MelvinBragg Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 The match thread from last night has (rightly) descended into a discussion of the problems we currently face and what we do about it. But serious debate there getting mixed in with justifiable anger. What happened last night happened. As the topic says where do we go from here? Fitness. Or stamina. Or both. Seems to have been an issue for the last year. Clearly need to address it and now we only have a couple of weeks to the start of the season, I don’t know how much improvement we can make right away. Tied in with this, the age of our key players. Back four are all 28 or older. One of the main reasons for my frustration at the use of Kerr in right midfield (aside from the fact it doesn't work) is the fact we should be trying to develop him to replace Ramsden or McManus. Playing him out of position doesn't do this. Lasley (I could understand a one year deal but two?!?) isn't getting any younger. How much game time are Leitch and Carswell going to get if it means dropping the captain? Sutton had a fantastic season but again not getting any younger. Erwin needs a chance. If we keep on with the old faithful, we're going to come to a point where we need to replace four or five of them at once and none of our young players will have developed enough to be ready for the step up. Psychology of our team. Seems to me we can't deal with games where we're heavy favourites or where there's a lot riding on it. Which seems strange given what I've just said about the age of our team. Experience but not the right mentality? Something the coaching staff need to look at. Anyone else brought in will need to be a strong character, see if it can rub off, at least on the young players? Was that not what McManus coming in was supposed to be about? That's just a couple for starters... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postiejim Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Time for a change of gaffer McCall for all his success is causing big problems for the club financially with his cup failures and non youth policy. Administration for all our success is getting closer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Time for a change of gaffer McCall for all his success is causing big problems for the club financially with his cup failures and non youth policy. Administration for all our success is getting closer. Away you go! A change of gaffer?!? If it wasn't for that gaffer there's a good chance we wouldn't even have had a crack at Europe! We'll do what we always do, we'll get back down to business and get ready for the domestic season starting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC_MKI Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Where do we go from here? Quite simply we as a club need to grow a set and address this pathetic losers mentality that we are riddled with from top to bottom. Debacles like last night are continually shrugged off with 'we ain't Barcelona, we're punching waaaay above our weight' all while such results, along with the cup failures are financially damaging us and serious questions should be being asked of the manager, players, preparation tactics and fitness. Anticipate the standard McCall apology in the next 24 to 48 hours along with vows to learn lessons and put it right in the cup....then we'll get Lasley and Hammell etc tweeting about their lunch at Nandos and their round of golf afterwards, cue everyone thinking 'what a great bunch of lads our boys are' ........repeat the same process after we get pumped out of the league cup at the first hurdle by East Fife or whoever. As someone said in the other thread, the players must love playing at Motherwell because they get such an easy ride of it, from both the club and the support and there is no expectation or desire to go that bit further and achieve something. I hate with a passion the 'We are all Stuart McCall' line but it's probably fairly accurate because our lack of expectation as a club suits him down to the ground. If he ever gets a move to a bigger club he will flop spectacularly because he is no tactical genius and is in fact a poor manager but he gets away with it here because our expectation levels are non existent. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Through the league positions like a stone with the current squad and approach is the short answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoshi-1991 Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 When fans watching the game through a twitter feed can say at 2-1 up that we are going to loose, and call it right, there is an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvinBragg Posted July 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Away you go! A change of gaffer?!? If it wasn't for that gaffer there's a good chance we wouldn't even have had a crack at Europe! We'll do what we always do, we'll get back down to business and get ready for the domestic season starting. While I agree that binning McCall is not the answer, neither is writing it off as one of those things. Three of the goals we conceded were penalties? Why were we defending so deep that we were in a position to concede three (defending higher up the park, Lasley's handball is a free kick not a penalty)? And yes I'm aware one of them was won on a counter attack but again surely calls into question our defensive set up. I don't believe it's all doom and gloom but there are issues and frankly to ignore them is naive at best... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Jules Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 The recent "golden era" of league success had to come to an end at some point but now its here its still a pretty hard kick to the baws. With Aberdeen and United spending more dosh again this year its hard to see us competing with them sadly, its whether we can get our finger out and actually claim a top 6 spot which is not guaranteed especially the way things have been so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 The last two really good footballers our club produced were Jamie Murphy and Shaun Hutchinson. Both those players made their debuts under Mark McGhee. That is simply not good enough. Both those players contributed to a fairly successful time in the clubs history but at the end of it I think we got something like £150,000 for Murphy and nothing for Hutchinson. Again, that is simply not good enough either. We do not produced enough good footballers and when we do they go for nothing. If we do not remedy that I doubt the club has a viable future on diminishing attendances. The financial situation at the club has to be sorted out. We cannot continue to lose 6 six sums every season, that way lies extinction. But more short term, it means we are going into seasons with thread bare 20 man squads, players on short term deals and we are releasing releasing youth players right, left and centre that may have done a job for us because if they haven't made the first team by 19 we can't afford to keep them any longer. But what really concerns me more than most is this; if the level of disillusionment at the club is this high now, what happens if we drop down the league to a 7th or 8th level team or worse? We finished 2nd last season and the crowds went down. It doesn't bare thinking about. Unless me maintain a level of success that is unparalleled in the clubs history and almost certainly unrealistic to expect you fear some kind of death spiral. We have serious individual problems as a club. But we are also part of the morass that is Scottish football and that is out of our control as a single club. It's not anyone at Motherwell's fault that the league doesn't have a sponsor or that the TV deal is derisory or that Scottish football in general is the poor man's version of just about any comparable league in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 While I agree that binning McCall is not the answer, neither is writing it off as one of those things. Three of the goals we conceded were penalties? Why were we defending so deep that we were in a position to concede three (defending higher up the park, Lasley's handball is a free kick not a penalty)? And yes I'm aware one of them was won on a counter attack but again surely calls into question our defensive set up. I don't believe it's all doom and gloom but there are issues and frankly to ignore them is naive at best... I just think it's maybe a better idea to judge our performances once we've got a few more competitive games under our belt. If these issues are still prevalent at that point then I'll start to worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 But more short term, it means we are going into seasons with thread bare 20 man squads, players on short term deals and we are releasing releasing youth players right, left and centre that may have done a job for us because if they haven't made the first team by 19 we can't afford to keep them any longer. St Johnstone seem to be doing ok on a more limited budget. The problem with youth systems is that you have to take long time horizons, unless you're like Dundee United. The success or otherwise of our current set up won't become evident for another 4/5/6 years. You mentioned Mark McGhee - any benefit he reaped was based on the work of his predecessors. We're now reaping the rewards of his input. Of the young players we have released how many have gone onto better things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
something else Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Spot on as usual MJC. Getting the usual idiots already saying 'but we finished 2nd', blah blah blah. Everything from our scouting system to our training methods need a total overhaul. We signed 2 players this summer, one had played with us before, the other is an ex players brother. Typical Mccall signings. Hammell and lasley are finished and yet they are only weeks into 2 year deals. I bet come next summer vigurs still hasnt been offered a new deal and is allowed to walk away for free. Our system in games is also so fuckin predictable. Come the hour mark everybody in the ground knows ainsworth is gonnae be hooked and Kerr will come on. Mccall needs to be held accountable for the run of poor games against teams we should be easily beating but I won't hold my breath. Honestly so disheartened with things now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Spot on as usual MJC. Getting the usual idiots already saying 'but we finished 2nd', blah blah blah. Finishing second means nothing to you, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
something else Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Yeah but I prefer to think of the present and the future. How long you want to live off finishing 2nd for? Put it this way, all the hard work of last season has already been a waste of time. Out of Europe in July. Magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 St Johnstone seem to be doing ok on a more limited budget. The problem with youth systems is that you have to take long time horizons, unless you're like Dundee United. The success or otherwise of our current set up won't become evident for another 4/5/6 years. You mentioned Mark McGhee - any benefit he reaped was based on the work of his predecessors. We're now reaping the rewards of his input. Of the young players we have released how many have gone onto better things? We have a youth system but we more or less ignore it. It costs the club a fortune by the way for virtually no return. The whole "how many have gone on to better things" argument is hokum. You know very well that a player that does well at one club doesn't do well at the next club, or a player that is rejected by one club can easily fall out the game or have his confidence as a footballer shattered. There is no consistent value to a players worth or performance and it depends entirely on a huge range of different circumstances that is virtually impossible to determine. If we had never signed Dougie Arnott, and Arnott kicked around the club for 3 or 4 years without doing much remember, he may well have trundled around in footballing obscurity all his career. Instead he became a hero and a cup winner but it may well have turned out differently. Players have a potential and unless you give them that chance to show that potential you'll never get it out of them. By the way Lee Erwin is a highly rated 20 year old footballer at our club and last week was the first time some of our support had even seen him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yassin Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 I don't think their will be much soul searching or big changes after this game - there never is. We'll probably finish 4th this season, get knocked out the cups early, possibly sneak into Europe again (and appear absolutely toothless again) before losing our best players on a free. It's the Motherwell way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Yeah but I prefer to think of the present and the future. How long you want to live off finishing 2nd for? Put it this way, all the hard work of last season has already been a waste of time. Out of Europe in July. Magic. How long do I want to live off finishing second for? At least until the season immediately after starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 I don't think we'll finish as high as 4th. Agree with the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Jules Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 I just want the season to start now and try to forget that result. The first game of the season will be a big indicator to where this team is in terms of ability etc. in my opinion St Mirren are the worst team in the league ( got money on them to finish bottom ) they play a pretty poor style of football which mainly involves hoofing long high balls to Thompson and feeding off the scraps and they're not even very good at that, If that defence of ours can't handle that simple type of attacking football then we are in big trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJC_MKI Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 I don't think their will be much soul searching or big changes after this game - there never is. We'll probably finish 4th this season, get knocked out the cups early, possibly sneak into Europe again (and appear absolutely toothless again) before losing our best players on a free. It's the Motherwell way. It's been the Motherwell way over the past few seasons alright but there is going to come a time sooner or later when our constant cup failures resulting in budgets being cut and players lost is going to catch up with us. For all it was great to finish second last season we didn't half carry some luck especially in the run in. The games against St.Johnstone, Inverness, Ross County etc we were out on our feet after an hour and just managed to cling on for the win. And that managed to compensate for us doing likewise against Hibs and St.Mirren where we surrendered 2-0 leads. Our fitness is clearly an issue and yet again last night and last week we ran out of steam and paid for it, all while McCall inexplicably tried to defend a narrow lead when it is patently clear we are simply not capable of doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazles ring piece Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Face facts, L.D. bailed out due to lack of finances and the impeding slippery slope....and The WS was only dreamt up when no one was at hand to dip into their personal coffers. Fan ownership my AR$E. Board room buttock clenching will have gone into overdrive after they've no doubt been given assurances about getting the job done and it'll be "all right on the night." Well it didn't!!!! This was a monument F....UP. All the previous concerns raised on these boards....came to fruition. Surprise....surprise! Don't despair, at least we can fall back on an experienced board room that will steady the ship. F..................CK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sup3rw3ll Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Where do we go from here? Quite simply we as a club need to grow a set and address this pathetic losers mentality that we are riddled with from top to bottom. Debacles like last night are continually shrugged off with 'we ain't Barcelona, we're punching waaaay above our weight' all while such results, along with the cup failures are financially damaging us and serious questions should be being asked of the manager, players, preparation tactics and fitness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postiejim Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Under McCall we have no long term plan . And off the park Im beginning tae wonder what sort of plans are in place ,everything at firpark is a short term solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
something else Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 The only long term plan is.handing out 2 year deals to a guy approaching 35 and a 32 year old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAM Posted July 25, 2014 Report Share Posted July 25, 2014 Reading this board this morning has not been enjoyable... I agree with most of what has been said in terms of this is wrong on the park and that is wrong off the park, but where is anyone offering solutions? And I mean realistic ones - getting rid of McCall isn't one! What model should we be looking at? How should we re-structure off the park in terms of admin, youth, scouting, etc - is there another club out there that we can learn from? This is not a new thing, we've been best of the rest for 3 years and yet crowds continue to be poor meaning revenue coming in is poor, so what is the answer? We'd all love to see more youth coming through taking their chance and being sold on - would that increase crowds if it meant we were bottom 6 for 2/3 years - I doubt it. What do we as fans expect from the club? - What's done is now gone - but what do you think the club should look like in 10 years - not next summer? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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