superwell87 Posted December 7, 2013 Report Share Posted December 7, 2013 In all fairness, we have been due a dodgy season. We have been spoliled in recent seasons, and that looks like it may be catching up on us. Best thing we can do now is to try get out of the current sticky patch we are in and continue to try and finish in the top 6. Onwards and upwards.... COYW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goggles & Flippers Posted December 7, 2013 Report Share Posted December 7, 2013 The league table now shows us in 5th which is getting us to our true levelling off point, however the worrying thing is every other team in the top 5 have pummelled at least once this season. Early December and I've yet to witness anything resembling entertainment at FP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Diggle Posted December 8, 2013 Report Share Posted December 8, 2013 The league table now shows us in 5th which is getting us to our true levelling off point, however the worrying thing is every other team in the top 5 have pummelled at least once this season. Early December and I've yet to witness anything resembling entertainment at FP. Almost resembling the Craig Brown era then By fuck that was dire fare, was it no'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted December 8, 2013 Report Share Posted December 8, 2013 The Craig Brown stuff wasn't overly pleasing on the eye but we had a sense of purpose about us and you knew we could beat anybody on our day. What we are watching just now is as bad as the Malpas era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted December 8, 2013 Report Share Posted December 8, 2013 Treating this season as a transitional period and using it to blood youngsters in preparation for the years ahead sounds like a good idea. Relegation isn't a realistic threat, after all... However, do we have the fans to allow that to happen? I'd fear for the young lads because we have a contingent of our fans who have no patience and will crucify any player deemed not good enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo Posted December 8, 2013 Report Share Posted December 8, 2013 The thing that worries me the most is the crowds plummeting. Our attendances are meagre even when the team is playing well. The last couple of seasons they really didn't go up much even although we were high in the league the full campaign and I honestly believed "stay away" fans who only come out for cup finals and euro games would return when Faddy was re -signed. Shows you what I know! There's apathy in the stands at the moment to the cup exit and when the team don't even give a reaction in the following game and the managers words don't offer any comfort then I can see the following weeks attendances hitting new lows. This combined with the loss of revenue from the early cup exit is very worrying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onthefringes Posted December 8, 2013 Report Share Posted December 8, 2013 Not just a Motherwell phenomenon, now eating into our 'hardcore' support- difficult to tempt them back I suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well Up For It! Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Where we go from here, is we pick up and get on with it! Sometimes, the negativity on here puts me off coming on the forum! Yes we have been poor of late, yes we had a shocker at Albion that is one of our worst results and yes we our season has sorted flattened out...but it's not the end! We too easily forget that we are a small club with a small budget and have consistently punched way above our weight of late. We have had an amazing 5/6 year period of glory (maybe out with the cups) and we are now just on a down side. I have every faith we will pick ourself up in time. Yeah, I'd like to see more fight from our boys and more passion - it's a bit discouraging. However, we have lost some really big players this summer and maybe not got the best out of our replacements. Melvin's post is absolutely spot on - drop the dead weight and the players we can't afford (Ainworth, Anier, Faddy?) now and bring in the youngsters. Look at how it's revolutionised Dundee Utd this season. If we finish top 6 this year it will be a good season for me. Bottom 6 is disappointing, but not the end of the world. We are in no danger whatsoever of relegation and we should use the remainder of the season to bleed our youngsters and see what they are made of - which will reap massive rewards going forward and build a platform to sell the best players on and build a core for a team. Despite how shite it might feel being a 'Well fan just now - it's still the only team for me!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 1386509608[/url]' post='400932']The Craig Brown stuff wasn't overly pleasing on the eye but we had a sense of purpose about us and you knew we could beat anybody on our day. What we are watching just now is as bad as the Malpas era. We played some great stuff under brown. 3 goal wins at pittodrie and rugby park, three absolute hammerings of hearts, sticking 4 past st johnstone, aalesunds, 6-6 and 3-3. Not bad for less than a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 We played some great stuff under brown. 3 goal wins at pittodrie and rugby park, three absolute hammerings of hearts, sticking 4 past st johnstone, aalesunds, 6-6 and 3-3. Not bad for less than a year. We played some great stuff under McCall too as recently as last season. The problem right now is we don't have Brown's team or McCall's team from last year. The thread is about how do we move forward, not if you remember how good we have been in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 9, 2013 Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 Going forward we need to find a way to ditch our manager and the vast majority of our squad without costing us anything or accept we are going to be terrible until August 2015 and cut the budget to the bare minimum until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvinBragg Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Going forward we need to find a way to ditch our manager and the vast majority of our squad without costing us anything or accept we are going to be terrible until August 2015 and cut the budget to the bare minimum until then. Only once since 2001 have we sacked our manager. I wouldn't like to hazard a guess at how many managers Hibs and Aberdeen have sacked in that time. Which club has had more success? I'm not saying that there's never a time when getting rid of the manager isn't the answer but for me, a large part of our success has been down to the stability at the club. To me, saying we need to try to find a way to get rid of our manager after a few months of rough form (in the loosest sense, given our league position I'm sure that Ross County or Kilmarnock would kill for our form) without giving him at least a transfer window to turn it around, seems the antithesis of how we've been running our club. And that's before you come to whether McCall has earned the right to be given a chance to turn it around. The fantastic team that finished last season contained five McCall signings. Clearly he's done a good job with previous signings. Did he cover himself in glory with his business this summer? No, but on paper we all liked the look of most of the names he brought in. Vigurs and McFadden have been disappointments but no one saw that coming. Lawson was the only strange one and simply because it wasn't a type of player we needed. I think McCall deserves a chance to try and turn things around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punk_in_drublic Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Only once since 2001 have we sacked our manager. I wouldn't like to hazard a guess at how many managers Hibs and Aberdeen have sacked in that time. Which club has had more success? I'm not saying that there's never a time when getting rid of the manager isn't the answer but for me, a large part of our success has been down to the stability at the club. To me, saying we need to try to find a way to get rid of our manager after a few months of rough form (in the loosest sense, given our league position I'm sure that Ross County or Kilmarnock would kill for our form) without giving him at least a transfer window to turn it around, seems the antithesis of how we've been running our club. And that's before you come to whether McCall has earned the right to be given a chance to turn it around. The fantastic team that finished last season contained five McCall signings. Clearly he's done a good job with previous signings. Did he cover himself in glory with his business this summer? No, but on paper we all liked the look of most of the names he brought in. Vigurs and McFadden have been disappointments but no one saw that coming. Lawson was the only strange one and simply because it wasn't a type of player we needed. I think McCall deserves a chance to try and turn things around... Good post. For me McCall definitely deserves a chance. This his first major real rough patch in nearly 3 years - not bad going for a Motherwell manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 he had a chance to build a squad this year and failed badly. Every single poster on here was looking for us to add pace and creativity and he signed guys with no speed or guile. Sacking him isn't a priority because no one is going to get this squad playing good football and we're not going to have any money to sign many players next summer. Our budget will make most of the choices for us in the foreseeable future. The biggest decision is whether or not to extend lasley and hammell and to a lesser extent mcmanus or bring in younger cheaper players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvinBragg Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 His signings in the summer lacked pace and creativity? He went for Vigurs who had a good few assists last season and re-signed McFadden who, on the evidence of Feb-May, was going to bring a lot of guile to the table. I don't recall many complaints when we signed these guys in the summer, unusual for this forum. Have these signings worked out? No. My main criticism of McCall this season would be that he seemed to sign Vigurs on the basis of his stats from last season without figuring out where he'd fit within our team. McFadden, well, that particular mystery has been well discussed on here. On the basis of last season's form no one quibbled with his signing.. Lack of pace in the team? Sure, will give you that. He signed Ainsworth (too late, I grant you) to try and remedy this. Anier is also no slouch. Ainsworth, for me, has looked good in short periods of games but can't seem to sustain it. Anier has contributed a few goals but I'm not convinced by him. Would I keep him? No. But nor do I think he's been a truly terrible signing. Looking at his other summer signings, it's a mixed bag. McManus and Sutton have done enough to justify their signing. Nielsen is no better than Hollis but I think he's a decent keeper providing competition (despite a few howlers, which he seems to be ironing out the more he plays). Kerr has all the tools, inconsistent as hell though. Some weeks looks a real prospect, other weeks looks like a guy who's wandered out of the stands. Given his attributes though, I can understand why McCall gambled on him. He won't be on a massive wage. Lawson is the puzzling one. Decent player (County fans seem to think the loss of him is a major reason they're struggling) but not what we needed. Was his pre-contract arranged when it looked like Carswell might not stay? Not a great transfer window for McCall but he's done not too badly in previous ones so I'd give him a chance to repeat the trick. I know we have no money. Did we not sign Ojaama when we had "no money"? McCall has pulled a few rabbits out of hats before (who thought that Clancy or Ramsden would work out as well?) so you never know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvinBragg Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Just a thought. In the last 18 months we've lost Randolph Hateley Craigan Clancy Humphrey Jennings Law Murphy Higdon Ojaama Add a left back and you have a decent SPL side. I reckon only Hearts have lost the same number of first team players and they're in administration. We've received two transfer fees for those ten players. Bad planning by the club some will say, but how do you sell players when there are no offers on the table? And how do you stop players running down their contracts when they refuse to sign a new one? It's the peril of signing guys who then outperform expectations. Who really thought when we signed Higdon that we'd struggle to keep him beyond his two years? Who thought two years ago that Humphrey would develop into a player that had several offers on the table? Victims of our own success... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Good points Melvin. Looking at that team line up depresses me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 there were definitely some posters pointing out the lack of quality in the summer signings. You can make a case for them all individually but collectively the squad is a shambles and the buck stops with mccall. Between extensions, new signings and loans he's dished out about a dozen contracts recently so he has clearly had a decent level of resources available to him. With the club walking a financial tightrope i don't think we can afford to give him that financial leeway again. Mcghee, gannon and brown were all the right men at the right time but when circumstances changed they weren't up to the new task. Mccall is the same for me, he was the ideal man to run a steady ship when we had quality compared to the rest of the league but the task at hand has changed and i don't think he is cut out for it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvinBragg Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 I can see why you'd make that point but I'd argue that his track record at replacing players has, until this summer been pretty good. He had barely got his feet under the desk when Blackman and Reynolds left. Brought in a couple of experienced guys to tide us over til the summer. Then Sutton left. That meant twice in six months he had to replace our top scorer. He did that. Brought in Clancy to cover for the fact that Reynolds was no longer there and Craigan was nearing the end of his career. Did he do a job? The fact he got a move to a bigger club suggests so. At the same time he brought in Law. A good signing. Hitting a sticky patch in the winter, he brought in Ojaama to give us a boost. That summer loses Craigan, Clancy and Jennings. Brings in Ramsden (like Clancy, unfancied on his arrival) to cover the defence and eventually finds a way to juggle midfield to play without Jennings. Then in January, loses Murphy. Brings in two players (one a loan, one a free transfer) that will make up for the loss of a goalscoring left winger. Point I'm trying to make is that you can argue McCall isn't a man to rebuild a squad but he's been pretty much doing that every window since his arrival. And some of the "quality" that he's struggled to replace are actually signings he has made himself. Was this summer his finest hour transfer wise? Probably not. But looking at his transfer record overall, I reckon he could make a case that it's the first window he's failed in. Do you decide someone's not good enough if they've had five good games and one bad one? I'm only too aware that McCall has flaws as a manager. But to suggest that he's not the man for the job due to a few dodgy months as we try to bed in half a new team seems harsh... 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnstone Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 If someone in the summer said we are going to have Vigurs, Lawson and Faddy in the midfield they would have bit your hand off. Our main issue this season is that these three players have been poor and this means we are struggling to find goals and I am sure McCalls plans were to have these guys supply the stikers. Is that the fault of McCall - I am not sure - confidence can be hard to get out of a player when they are not doing well and nothing is coming off for them. I have no doubt if these three players found last seasons form we would be back to where we were last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 how did vigurs and lawson get this reputation as quality players? They played in a 4 man centre midfield for a county team who even in the first division were known for shitfesting games. Good players don't get stuck in the scottish lower leagues for five years or more like these two duds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fat_tony Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Point I'm trying to make is that you can argue McCall isn't a man to rebuild a squad but he's been pretty much doing that every window since his arrival. And some of the "quality" that he's struggled to replace are actually signings he has made himself. I think the biggest difference between this summer and previous windows was the sheer number of players we lost at the same time. I'd say over the last 10 years or so, the only other people who have had to cope with a rebuilding job of that size have been Terry Butcher and Jim Gannon. McCall has done a great job in replacing players in twos and threes, but having lost more than half our starting XI this summer, it was always going to be a big ask to replace the departures with a similar quality. Vigurs (Law), McManus (Craigan) and Lawson (Jennings?) were all good signings on paper to replace players we'd lost over the previous season or so, and we added Ainsworth (Humphrey) and Anier (Ojamaa) to try and help add some creativity. Too many of those players aren't performing and we quite simply don't have the depth to carry injured/underperforming players. McCall deserves more time to try and build a team. Replacing half your starting XI (and previous losses) in one transfer window is a massive ask, and it'll take time to build the squad he needs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingu Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Just a thought. In the last 18 months we've lost Randolph Hateley Craigan Clancy Humphrey Jennings Law Murphy Higdon Ojaama Add a left back and you have a decent SPL side. I reckon only Hearts have lost the same number of first team players and they're in administration. We've received two transfer fees for those ten players. Bad planning by the club some will say, but how do you sell players when there are no offers on the table? And how do you stop players running down their contracts when they refuse to sign a new one? It's the peril of signing guys who then outperform expectations. Who really thought when we signed Higdon that we'd struggle to keep him beyond his two years? Who thought two years ago that Humphrey would develop into a player that had several offers on the table? Victims of our own success... That is some team, who would surely be in 2nd place right now I think! General point not directed at Melvin, but when you look at the quality we have lost it is very hard to bring back in on the budget we have. Like Melvin says, Lawson would be about the only player that I don't understand why he was brought in. You have Ainsworth for Humphrey, Anier for Ojaama, McManus for Craigan/Ramsden, Sutton for Higdon, Vigurs for Law, Nielson for Randolph. On paper that seems quite adequate, however you have to ask why they are not performing as we hoped. None of the swaps 9apart from McManus maybe) are a trade up. That's ok, because we have a budget, but McCall should have by now settled on the best way to play them and get the best out of a settled 11. I think that is his failure. Either that, or there was a deficiency in actually scouting the players in the first place because he thought they could slot in as replacements for those who have left. Regardless, McCall more than deserves the rest of the season and into next to turn things around. If things are still as turgid, then perhaps we need to explore other options. Bear in mind we are nowhere near the bottom of the table, and if we manage to arrest this slide we are still well in competition for European places. The football hasn't been pretty, there has been no entertainment (and granted that's what a lot of people go for), but a little perspective is needed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnstone Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 how did vigurs and lawson get this reputation as quality players? They played in a 4 man centre midfield for a county team who even in the first division were known for shitfesting games. Good players don't get stuck in the scottish lower leagues for five years or more like these two duds. Nonsense. Vigurs and Lawson both excelled in the SPL last season and scored some total belters. McCall and most Motherwell fans will have looked at that season and 'current form'and thought we are signing two decent players here. Not you though you probably trawl Wikipedia all night looking for flaws in every player from years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingu Posted December 10, 2013 Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 Fat Tony, we've just said pretty much the same thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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