knows. Heard it beofre, last time they came up with some cockended reconstruction suggestion. I coud live with it if there was a definite framework in place to work towards that goal but there won't be, it's a quick fix to keep the money where they all want it kept. If they're going to try sell it that way it has to be set in stone that it's the end goal and everything inbetween is working towards it. Bet ye it's not though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 I don't agree with fatcalf's overly-simplistic (in my opinion, but I could be completely wrong) vision but I'll maybe respond to that later. However, the idea that this current proposal is somehow going to help teams catch up quickly is utter pish beyond belief. If anything, it's going to make the top flight in Scotland even more of a closed shop. It's quite conceivable that the bottom four of the top tier would finish the top four of the stupid mini-league year after year after year. Are you telling me, if the new regime was in place just now, that the likes of Dunfermline and Livingston would be finishing above the likes of Hearts and Kilmarnock? This new proposal could see the exact same 12 teams playing in the top-flight for five years or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted February 1, 2013 Report Share Posted February 1, 2013 This new proposal could see the exact same 12 teams playing in the top-flight for five years or more. Spot on and precisely the reason why all SPL clubs are behind this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggischomper Posted February 2, 2013 Report Share Posted February 2, 2013 I wonder how the chairmen that initially wanted the premier league in, what? 1975? would think now if they could see the utter fucking mess we have become. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLip69 Posted February 3, 2013 Report Share Posted February 3, 2013 I wonder how the chairmen that initially wanted the premier league in, what? 1975? would think now if they could see the utter fucking mess we have become. They would probably be fucking raging, but the truth is the Top 10 in 1975 was a great idea. The ganme had been seen as becoming stale the previous 9 years had belonged to Celtic, not only had they won 9 in a row but they had also appeared in 17 of the 18 domestic Cup Finals in that same period, not forgetting two European Cup Finals. In short, the league was ripe for change and I remember a frisson of excitement about the new venture and truth be told it worked extremely well in its first decade or so, so much so that there were stories that the English league, beset by vandalism, European bans etc, were looking to bring in something similar. Then in the mid 80's we started to fuck about with it, increasing it to 12 for a couple of seasons, then back to 10, and back up to 12 again. The real killer for our game was TV money and the increase in financial reqwards for teh Champions league. The SPL was swiftly formed and a closed shop established. TV money was split between those in the SPL only and very little funds went any further than the bottom team in the SPL. There was no parachute payments. Relegation was almost seen as a death sentence for some clubs, the rest in the SPL were spending outwith their means just to remain in situ. As the OF's stranglehold on the Champions League money tightened they got richer while the rest of us got poorer. Clubs below the SPL didn't have the wherewithal to mount challenges for the SPL and we had the ludicrous situation of a new club, Gretna, mounting a sustained challenge and arriving in the SPL on the back of money it didn't have. People talking of fairy stories and a breath of fresh air, until the castles in the air fell to ground. The TOP 10 as originally envisaged in 1975 worked, it worked too well if truth be told, Dundee Utd and Aberdeen are testimony to that. The SPL, a league formed out of greed and to the benefit of only two clubs, is where we failed. We need radical change to get the money in the game to as many clubs as possible to strengtthen our game. Watching as one of our bigger clubs, Aberdeen, lose a promising young player to a club like Bournemouth is painful, but it's where we are. Once we realise that the SPL is not only killing our smaller clubs but is having an equally devastating effect on everyone outside Celtic, we'll maybe start addressing the realities of our game. I wont hold my breath, we'll get what the TV companies want and say nothing. If this ludicrous proposal goes through, I'll have watched my last league match in Scotland. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Actually, while I don't disagree with a lot of your post, I think the main killers of the original SPL were twofold. a) Playing each other a minimum of 4 times a season led to boredom and familiarity where teams could set up to nullify the opposition b) 20% of the league being relegated led to a lot of fear in many clubs and resulted in 'park the bus' tactics. Between the two, it was the fear that was the ultimate death of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_P Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 b) 20% of the league being relegated led to a lot of fear in many clubs and resulted in 'park the bus' tactics. And this is something which doesn't appear to have been considered, or at least mentioned with regard to the 8/8/8 team split - particularly the middle relegation/promotion fighting eight. It was a regularly made claim of the era that you and Lip69 refer that youth development was seriously stunted because of that fear factor, where managers would go almost always go with experience over youth. What you will gain competitively to get your TV money I think will surely have a negative impact on young players coming through where there is no safe middle ground to throw in a couple of laddies. What chance are young players going to have to dip their toes in the water when 4 out of 8 teams for example are fighting against life in "Division One" (Championship my fucking arse!) the next season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onthefringes Posted February 4, 2013 Report Share Posted February 4, 2013 Once we realise that the SPL is not only killing our smaller clubs but is having an equally devastating effect on everyone outside Celtic, we'll maybe start addressing the realities of our game. I wont hold my breath, we'll get what the TV companies want and say nothing. Therein lies the problem... As Peter Lawell pulls the strings behind the scenes The re-distribution of wealth for first place for the next few years unlikely to change, just the gulf between those in second and the rest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Ross County had their fans forum tonight. Overwhelming no to 12 12 18. Good club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellfan1984 Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 The biggest problem is the league is still being decided by the clubs. They fucked the original SPL with almost every decision (it was them all not just the OF who thought the finance model and the previous voting system was the way forward) they made. The way I read it is prize money redistributed but not the winners - and that would only be a good idea for one club and it certainly not Motherwell or Ross County or Falkirk and certainly not a good thing for the Forfar or Peterhead of the set up or the competitiveness of the lague Last year it was 10 team league or death, now it is 12 with a system that has already failed somewhere else..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Ross County had their fans forum tonight. Overwhelming no to 12 12 18. Good club. So thats one SPL club who will definitely be voting against the package of proposals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted February 8, 2013 Report Share Posted February 8, 2013 Good that they voted no, but as they are one of the clubs likely to get dragged into the 8 team (zero points) relegation playoff, it might be a self-preservation decision rather than for the good of the game. I might just be getting cynical though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoF Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Good that they voted no, but as they are one of the clubs likely to get dragged into the 8 team (zero points) relegation playoff, it might be a self-preservation decision rather than for the good of the game. I might just be getting cynical though. My first thoughts too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Will Ross County take their fans views on board when voting? Almost all clubs will vote out of self interest. It also depends on the nature of the fans' meeting. Was the club present? Did they address the meeting with any facts/views? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siebsbarmyarmy Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Ross County are one of the best run clubs in Scotlabd financially. It won't be about the cash for them so I fancy them to actually take the fans point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoF Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Ross County are one of the best run clubs in Scotlabd financially. It won't be about the cash for them so I fancy them to actually take the fans point of view. Maybe, although if the board have worked hard to create the financial stability they now have are they likely to risk that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Maybe, although if the board have worked hard to create the financial stability they now have are they likely to risk that? No fans = no money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian-in-Oz Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 No fans = no money. No fans + tv deal = money Fans + no tv deal = no money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 No fans + tv deal = money Fans + no tv deal = no money Bollocks. Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 No fans + tv deal = money Fans + no tv deal = no money No fans + tv deal = money + death Fans + no tv deal = no money + survival Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian-in-Oz Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Bollocks. Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. Tell that to the chairman who constantly claim they can't survive without cash form a tv deal. Do you honestly think a club like Motherwell could survive on the basis of 4000 odd core fans & no tv cash? You have a nice wee fantasy world where everyone cuts their cloth to suit their budget so no tv cash is needed but this is the real world where tv cash rules football & clubs like Motherwell Killie etc get more money from tv than they do from fans coming through the gates. Quote from Killies chairman yesterday He said: “Television can give with one hand and take away with the other when it’s terrestrial companies who are involved in coverage of football. “There’s guaranteed income paid directly by the broadcaster to the home club and that’s obviously a good thing. “But we already know the crowd will be affected because the game is open to everyone on television. “We can’t complain too much because the cheque from the TV company outweighs the loss of people at the game. The bit in bold tells you that you're the one talking bollocks unless you think the fans are going to come flooding back coz theres no game on the tv & pay the extra admission prices to make up for the lack of tv cash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 The bit in bold highlights the insanity of it all. We'd be as well signing up for everything the TV companies want and moving to the indoor pitch at Ravenscraig. We're reaching a tipping point and I genuinely hope the game in scotland reaches a ground zero point where television fucks of and the game rebuilds organically. Football games on the telly need a crowd. Live games in scotland are like Sunday league games in terms of atmosphere. There are many elements of the game in scotland that need addressed. This current farce attempts to address some while leaving several others dangling screaming for some sort of attention (anything to do with match day fans funnily enough) The club and their SPL colleagues may yet afuckingain be getting some grace from their paying support but the elastic is at the point of snapping. Fans need to get something back and soon. If these proposals go through and finances improve like they promise then they better be committing to get their fucking heads together pronto style to address the big factors that they've totally missed. The game here is on life support - the next set of developments could be significant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 Tell that to the chairman who constantly claim they can't survive without cash form a tv deal. There's no point. They wouldn't listen anyway. Do you honestly think a club like Motherwell could survive on the basis of 4000 odd core fans & no tv cash? Yes, I do. There are scores of teams all over the country in different leagues and divisions who survive without any money from a television deal. You have a nice wee fantasy world where everyone cuts their cloth to suit their budget so no tv cash is needed but this is the real world where tv cash rules football & clubs like Motherwell Killie etc get more money from tv than they do from fans coming through the gates. Fantasy world? Why the fuck is cutting your outgoings so that they are less than your income pure fantasy? That attitude is why so many clubs are such a precarious position right now. Quote from Killies chairman yesterday I don't give a toss what that c***o has to say about anything. If I thought his opinions were valid, I'd happily ignore the fact that Rangers conned and cheated their way for many years just because I don't want to miss them visiting a couple of times a season. “We can’t complain too much because the cheque from the TV company outweighs the loss of people at the game. The bit in bold tells you that you're the one talking bollocks unless you think the fans are going to come flooding back coz theres no game on the tv & pay the extra admission prices to make up for the lack of tv cash How am I talking bollocks if I'm suggesting that the majority of Motherwell's regular 4000 attendees would still turn up to Fir Park if the club showed it cared more about its own fans than anyone else? Competition wouldn't differ as every other club would have to cut their cloth accordingly too. This all started when I said: no fans = no money. Why do television companies screen football matches? Because fans will watch the broadcast. If there are no fans to watch the broadcast, the television companies will not screen the games. Or am I still living in a fantasy world? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunnyMFC Posted February 9, 2013 Report Share Posted February 9, 2013 I'm sure Motherwell in fact every club could survive on no TV money we would need to make a lot of sacrifices on wages by off loading everyone and significantly reduce our wage bill. The idea of there no being any football without TV is utter tripe and it the chasing for money and TV deals instead of addressing the pricing issues and quality of the game is what will kill our game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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