Baraclough Out

[one m in motherwell]

I'd happily take bottom six at the moment, just so long as it's not bottom two.

[fizoxy]

All manager and player interviews are he same old bollocks. They're never going to single anyone out and they will be diplomatic in their comments about other players or officials. Very rarely do they offer any genuine insight.

[punk_in_drublic]

I'd happily take bottom six at the moment, just so long as it's not bottom two.

Same.

 

Feels like since 2007 we've been this team that eventually finish somewhere in the top 6. That's 8 years of good times. But this season I'm counting to 45. That's 45 points. I'll be happy to reach something that keeps us out that bottom 2 scenario.

[stv]

Pass the fukin razor blades,or change the record.

[StipeIsGod]

Did we win today?

 

Christ alive.

[Suprawell]

I cannot abide Barraclown and the bullshit he spouts week in week out. He is an imposter and I won't be happy until he is shown the door.

[Dexter Dawg]

Well having watched Motherwell for over 45 years,I am quite happy to give Mr Barraclough and his players some time to gel together,we are building a new team for fucks sake,won't happen overnight !!!

[Stef]

Having been watching the for the best part of 25 years the total knee jerk reaction from fans on here smacks of glory hunting. We are a small club punching above our position in Scottish football, i will be happy if we aint in a relegation dogfight.

[The African]

A couple of things. Personally I thought Barraclough had eight games or so to prove things were moving in the right direction and after four straight league defeats then the clock was ticking. The two wins this week have probably earned him a bit more time but another run like the previous one and he will have used up all the good will that two wins against a fundamentally shite Rangers team gave him and it will be time to look elsewhere.

As for the claim that we are a small team punching above our weight, I really don't buy that. In a football orientated country we are a top ten side all the way in terms of facilities, history and even support. Yes, things are screwed a fair bit by the fact that the football watching public in Scotland are split into two groups. The minority who have a genuine love for the beautiful game and the majority who are more interested in a regular re-enactment of the Battle of the Boyne. We are a big club in the context of the Scottish game and should act and behave accordingly. I am not suggesting we get so far up ourselves that we behave like the ugly sisters in Glasgow, but the small club excuse for piss poor performances should not be accepted.

[one m in motherwell]

My view on Bara changes week to week. At times I'm full of goodwill, firmly in the 'aye, it's a new team, got to give them time to gel' camp, but then sometimes it seems as though he's fundamentally incapable of setting a team up to play in the way he talks about. Can't work out whether its a case of the players not following instructions, or Bara not having the nous to get his vision across. Either of the latter two would be enough to get him hunted.

 

In any case, whether he's out of his depth or not, the Board clearly think he's the man for the job - being backed to bring in five strikers seems to indicate that he isn't going anywhere soon.

[Tamwell]

That Barraclown patter...

[Ya Bezzer!]

Having been watching the for the best part of 25 years the total knee jerk reaction from fans on here smacks of glory hunting. We are a small club punching above our position in Scottish football, i will be happy if we aint in a relegation dogfight.

 

Explains why I have a sore neck looking up at Accies and their 800 season ticket holders for two seasons.

[milo]

I'm quite certain this thread will be visited regularly after we take nothing from the Ross County and Accies games.

 

Partick Thistle is the next "must win".

[Catweazles ring piece]

I slated IB big time last season. I liked what he said, but never saw the talk translated onto the park.

The play offs were text book, so I thought maybe, there was more to him than bluster.

 

Time will tell if he is/was a good appointment, I still have reservations, but he needs time to bed in his signings. Don't discount the improvement since the coach came in. He may prove pivotal in all this!

 

ICT were phish when Hughes took over, but transformed when Lattapy joined as #2. Wee Russell left close season and ICT have plummeted! That isn't coincidence!

I'd leave him be for the minute, but I'd be monitoring things on a weekly/monthly basis.

Hope it all works well out in the end. COYW!

[star sail]

I cannot abide Barraclown and the bullshit he spouts week in week out. He is an imposter and I won't be happy until he is shown the door.

 

Is this a parody on the newly born clichés of the Baraclough out thread or a genuine comment?

[Kmcalpin]

A couple of things. Personally I thought Barraclough had eight games or so to prove things were moving in the right direction and after four straight league defeats then the clock was ticking. The two wins this week have probably earned him a bit more time but another run like the previous one and he will have used up all the good will that two wins against a fundamentally shite Rangers team gave him and it will be time to look elsewhere.

As for the claim that we are a small team punching above our weight, I really don't buy that. In a football orientated country we are a top ten side all the way in terms of facilities, history and even support. ..... We are a big club in the context of the Scottish game and should act and behave accordingly. I am not suggesting we get so far up ourselves that we behave like the ugly sisters in Glasgow, but the small club excuse for piss poor performances should not be accepted.

Good post. Ian Baraclough has bought himself time and hopefully the new players will settle in and learn how to play as a team.

 

You're also spot on about our position in the Scottish pecking order. Too many fans are just too easily brainwashed by TV football coverage of the English premiership football and coverage of European football

[star sail]

Good post. Ian Baraclough has bought himself time and hopefully the new players will settle in and learn how to play as a team.

 

You're also spot on about our position in the Scottish pecking order. Too many fans are just too easily brainwashed by TV football coverage of the English premiership football and coverage of European football

 

I agree with the comments made by yourself and The African. I think what has been lost and forgotten about however within this thread is the fact that the club and squad are going through a fairly major transition. I have said this several times before but I don't think we can really understate the rudderless, directionless nature of the club a year ago. Add to that an ageing, unbalanced squad and by November when McCall decided to call it quits it really was a club in crisis.

 

What this thread has taught me is that as a support we don't have the stomach for rebuilding and long term projects. We talk a good game about giving the young players a chance, bringing in players that will have re-sale value in a few years and yet when these players don't perform instantly and the new squad of players find it difficult to gel this thread grows by 5 pages over a single week.

 

We should have aspirations to be a top six club but we have no right to be there and certainly the end of August is far to early to be guessing as to how this season might actually pan out.

 

Maybe we should go back to the 'proven Scottish manager' idea, a guy (eg Jimmy Calderwood) who knows the Scottish game with journeymen players of similar ilk where every point is a prisoner at the expense of any long term strategy. If that does happen however lets drop the pretense that we have any interest in the long term and the future of our young players.

[capt_oats]

 

I agree with the comments made by yourself and The African. I think what has been lost and forgotten about however within this thread is the fact that the club and squad are going through a fairly major transition. I have said this several times before but I don't think we can really understate the rudderless, directionless nature of the club a year ago. Add to that an ageing, unbalanced squad and by November when McCall decided to call it quits it really was a club in crisis.

 

What this thread has taught me is that as a support we don't have the stomach for rebuilding and long term projects. We talk a good game about giving the young players a chance, bringing in players that will have re-sale value in a few years and yet when these players don't perform instantly and the new squad of players find it difficult to gel this thread grows by 5 pages over a single week.

 

We should have aspirations to be a top six club but we have no right to be there and certainly the end of August is far to early to be guessing as to how this season might actually pan out.

 

Maybe we should go back to the 'proven Scottish manager' idea, a guy (eg Jimmy Calderwood) who knows the Scottish game with journeymen players of similar ilk where every point is a prisoner at the expense of any long term strategy. If that does happen however lets drop the pretense that we have any interest in the long term and the future of our young players.

^^^^^ Basically this.

 

The major issue the Baraclough had/has is the context in which he got the job; he inherited an imbalanced, poorly performing squad and a team sat in 10th position in the league. He then proceeded to oversee a run of 8 league games without a win. On the face of it there was no new manager "bounce" and to all intents in purposes it looked like he had no impact at all. Add in the fact that he wasn't known and when it comes down to it some people just don't like his face then it's not a good first impression.

 

As I mentioned the other day though, his record last season from taking over from McCall is almost identical to McCall's record for the remainder of the season when he took over from Brown (including 9 losses and 12 games without scoring). Indeed looking at the goals against column Baraclough's record is significantly better. Ultimately what's the difference then? You've got two managers who have almost identical league records yet by all accounts McCall was afforded time and Baraclough should be bulleted right now, he's not the man for the job etc.

 

I'd argue the difference is that McCall, former Scotland international and someone fairly well 'known' inherited a very good squad and took over a team in mid-table and maintained that position despite his limitations as a manager. The lowest McCall's team dropped to that season was 8th. He also won 4 rounds that took us to a cup final. There was no threat of relegation, there was no "pressure". He was also able to maintain the bulk of his squad (Randolph, Hammell, Craigan, Hateley, Lasley, Hutchison, Humphrey, Jennings, Murphy and add the likes of Higdon, Ojamaa and Nicky Law)

 

In Baraclough's case you've got an unknown manager whose last job was in the league of Ireland and who on the face of it couldn't get us out of a rut left by McCall and it becomes very easy to simply focus solely on the manager and I completely understand why folk have the fear of a repeat of last season and also why they're comparing his league record to a recent history of 6th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd place finishes regardless of whether that's realistic or not. Also, rather than simply maintaining and adding to a good SPL level squad Bara's been charged with a complete overhaul of the squad.

 

Am I convinced by Baraclough? He's definitely still got a lot of work to do and a lot to prove. Like many, I think he says the right things but I'd like to see him actually put that into place. As Star Sail says we're in an obvious period of transition. Personally I have zero interest in going to watch a team defined by a short-termist outlook or for that matter watching a team put together by a Calderwood, Jeffries or someone of their ilk. But that's just me.

 

Do I think Baraclough's the man for the job? That remains to be seen but as it stands his league record isn't that much worse than the start the last guy had (who had by far a better squad to pick from) so in that respect I'm willing to give him a bit of time.

[Welldaft Mk1]

 

Explains why I have a sore neck looking up at Accies and their 800 season ticket holders for two seasons.

And why Hearts, Aberdeen, Hibs + United had sore necks looking up at us for 3 seasons.

[superward]

Coulsnt agree more starsail.

 

It's easier for folk to have 1 scapegoat and call him an imposter etc. rather than sit down and think through the various issues as a whole. Hence this thread as lasted as long.

[weeyin]

 

Explains why I have a sore neck looking up at Accies and their 800 season ticket holders for two seasons.

Aye, let's swap Accies last 5 seasons for ours.

 

We'll finish above them this season I'd wager.

 

Looking forward to steeboy's payout on his "None of our strikers will score 5 goals" bet too.

[Ya Bezzer!]

 

^^^^^ Basically this.

 

The major issue the Baraclough had/has is the context in which he got the job; he inherited an imbalanced, poorly performing squad and a team sat in 10th position in the league. He then proceeded to oversee a run of 8 league games without a win. On the face of it there was no new manager "bounce" and to all intents in purposes it looked like he had no impact at all. Add in the fact that he wasn't known and when it comes down to it some people just don't like his face then it's not a good first impression.

 

As I mentioned the other day though, his record last season from taking over from McCall is almost identical to McCall's record for the remainder of the season when he took over from Brown (including 9 losses and 12 games without scoring). Indeed looking at the goals against column Baraclough's record is significantly better. Ultimately what's the difference then? You've got two managers who have almost identical league records yet by all accounts McCall was afforded time and Baraclough should be bulleted right now, he's not the man for the job etc.

 

I'd argue the difference is that McCall, former Scotland international and someone fairly well 'known' inherited a very good squad and took over a team in mid-table and maintained that position despite his limitations as a manager. The lowest McCall's team dropped to that season was 8th. He also won 4 rounds that took us to a cup final. There was no threat of relegation, there was no "pressure". He was also able to maintain the bulk of his squad (Randolph, Hammell, Craigan, Hateley, Lasley, Hutchison, Humphrey, Jennings, Murphy and add the likes of Higdon, Ojamaa and Nicky Law)

 

In Baraclough's case you've got an unknown manager whose last job was in the league of Ireland and who on the face of it couldn't get us out of a rut left by McCall and it becomes very easy to simply focus solely on the manager and I completely understand why folk have the fear of a repeat of last season and also why they're comparing his league record to a recent history of 6th, 3rd, 2nd, 2nd place finishes regardless of whether that's realistic or not. Also, rather than simply maintaining and adding to a good SPL level squad Bara's been charged with a complete overhaul of the squad.

 

Am I convinced by Baraclough? He's definitely still got a lot of work to do and a lot to prove. Like many, I think he says the right things but I'd like to see him actually put that into place. As Star Sail says we're in an obvious period of transition. Personally I have zero interest in going to watch a team defined by a short-termist outlook or for that matter watching a team put together by a Calderwood, Jeffries or someone of their ilk. But that's just me.

 

Do I think Baraclough's the man for the job? That remains to be seen but as it stands his league record isn't that much worse than the start the last guy had (who had by far a better squad to pick from) so in that respect I'm willing to give him a bit of time.

 

Most of what you say is reasonable but I have to take issue with a couple of things. First of all, you say there was no "new manager bounce" but actually we got significantly better after McCall resigned. Under Kenny Black we beat Dundee Utd that was at the time top of the league and were one kick of the ball away from beating Ross County. We then went on and won the first two matches under Baraclough with basically the same team and set up. So I think that the team was performing better in the aftermath of the McCall resignation. The decline under Baraclough starting at Hamilton came after he was in the door and started making his own changes and I wouldn't put it down to a 'continuation' of the form under McCall.

 

Secondly while you are correct to say McCall inherited a much better team than Baraclough did I think it is also worth pointing out that he also lost much better players and had to replace good players with players not in the same bracket. Also it's fair to say that Baraclough has received more backing than any Motherwell manager since probably the post admin Billy Davies days. I was never McCall's biggest fan but I think we was quite severely restricted in his transfer dealings and general budget in the latter half of this spell at the club when we posted several large losses and the clubs finances were in a precarious Pre-Hutchison malaise. In terms of support Baraclough has had everything he's basically wanted and had very few restrictions placed in front of him and yet improvements expected have not yet materialised.

 

You also say you have "zero interest in going to watch a team defined by a short-termist outlook" but I'm afraid while it would be great if football was all about grand designs extending far off into the future, Motherwell FC has no future unless it focuses on the ultimate short term outlook of actually winning on a Saturday. You can have all the plans in the world but if we are relegated or the club goes into a sort of Kilmarnock style results recession/fan alienation then they are all in the vain. I think there could have been improvements and a longer term strategy in some areas such as player contracts but ultimately we have to divide our ambitions between first team results and longer term youth development and club modernisation perhaps skewed 60/40 in favour of the former, and more so when we are in real danger of relegation.

[Ya Bezzer!]

Aye, let's swap Accies last 5 seasons for ours.

 

We'll finish above them this season I'd wager.

 

Looking forward to steeboy's payout on his "None of our strikers will score 5 goals" bet too.

 

Kinda missing the point there aren't you.

 

All I'm saying is the small club/big club argument is pointless in terms of actual achievement out on the park. Accies, I'd imagine pay smaller wages than we do, but there are more than a few players at NDP that are, quite frankly, better than players we have.

 

It's all about getting the right players in and then utilising them correctly, not how many sides your stadium has or what your budget is, or how great a tradition you have

 

Hibs supporters might well claim the big club/greater tradition against us but a fine lot of use it's doing them losing to Dumbarton.

[Shire Greats]

I'm quite certain this thread will be visited regularly after we take nothing from the Ross County and Accies games.

 

Partick Thistle is the next "must win".

You should put a few bob on these games,if it's a foregone conclusion

[capt_oats]

 

Most of what you say is reasonable but I have to take issue with a couple of things. First of all, you say there was no "new manager bounce" but actually we got significantly better after McCall resigned. Under Kenny Black we beat Dundee Utd that was at the time top of the league and were one kick of the ball away from beating Ross County. We then went on and won the first two matches under Baraclough with basically the same team and set up. So I think that the team was performing better in the aftermath of the McCall resignation. The decline under Baraclough starting at Hamilton came after he was in the door and started making his own changes and I wouldn't put it down to a 'continuation' of the form under McCall.

 

Secondly while you are correct to say McCall inherited a much better team than Baraclough did I think it is also worth pointing out that he also lost much better players and had to replace good players with players not in the same bracket. Also it's fair to say that Baraclough has received more backing than any Motherwell manager since probably the post admin Billy Davies days. I was never McCall's biggest fan but I think we was quite severely restricted in his transfer dealings and general budget in the latter half of this spell at the club when we posted several large losses and the clubs finances were in a precarious Pre-Hutchison malaise. In terms of support Baraclough has had everything he's basically wanted and had very few restrictions placed in front of him and yet improvements expected have not yet materialised.

 

You also say you have "zero interest in going to watch a team defined by a short-termist outlook" but I'm afraid while it would be great if football was all about grand designs extending far off into the future, Motherwell FC has no future unless it focuses on the ultimate short term outlook of actually winning on a Saturday. You can have all the plans in the world but if we are relegated or the club goes into a sort of Kilmarnock style results recession/fan alienation then they are all in the vain. I think there could have been improvements and a longer term strategy in some areas such as player contracts but ultimately we have to divide our ambitions between first team results and longer term youth development and club modernisation perhaps skewed 60/40 in favour of the former, and more so when we are in real danger of relegation.

Actually wouldn't disagree with you on these points, but will attempt to clarify. As far as the "no new manager bounce" thing goes I think it's equally fair to say that while we ground out those results we didn't see a sudden rejuvenation in the way we were playing though certainly I concede 3 wins and a draw out of 6 games did mark a halt to the 6 games without a win prior to McCall leaving. What I was getting at was the overall context of Baraclough's arrival, 2 narrow wins vs St Mirren & Thistle and then the wheels came off so to speak. It didn't create a particularly good first impression and was enough to create substantial doubt, which obviously still exists given that this thread is still going.

 

You're completely correct re: the support Baraclough's had and I remember well the money that Davies had chucked at that team. I agree the improvements as yet haven't materialised and as I said Baraclough has a lot to prove and for me that has to be based on whether he can show he can actually manage the team, identify weaknesses and rectify them, get the XI players playing as a cohesive unit and ultimately win matches. We're 6 games in to the season and the knee-jerk reaction to this season so far seems to be being informed by the context of last season.

 

I'm no McCall fan quite the opposite in fact, which is pretty clear from my posts over on Pie & Bovril, but again I agree with you re: restrictions. Obviously I have no idea what sort of budgets he was being asked to work with so in that respect I wouldn't argue with you there.

 

As for the "short-termism" comment I made, of course there's a bottom line and that is winning games. I'm not naive enough to suggest that we would be placing an over-arching strategy over the importance of results. I suppose what I was suggesting I was against was the Ross County route that they seem to have dispensed with of seeing a huge turnover of players every transfer window or the method Killie have taken (and seem to be failing with) ie: bringing in a raft of "experienced" players at the end of their career in the hope of getting results.