Mccall And The Motherwell Youth System

[steelboy]

i liked cummins but having seen his comments on twitter and having seen him attempt to move this season he has some sort of back issue which is making him even slower than he was previously.

[claretband]

Should Bob McHugh not be included in this list?

[steelman1991]

As the parent of a boy ......

 

Excellent post WishyWell.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Yabba's Turd

[Onthefringes]

As the parent of a boy

Understand and can empathise with the viewpoint, my point was made from opinion of parents who's kids are involved at opposing teams rather than those attached to Motherwell and, as I said, I'll reserve judgement till I see for myself.

 

Got the impression under the car salesman that too many kids thought they had made the big time by just being involved at academy level and/or securing places in a flawed elite system. If Scott Leitch is imposing a harder edge, that's his prerogative. Leading to better prepared prospects? I'm all for it and kudos to him. He certainly hasn't offered an attitude not becoming his position anytime I've spoken to him.

[weeyin]

I don't really agree with this. A winning team is exactly the environment for young players to be introduced. You don't throw them in when you are in a mire.

 

Maybe in some teams - not ours. Just look at the stick guys like Higdon had to take, and he was successful. Imagine what would be dished out to some 18 yr old performing like an inconsistent youngster.

 

Aberdeen had four youth products in the side at the weekend, most of whom are regulars - Andrew Considine, Joe Shaughnessy, Peter Pawlett and Nicky Low. Ryan Jack would have almost certainly played if he hadn't been injured to make it five.

 

Were those guys that just came in or were blooded when Aberdeen were mid-table? (I'm sure Considine and Pawlett at least were playing when Aberdeen were struggling, but I could be wrong).

[Welldaft Mk1]

I would agree with that Steel boy and I am quite sure it was not lost on Leanne and the Board. McCall is not in charge of youth development and we have woefully under performed here in recent years.

 

I like most would like to have seen more youth players blooded in the 1st team, but it is hard to argue with McCalls record in the league given our resources.

[Noah Dosser]

I would agree with that Steel boy and I am quite sure it was not lost on Leanne and the Board. McCall is not in charge of youth development and we have woefully under performed here in recent years.

 

I like most would like to have seen more youth players blooded in the 1st team, but it is hard to argue with McCalls record in the league given our resources.

 

You are of course correct re SM not being in charge of youth development, however he does have a big say in who is signed or retained as a professional at the club.

[Well Up For It!]

It's all well and good saying "play the young boys" and I for one would like to see them given more of a chance!

 

But, I'm afraid a club like ours must finish as high up the table as possible to make ends meet and that puts pressure on the manager to get results or risk losing a whole team due to lack of funds. Blooding youngsters is a luxury that we just don't have at this moment, and McCall persists with the experienced players to ensure we get as high a finish as possible.

[Shaka]

Thats a dangerous game to play. We now have an aging team with Ramsden,Hammell,McManus, Lasley,Lawson,Ainsworth,Faddy,Sutton all 30 or more. We need a balance and we need saleable assets and for that we NEED to develop our kids.

[Kmcalpin]

Without doubt our youth system hasn't been producing the goods these last few years. Due to the long term nature of this aspect of a football club, we won't know if we've turned it around for a year or two. I really hope we have reversed the decline.

 

Out of interest I thought I'd try to find out why Dundee United seem to be so successful at bringing through young players. Its very hard to know of course and it instigated a lot of lunchtime debate in our office today. One thing is crystal clear. United spend a lot of cash on their youth system but no-one is sure just how its spent. I always thought that it was down to excellent scouts and coaches - an ability to pick up and retain these guys for decade after decade. That might be true in part but theres far more to it than that.

 

Going through United's current squad, I was surprised to find very few of their starlets actually came right through their youth ranks....maybe 10% or so. That was one my main misconceptions put to bed. 90% or so came from other clubs' youth systems in their mid/late teens. Brechin City (2), Dundee, Falkirk, and Queens Park (2). Also most of their youths come from West/Central Scotland...bang went my theory that Tayside produced many of this country's great young players.

 

Given this, we asked ourselves why a 14/15/16/17/18 year old lad would move away from home to Tayside when they could play for another senior club like Well, Killie, Partick, or St Mirren much nearer home. Is it United's reputation? Up to a point but that still doesn't explain why they would do it.

 

It became obvious that United poach other clubs' young talent or potential signing targets.

 

A related question - how do United manage to retain these young lads on long contracts?

 

How? We had our own theory but I'd like to hear your views especially if you know how youth football works.

[superward]

Thats a dangerous game to play. We now have an aging team with Ramsden,Hammell,McManus, Lasley,Lawson,Ainsworth,Faddy,Sutton all 30 or more. We need a balance and we need saleable assets and for that we NEED to develop our kids.

 

I do agree we need to develop kids but Ainsworth is 26 and Sutton just turned 30. Needs to be a mix of age and experience I reckon. 4 or 5 older heads with youth around them would fine for me.

[superward]

Without doubt our youth system hasn't been producing the goods these last few years. Due to the long term nature of this aspect of a football club, we won't know if we've turned it around for a year or two. I really hope we have reversed the decline.

 

Out of interest I thought I'd try to find out why Dundee United seem to be so successful at bringing through young players. Its very hard to know of course and it instigated a lot of lunchtime debate in our office today. One thing is crystal clear. United spend a lot of cash on their youth system but no-one is sure just how its spent. I always thought that it was down to excellent scouts and coaches - an ability to pick up and retain these guys for decade after decade. That might be true in part but theres far more to it than that.

 

Going through United's current squad, I was surprised to find very few of their starlets actually came right through their youth ranks....maybe 10% or so. That was one my main misconceptions put to bed. 90% or so came from other clubs' youth systems in their mid/late teens. Brechin City (2), Dundee, Falkirk, and Queens Park (2). Also most of their youths come from West/Central Scotland...bang went my theory that Tayside produced many of this country's great young players.

 

Given this, we asked ourselves why a 14/15/16/17/18 year old lad would move away from home to Tayside when they could play for another senior club like Well, Killie, Partick, or St Mirren much nearer home. Is it United's reputation? Up to appoint but that still doesn't explain why they would do it.

 

It became obvious that United poach other clubs' young talent or potential signing targets.

 

A related question - how do United manage to retain these young lads on long contracts?

 

How? We had our own theory but I'd like to hear your views especially if you know how youth football works.

 

Back when I was at high school (holy cross, hamilton) one of the principle teachers was a dundee utd youth scout. Due to that there were a lot of boys went for trials and played for them. So that may have taken them from us. That said McManus, Brian Dempsoe, David Clarkson and John Crawley were all in my year or below and didnt go there so maybe not actually...

[Suprawell]

Quite simply one of the best posts I have ever read on here. It's not just McCall but the directors and backroom staff that need a good shake too when it comes to the whole youth system.

 

 

 

 

Here are the players from our youth system that Stuart McCall has introduced and given league game time to since he arrived at the club.

 

start+sub (goal) {total time on pitch}

 

Stuart Carswell 45+29

Zane Francis-Angol 22+21 (2)

Fraser Kerr 14+11

Craig Moore 2+7 (1)

Steve Hetherington 1+2

Gary Smith 0+2 {45 minutes total}

Ross Stewart 0+1 {injury time}

Euan Murray 0+1 {26 minutes total}

Jack Leitch 0+1 {injury time}

Dale Shirkie 0+1 {10 minutes total}

 

In my view giving significant game time to three youth players in three seasons is not good enough and only one of those players would now consider themselves as a first team choice.

 

The club is posting significant loses and has failed to sell on any players for significant transfer fees for some time. Surely a major reason for this is down to our failure to develop quality youth players?

 

Also, at a time when the club is struggling for money we have to look at the significant amount of money being put into youth development from which we see very little return.

 

Sadly, I feel like our youth system, which has always been very good over the 25 years or so I've been coming to Fir Park, has fallen into a state of stagnation at best and perhaps even complete regression.

 

Stuart McCall as a manager doesn't seem to be willing to give youth a chance and the game time given over to youth products during his tenure has been pitiful.

 

Of course, there is the argument that the players aren't good enough to play for the first team but that simply raises the questions 'Why not?' and 'What's the point of having a youth team then?'

 

This neglect of the youth team under McCall, I believe, will have far reaching consequences unless something is done to address it soon.

 

Years ago a young Celtic supporting Hearts player called James McFadden joined our youth system. Partly because it was less traveling for him, but also because we had a good record of giving young players first team experience and it was attractive for a young talent to come to the club.

 

By attracting McFadden to the club we got one of the best players of the last 30 years, made a million pounds and produced a Scotland international.

 

Today, if there was another young talent like James, would you hand on your heart recommend to him to join Motherwell for the betterment of his career? I think any sensible advice would steer him to Dundee Utd or even Kilmarnock who have taken over our mantle as youth developers.

 

The fewer chances we give to youth, the less likely we are to attract better players, as they will simply join big clubs like Celtic or clubs that provide an opening for youth to get game time.

 

In an age where the only future for a club like ours is to develop our own talent I really feel as if the clubs strategy has become a danger to itself and needs to be addressed.

 

 

 

 

 

[Onthefringes]

Now, just a thought... Given the current clamour to give some of our younger players game time - why then some notable posters on this very thread bemoaned the fact youngsters were introduced as certain favourites and senior members of the squad couldn't cut it under the fabled Jim Gannon?

 

Man was a visionary I tells thee

[Steve Diggle]

I think an element being overlooked here (or maybe not) is the patience and perseverance that is required for this to work effectively. I think this is one ad a few significant areas where we fall behind the likes of Dundee Utd.

 

I always go back to Phil. In his first game in a well shirt he got an absolute roasting. An experienced pro in Kenny McDowall (cunt) outmuscled him at every turn. Phil had a mare. It wasn't long though before he was back in.

One of my fondest memories of that time was hearing Davie Cooper on Phil's shoulder at every turn encouraging, advising, pushing - an absolute pleasure to witness.

 

My point, whil noting that not all of our youth will be in the Phil mode, is that playing well in the unders is 25% of the journey. The development into a first team regular unless exceptional happens over time in a gradual manner WITHIN the first team. With management and supporters alike having to be patient in the process.

 

On saying that and on a personal note. I've been disappointed in the level of player coming through vs 10-15 years ago. I've also been puzzled in who we've let go and who we've kept. I liked the look of Hetherington for instance - didn't think he did anything wrong in a first team shirt yet - punted. (And probably someone we could have used to rest Lasley or Carswell)

 

As others have mentioned though that's maybe why we're posting pish on the net instead of running a fitba team.

 

Bottom line though is that our youth system and it's relationship with our first team is a wee bit on the rocks of late.

[Wellfan1984]

I think this is one ad a few significant areas where we fall behind the likes of Dundee Utd.

 

The thing we fall behind United at is not being able to poach the better local youth from other Pro-Teams. Brechin for one have been absolutely raped by United over the years.

 

Not forgetting the disgusting manner how they have dealt with Queen's Park for the likes of Robertson, Douglas and Connolly.

[Shaka]

 

Not forgetting the disgusting manner how they have dealt with Queen's Park for the likes of Robertson, Douglas and Connolly.

 

what disgusting way?

[steelboy]

what disgusting way?

 

Queen's Park are amatuers but they think that dundee united should pay them to employ boys who have formerly played for their club.

[Wellfan1984]

what disgusting way?

 

Refusal to pay a Development Fee

 

Internationally Amatuer clubs are protected the same way a club like Motherwell is protected. If say a club down south or in mainland Europe wanted one of our youths they'd have to pay a fee. It is the same with protected registered Amatuer clubs too (Amatuer Development Contracts are big in France).

 

Because they didn't move "abroad" though, and due to a loophole in the SFA procedure (which covers Queen's Park, Saturday Amatuers and Sunday Amatuers) clubs in Scotland can sign players for nothing. All clubs in the past though have agreed to pay a "fair price" for Queen's Park youths - even Dundee United - before they pulled out to save themselves a few grand.

[Kmcalpin]

Now I don't pretend to know how our youth football set up works in this country but the conclusion we came to was that United identify the best young players (not snapped up by the Gruesome twosome) pay them or their parents a nice fat signing on fee and lure them to Tannadice through very well paid scouts. They're then given admittedly good training and the best of the bunch are given very lucrative long term deals. They're then sold on for a nice fee. Hey presto - a great youth set up!

 

Given that theres a fair few posters on here that seem to know a lot about youth football - any views? Am I not far off the mark or totally way off beam?

 

Irrespective of the details, what is becoming clear is that United are not running some kind of philanthropic youth set up.

[Tweed]

Now, just a thought... Given the current clamour to give some of our younger players game time - why then some notable posters on this very thread bemoaned the fact youngsters were introduced as certain favourites and senior members of the squad couldn't cut it under the fabled Jim Gannon?

 

Man was a visionary I tells thee

 

I think there is a difference though. Gannon was playing kids who were not ready, (i.e. Jamie Pollock v Celtic) whilst leaving available, fit seasoned pros on the bench. It was mental.

 

McCall is now playing half fit players like Lasley v United or players massively out of position like Hammell v United whilst leaving kids who play in these positions in a pretty successful u20 team sitting on the bench or in the stand.

 

I would never never suggest he should be playing Murray instead of Ramsden or Thomas instead of Lasley if they are all 100% fit but when that isn't the case McCall seems to go for the half fit, falling over, square peg in the round hole and it generally doesn't work.

 

 

 

[mfc88]

I think there is a difference though. Gannon was playing kids who were not ready, (i.e. Jamie Pollock v Celtic) whilst leaving available, fit seasoned pros on the bench. It was mental.

 

McCall is now playing half fit players like Lasley v United or players massively out of position like Hammell v United whilst leaving kids who play in these positions in a pretty successful u20 team sitting on the bench or in the stand.

 

I would never never suggest he should be playing Murray instead of Ramsden or Thomas instead of Lasley if they are all 100% fit but when that isn't the case McCall seems to go for the half fit, falling over, square peg in the round hole and it generally doesn't work.

 

Was about to post pretty much this. Bang on.

 

If it doesn't work out playing a youth player over a half fit player then at least you can understand why the change was made. Hard to justify playing a half fit team when it doesnt pay off.

[Frazzie]

Let's make a big list of all the players who have come through our ranks, not got their chance and then succeeded at a comparable elsewhere. I'll start:

 

Erm....

[CoF]

Let's make a big list of all the players who have come through our ranks, not got their chance and then succeeded at a comparable elsewhere. I'll start:

 

Erm....

 

A fair point.

 

Only one I can think of recently is Lawless. While he's not quite playing at a comparable level, having him on board could have given us a bit more flexibility this season.

[Dr.Pepper]

Didn't we get Steven Saunders from Queens Park. Did we pay a fee for him?