Mccall And The Motherwell Youth System

[Ya Bezzer!]

Here are the players from our youth system that Stuart McCall has introduced and given league game time to since he arrived at the club.

 

start+sub (goal) {total time on pitch}

 

Stuart Carswell 45+29

Zane Francis-Angol 22+21 (2)

Fraser Kerr 14+11

Craig Moore 2+7 (1)

Steve Hetherington 1+2

Gary Smith 0+2 {45 minutes total}

Ross Stewart 0+1 {injury time}

Euan Murray 0+1 {26 minutes total}

Jack Leitch 0+1 {injury time}

Dale Shirkie 0+1 {10 minutes total}

 

In my view giving significant game time to three youth players in three seasons is not good enough and only one of those players would now consider themselves as a first team choice.

 

The club is posting significant loses and has failed to sell on any players for significant transfer fees for some time. Surely a major reason for this is down to our failure to develop quality youth players?

 

Also, at a time when the club is struggling for money we have to look at the significant amount of money being put into youth development from which we see very little return.

 

Sadly, I feel like our youth system, which has always been very good over the 25 years or so I've been coming to Fir Park, has fallen into a state of stagnation at best and perhaps even complete regression.

 

Stuart McCall as a manager doesn't seem to be willing to give youth a chance and the game time given over to youth products during his tenure has been pitiful.

 

Of course, there is the argument that the players aren't good enough to play for the first team but that simply raises the questions 'Why not?' and 'What's the point of having a youth team then?'

 

This neglect of the youth team under McCall, I believe, will have far reaching consequences unless something is done to address it soon.

 

Years ago a young Celtic supporting Hearts player called James McFadden joined our youth system. Partly because it was less traveling for him, but also because we had a good record of giving young players first team experience and it was attractive for a young talent to come to the club.

 

By attracting McFadden to the club we got one of the best players of the last 30 years, made a million pounds and produced a Scotland international.

 

Today, if there was another young talent like James, would you hand on your heart recommend to him to join Motherwell for the betterment of his career? I think any sensible advice would steer him to Dundee Utd or even Kilmarnock who have taken over our mantle as youth developers.

 

The fewer chances we give to youth, the less likely we are to attract better players, as they will simply join big clubs like Celtic or clubs that provide an opening for youth to get game time.

 

In an age where the only future for a club like ours is to develop our own talent I really feel as if the clubs strategy has become a danger to itself and needs to be addressed.

[something else]

I've asked this question especially regarding our under 20 keeper. We spend money and time bringing him through the ranks then when Hollis and Nielsen were injured he brought in Dan from Dundee. Now if he isn't good enough then he should be released pure and simple.

 

Also can we class Angol and Kerr as youth players given a chance? Surely Angol served his time down south and Kerr was only given first team opportunities after he returned. It was another club who really gave him his first team break.

[sbcmfc]

On one hand, McCall does seem to prefer to shuffle the experienced players, putting hammell to right back, play left midfielders at right mid, forwards as wingers....

 

On the other of all the players that have left us recently they have gone down or out the game completely, so maybe they just weren't good enough?

 

It's perhaps a symptom of McCall learning his management from Walter smith, who also appeared to have that tendency to shoe horn in an experienced player rather than gamble on a youngster.

[milo]

With the injury crisis we are apparently suffering from at the moment it would've been the ideal time to introduce a couple of youngsters.

 

I can see the sense in patching Lasley and whoever else is inured up if we can soldier on a nick a point, but would fielding Leitch and/or Murray really have resulted in a much worse score line in the last two games? The results and performances have been pish and the injured players aren't getting a chance to recover.

 

Surely we could at least negate the above to one or the other?

[Onthefringes]

On one hand, McCall does seem to prefer to shuffle the experienced players, putting hammell to right back, play left midfielders at right mid, forwards as wingers....

 

On the other of all the players that have left us recently they have gone down or out the game completely, so maybe they just weren't good enough?

It's perhaps a symptom of McCall learning his management from Walter smith, who also appeared to have that tendency to shoe horn in an experienced player rather than gamble on a youngster.

That's the crux of it...

[MJC_MKI]

Those are pretty shocking and worrying statistics that make pretty damning reading about our youth system and our manager's attitude to it. I attended u-20s matches fairly regularly up until last season and there was some promise there but it's disappointing that nothing has broken through or indeed has been allowed to break through to the first team.

 

I think all of this in some way supports the view that I and others have of McCall, that he is one dimensional and won't look beyond his 'tried and trusted' starting eleven even if that means having to shoehorn players into certain positions ie. Hammell to right back, Faddy on the right side of midfield and will do so even if players aren't fully fit. That for me is a sign of a poor manager and for a club like us who really need to have a good youth system then it's worrying that our manager would rather play unfit players out of position or sign players in emergency loan deals rather than take the opportunity to blood some young players.

 

Friday night and last night are two perfect examples of when the younger players should have been turned to but McCall yet again displayed his one dimensional approach with his selections.

[sbcmfc]

I think most managers are the same though.

 

Guys like McFadden, clarkson, Pearson, lasley, hammell... Were played out of necessity at the time.

[Lobey_Dosser]

In the past, I have been critical of McCall for not giving Lawless et al a shot off the bench when we have been cruising games. His instinct is to favour senior pros.

 

This season however, given our lack of options, I'd like to think he'd give youngsters a chance if they were good enough. I doubt be want to rely on the likes of ZFA and Vigurs. Moore is by far the most exciting prospect but even he looks out his depth at the moment. It would appear that the quality isn't there and therefore more scrutiny is required of the coaching and scouting framework.

 

For a club that budgets on selling a player and finishing top 6, our precarious financial position will be unhinged by one poor season. Despite the rhetoric from the club, there isn't enough investment in youth to protect the future of our club.

 

By and large, McCall and the Board have steered us to a highly enjoyable few years, treated to some relatively quality on the park. However, when all the proceeds of lofty league positions are shelled out on player bonuses, you have to worry about the sustainability of the club.

[cambo97]

Here are the players from our youth system that Stuart McCall has introduced and given league game time to since he arrived at the club.

 

start+sub (goal) {total time on pitch}

 

Stuart Carswell 45+29

Zane Francis-Angol 22+21 (2)

Fraser Kerr 14+11

Craig Moore 2+7 (1)

Steve Hetherington 1+2

Gary Smith 0+2 {45 minutes total}

Ross Stewart 0+1 {injury time}

Euan Murray 0+1 {26 minutes total}

Jack Leitch 0+1 {injury time}

Dale Shirkie 0+1 {10 minutes total}

 

 

I don't think Fraser Kerr should be included in that list as he wasn't promoted direct from the youth system but via Birmingham.

[Onthefringes]

Those are pretty shocking and worrying statistics that make pretty damning reading about our youth system and our manager's attitude to it. I attended u-20s matches fairly regularly up until last season and there was some promise there but it's disappointing that nothing has broken through or indeed has been allowed to break through to the first team.

 

I think all of this in some way supports the view that I and others have of McCall, that he is one dimensional and won't look beyond his 'tried and trusted' starting eleven even if that means having to shoehorn players into certain positions ie. Hammell to right back, Faddy on the right side of midfield and will do so even if players aren't fully fit. That for me is a sign of a poor manager and for a club like us who really need to have a good youth system then it's worrying that our manager would rather play unfit players out of position or sign players in emergency loan deals rather than take the opportunity to blood some young players.

 

Friday night and last night are two perfect examples of when the younger players should have been turned to but McCall yet again displayed his one dimensional approach with his selections.

Ooh! The irony... lost on you.

[Noah Dosser]

Ya Bezzer, excellent post, cap doffed.

 

You omitted Cummins, but that oversight apart, great stats work.

 

Of these players Cummins, ZFA and Kerr came or returned from English teams. The 1st two mentioned being released.

 

Hetherington was formerly at Rangers, also released and even Carswell and Moore had been at Celtc and Hertz respectively when young.

 

There is to me an obvious lack of faith in young homegrown players shown by SM. I also get the impression he would rather put an experienced pro on the pitch when the team is pumping someone to ensure he doesn't get grief about bonuses etc, rather than blooding a young un.

 

Big question is, are the likes of Leitch, Moore, Murray and Erwin( injury at present accepted) good enough ?

 

No-one really knows because they do not get a sniff. (Moore apart this season)

 

Next point; pro football is an unforgiving occupation and if the coaching staff don't trust/ rate the youth then get rid of them.

 

Not easy in 'Well's situation but I look at other SPFL teams and when they have bitten the bullet and given the up and coming players a chance

they have not been let down too often.

 

I have seen more U19 and U20 matches than I care to remember and IMHO the 4 players I have named are as good as anyone of a similar age in the SPFL, Gauld at Dundee Utd aside.

 

Another big problem is that the club could end up getting no money for these players should they leave on freedom of contract ( perhaps someone with a better grasp of the convoluted compensation criteria can advise) thus costing the club money re their development. I'm sure I saw somewhere Murray, for example, is out of contract this summer, and really who could blame him if he walked?

 

The team needs freshened up and the likes of ZFA and Carswell rested, will SM and KB do this? I for one won't hold my breath.

 

Given the current injury plight I can see Gordon Marshall in goals, Kenny Black at left back and a certain Stuart McCall in midfield for the Hertz game.

[Yabba's Turd]

I've been looking at our team for the past few years and the lack of "our" youth breaking through is obvious.

 

McCart leaving didn't help.

[Onthefringes]

I've been looking at our team for the past few years and the lack of "our" youth breaking through is obvious.

 

McCart leaving didn't help.

Various moves at differing levels will have affected stability, latest changes will again take time to bear fruit.

 

Had heard Stuart Ogilvie has returned to the club in a scouting role, decent pedigree by all accounts and highly rated in those circles, perhaps Noah Dosser can confirm?

 

Worryingly, Scott Leitch doesn't seem to be covering himself in glory given behaviour from leadership positions to players and parents in recent months. All be it, information was offered by parents who were on the receiving end of defeat, I'll reserve judgement till I see the nephew play against Motherwell in the coming weeks.

[weeyin]

Given the success McCall has had by adopting the strategies he's adopted, there is no way he was going to start throwing in youngsters unless his hand was forced. That's just the way it is in the modern game - you aren't going to change a winning team unless you absolutely have to.

 

The irony being that if we were struggling around 6th or 7th every season, there would be more flexibility to experiment with the fringe players.

 

Even in this comparatively unsettled and transitional season we are sitting 3rd in the league and challenging for a Euro spot again.

 

However, we have reached the stage where we are running out of fit bodies to put on the field, and I'd be happy to see 2 or 3 debutantes take a starting position for the next game. Even if they only get an hour - anything we can do to give the injured lads a break will benefit us in the run in.

 

It's unusual these days for someone to come through the ranks of 7 year olds all the way to the first team, so the fact that ZFA, Kerr etc. weren't permanent fixtures doesn't bother me. They got their chance in in our youth set up and were promoted to first team duties. I'm OK with that.

[Noah Dosser]

Given the success McCall has had by adopting the strategies he's adopted, there is no way he was going to start throwing in youngsters unless his hand was forced. That's just the way it is in the modern game - you aren't going to change a winning team unless you absolutely have to.

 

The irony being that if we were struggling around 6th or 7th every season, there would be more flexibility to experiment with the fringe players.

 

Even in this comparatively unsettled and transitional season we are sitting 3rd in the league and challenging for a Euro spot again.

 

However, we have reached the stage where we are running out of fit bodies to put on the field, and I'd be happy to see 2 or 3 debutantes take a starting position for the next game. Even if they only get an hour - anything we can do to give the injured lads a break will benefit us in the run in.

 

It's unusual these days for someone to come through the ranks of 7 year olds all the way to the first team, so the fact that ZFA, Kerr etc. weren't permanent fixtures doesn't bother me. They got their chance in in our youth set up and were promoted to first team duties. I'm OK with that.

 

Wee point here, these guys would be fine if they were setting the heather on fire, but in fairness they aren't.

 

I am well aware not many come through from a young age but what chance do the ones that do have if players who have been released by other teams, as pro's I might add, come in and have the gaffer's favour because as is human nature he was party to bringing them in ?

 

SM has done well, as I've said and his record speaks for itself, but juggling players around playing them out of position and not trusting the youths is his achilles heel.

 

He has been lucky, particularly last season when Randolph, Hutchy, Las and Higdon could basically do no wrong and as importantly stayed fit .

 

This term like it or not he has come up short against the other 'top 6' clubs.

 

Still, all in all, the team mainly punches above its weight and continues to confound expectation.

[Noah Dosser]

Various moves at differing levels will have affected stability, latest changes will again take time to bear fruit.

 

Had heard Stuart Ogilvie has returned to the club in a scouting role, decent pedigree by all accounts and highly rated in those circles, perhaps Noah Dosser can confirm?

 

Worryingly, Scott Leitch doesn't seem to be covering himself in glory given behaviour from leadership positions to players and parents in recent months. All be it, information was offered by parents who were on the receiving end of defeat, I'll reserve judgement till I see the nephew play against Motherwell in the coming weeks.

 

OTF, sorry mate haven't heard about S. Ogilvie as I'm dawnn sawff at the moment and haven't been to any 20's games recently to get the goss.

 

The guy does have a good record as you say, but if I recall maybe not best of pals with a certain current Academy Director.

[Ya Bezzer!]

You omitted Cummins, but that oversight apart, great stats work.

 

I omitted Cummins but deliberately so as he had already played first team football before McCall was appointed.

 

I also removed Meechan and Pollock from the list as they also fell into that category.

[Noah Dosser]

I omitted Cummins but deliberately so as he had already played first team football before McCall was appointed.

 

I also removed Meechan and Pollock from the list as they also fell into that category.

 

Apologies mate, thought his first game was V Aberdeen under McCall.

 

Nae quibble re other 2

[Ya Bezzer!]

Given the success McCall has had by adopting the strategies he's adopted, there is no way he was going to start throwing in youngsters unless his hand was forced. That's just the way it is in the modern game - you aren't going to change a winning team unless you absolutely have to.

 

I don't really agree with this. A winning team is exactly the environment for young players to be introduced. You don't throw them in when you are in a mire.

 

Aberdeen had four youth products in the side at the weekend, most of whom are regulars - Andrew Considine, Joe Shaughnessy, Peter Pawlett and Nicky Low. Ryan Jack would have almost certainly played if he hadn't been injured to make it five.

 

They have also given game time to Clark Robertson 4+3, Cammy Smith 5+3, Craig Storie 0+1 and Craig Murray 0+2 this season to add four more players to the five who have been regulars and they have a couple of other young players than haven't played this season but have first team experience (Jamie Masson, Declan McManus).

 

We have lost superb opportunities to blood young players over the past couple of seasons and I fear we will count the cost in the future.

[steelboy]

the decline obviously came on gordon young's watch.

 

the year he gave halsman, innes, howarth and others senior contracts although their was no chance of them making the first team showed he didn't have a clue and he would have been moved on by the club if it wasn't for his contract. from 90, 91, 92 and 93 boys we have carswell to show for it.

 

hopefully leitch will do a better job.

[WishyWell]

As the parent of a boy in the Youth System who has been there since Chris McCart's time, I can say I'm pleased with the way things are starting to go at the moment. Certainly, in WishyWell Junior's team, a more direct, positive style of play is bringing on the overall standard of the team, and their two new coaches seem knowledgeable and keen to teach.

 

Various moves at differing levels will have affected stability, latest changes will again take time to bear fruit.

 

Agreed.

 

Had heard Stuart Ogilvie has returned to the club in a scouting role, decent pedigree by all accounts and highly rated in those circles, perhaps Noah Dosser can confirm?

 

He was at Braidhurst last week with a Motherwell jacket on, so it seems true. A great move to get him back, in my opinion.

 

 

Worryingly, Scott Leitch doesn't seem to be covering himself in glory given behaviour from leadership positions to players and parents in recent months. All be it, information was offered by parents who were on the receiving end of defeat, I'll reserve judgement till I see the nephew play against Motherwell in the coming weeks.

 

I'm surprised at this, and not surprised, if you see what I mean.

 

I'm surprised at the criticism of Scott. He is a passionate guy who has very strong ideas on how the game should be played and the level of effort he expects from boys in applying in a game what they have been taught at training, but I haven't found him to be unfair in what he says, and I feel he is starting the Academy along a route that will bring success in time. Sometimes honesty can be brutal, but if we are saying we want an Academy that produces players capable of playing in as tough an environment as first-team football, the boys have to learn to develop a thick skin, listen to what they are being told and try to take it on board and see how they can use it to sort what they, or their team, are doing wrong. I always told my boy that it's not necessarily a bad thing to be shouted at - if they didn't rate you, they wouldn't waste the time shouting at you! Not always easy to take when you're a young boy, I know, but it's part of the learning process if they want to survive later on at adult level.

 

Where I'm not surprised is that parents are not happy - it is a difficult, agonising and paraniod existence being a parent of a boy in a Pro-Youth Academy, and it is hard to curb your protective urges when your wee boy (he's always your "wee boy", even when he's towering over you!) is being shouted at, criticised or not getting game time - believe me, I have been there many times, with the terror building up every six months as you approach the night when you are told if your son is being kept on or released. Emotions for Pro-Youth parents swing wildly but they usually do so according to whether their boy is getting game time or not, and whether the coach praises them or criticises them, so I have learnt (sometimes the hard way!) to take parents' complaints with a pinch of salt, keep my mouth shut when it's my boy getting it, and tell him to keep his head down and work his socks off and wait for things to come round better again.

[Well 4 Europe]

I omitted Cummins but deliberately so as he had already played first team football before McCall was appointed.

 

I also removed Meechan and Pollock from the list as they also fell into that category.

Apologies mate, thought his first game was V Aberdeen under McCall.

 

Cummins debut was against Aberdeen and it was under McCall. Craigan. Clancy and Hutchinson were all out and Cummins partnered Page in defence as we won 1-0.

 

So he should be added to the list.

[steelboy]

Cummins debut was against Aberdeen and it was under McCall. Craigan. Clancy and Hutchinson were all out and Cummins partnered Page in defence as we won 1-0.

 

So he should be added to the list.

 

cummins is hardly a ringing endorsement. can't get a game for dundee and taking a wage next season.

 

expect to see adam and bob selling 50/50 tickets next season.

[Lobey_Dosser]

cummins is hardly a ringing endorsement. can't get a game for dundee and taking a wage next season.

 

expect to see adam and bob selling 50/50 tickets next season.

 

Wasn't sure whether or not Cummins was capable of making the grade but signing McManus has been hugely detrimental to the most important year of development for a youngster that we opted to reward and invest in.

[Well 4 Europe]

cummins is hardly a ringing endorsement. can't get a game for dundee and taking a wage next season.

 

expect to see adam and bob selling 50/50 tickets next season.

 

I never said he was! However he does fit the criteria of the OP.

 

Anyway, I thought you were fan of Cummins?