2015/16 Ins & Outs

[Guest]

Beattie and Kuqi were done when they came up here. Zola was a diddy in both countries. Murphy is a strange one but he's maybe better suited to the style of the Championship than playing for a team on the front foot.

 

Considering how small our budget is, how much of it has been wasted over the past few years and the managers who have done the recruiting I don't see how anyone could argue we are Championship level.

 

Looking at where spl players are coming from and going to gives a good indicator of the strength of the league.

 

I guess it depends how you look at it, given that there are plenty of ex-SPL level players doing very well in the championship. Some struggle, some don't, but I wouldn't say Aberdeen, for example, are miles away from holding their own against teams like that.

 

It's not the best comparison, in the end, as you say, the relative budgetary concerns are hugely different, but in terms of quality, there's no massive difference, for me.

[ONeils40yarder]

Every club is a selling Club, at the end of the day...and most clubs talk up players that they'd like to punt further down the line. You've all been talking about United as if they are alone in Scotland, but just look down the M74 at a Club who seem to always manage to bring great money in for players plying their trade in our shite league...with young Tierney currently getting the 'he can play at a far higher level' treatment

[Gadgey]

An interesting debate regarding the comparison between SPFL and English lower leagues.

 

Having been to lots of English league games over recent years, I think it's fair to say that the gulf between the clubs in either side of the border is getting greater.

 

10-15 years ago when I was regularly going to watch gillingham in the championship, I would say Scottish teams of the time would have comfortably lived in that environment.

 

A little later, I used to regularly watch Brentford (brother in law lived there) and Gillingham (my local club) when they were both in league 1 during the back end of the last decade and then latterly Exeter and 'the gills' when they were in league 2 (now latterly gillingham riding high in league 1) during the last six years or so.

 

I now through work, get to see West Ham and Charlton fairly often and I think it's fair to say that during that 10 years or so, there's been a sizeable shift in standard between the English leagues. It's been all to do with money of course and for that reason alone, by default, the standard of the Scottish game has fallen behind also.

 

But to say that Motherwell would be a lower league 1 side at best, is a little unfair. It is in itself an unlevel playing field in that clubs even at that level, have more to spend than us. But all things considered, the majority of Scottish teams would, if thrown in and given acclimatising time, would comfortably survive in league 1. Some would be able to push on to championship.

[ohwulliewullie]

For what it's worth, I bumped into Ian Baraclough while he was still our manager and asked him where he would place us in the English leagues. His answer was: budget wise, mid to upper league two; standard wise, mid to lower league one. From my experience of watching that level of football (and a general view of players that move north-south) my opinion is that that's about right. Championship is now on another level.

[Mitch]

A little later, I used to regularly watch Brentford (brother in law lived there) and Gillingham (my local club) when they were both in league 1 during the back end of the last decade and then latterly Exeter and 'the gills' when they were in league 2 (now latterly gillingham riding high in league 1) during the last six years or so.

 

You have my sympathy. I work down that neck of the woods every few weeks and Medway is a terrible place!

 

Whilst no-body outside of Celtic would compete at the top end of the Championship, I reckon we would hold our own around the middle of League 1. The standard really isnt as good as some would have you believe...

[The African]

English lower league football, - mid level Championship and below, is certainly a fine example of the law of diminishing returns. The amount of money spent does not seem to increase the quality of the product exponentially. This is most probably due to the lack of sufficient talent. Great news for the less talented players who are obviously being overpaid. Not so great for the other markets in the vacinitty who suffer as the expanding English market soaks up all the available cash and resources.

[Kmcalpin]

English lower league football, - mid level Championship and below, is certainly a fine example of the law of diminishing returns. The amount of money spent does not seem to increase the quality of the product exponentially. This is most probably due to the lack of sufficient talent. Great news for the less talented players who are obviously being overpaid. Not so great for the other markets in the vacinitty who suffer as the expanding English market soaks up all the available cash and resources.

Good post. I'm not a fan of English football but the last time I checked (about 2 years ago) the amount of debt in the Championship was staggering. Even English League two clubs receive far more in TV cash than most Scottish Premiership clubs do.

[steelboy]

 

 

 

Whilst no-body outside of Celtic would compete at the top end of the Championship, I reckon we would hold our own around the middle of League 1. The standard really isnt as good as some would have you believe...

League One teams tend to all have a handful of EPL loanees these days. Sheffield United and Coventry are around the middle of league of one and have resources that dwarf us.

 

As far as Celtic are concerned Lawell is running them into the ground and they are miles away from the standard of Burnley, Boro and Brighton.

 

The gap with England is only going to get bigger but that isn't necessarily bad news for us. What's important is that we are good to watch not comparisons with other leagues. More foreign players and more money invested in English academies should mean we can pick up players like Moult and Marvin from unexpected places.

[faddythedaddy]

I see Jake Taylor and Nathan Thomas now ripping it up for Hartlepool.

 

Boy Thomas scored a belter of a goal the other week

[capt_oats]

I see Jake Taylor and Nathan Thomas now ripping it up for Hartlepool.

 

Boy Thomas scored a belter of a goal the other week

Jake Taylor's at Exeter. Was on the bench against Plymouth on Saturday.

[Joeboy]

I am also a bit of a part time Coventry supporter and having seen seven Cov games this season (four in the flesh, three on TV), I would say league one probably has a better standard of player than the SPFL, certainly in the top half anyway. However, Coventry trying to get the ball on the deck and play football is often the exception, rather than the rule. It is often filled with tough players up for a battle whose technical limitations would count against them at a higher level. Although the product itself isn't always the easiest on the eye, I'd say there's at least more attempt to play good football in the SPFL.

[weeyin]

So what we're saying is that we got it wrong and Championship player Jake Taylor is actually better than SPFL standard?

[steelboy]

He's 24 and he's made 14 starts in the Championship.

 

As said above he's currently bench warming in League Two.

[AllyMax]

I see Jake Taylor and Nathan Thomas now ripping it up for Hartlepool.

 

Boy Thomas scored a belter of a goal the other week

 

What actually happened with Nathan Thomas ?? I thought we paid a small fee to secure him and then he disappeared like John Gardner at a corner.

[weeyin]

He's 24 and he's made 14 starts in the Championship.

 

As said above he's currently bench warming in League Two.

So are you saying we didn't sign him on loan from a Championship team? Or just that he didn't play for Reading from 2009 - 2016?

 

My point still stands. There are plenty of Jake Taylors in the lower half of the Championship just as there are EPL level players in the top half.

[steelboy]

I don't understand how you can judge a league on the basis of a player who has barely played in that league and who's club punted him out on loan 6 times.

 

Bolton are the only really poor team in that league. Charlton are a shambles but still have some decent players. Other than that most teams are significantly better than Aberdeen. Fulham are in the relegation battle and they start about £20m worth of strikers every week. As we see every time we play a Championship team in a friendly it's a totally different level of athleticism.

[MelvinBragg]

Fulham are in the relegation battle and they start about £20m worth of strikers every week.

One of whom was playing for Motherwell eight years ago. The point is that players can make the move from the SPL to the Championship and thrive. And I think that was the initial point, why can't Johnson be one of those players to make the switch effortlessly? Why couldn't he be a McCormack rather than a Goodwillie or Griffiths? Particularly as, like McCormack, he is decent technically...

[steelboy]

I'd say Griffiths is a far more technically accomplished player than Marvin.

 

The debate was about whether the Championship is a step up or not. The comments that there isn't much of a difference between the bottom of the Championship and 2-6 in our league display Old Firm esque levels of delusion. As other posters have said a the quality has moved in opposite directions recently.

[MelvinBragg]

I'd say Griffiths is a far more technically accomplished player than Marvin.

 

The debate was about whether the Championship is a step up or not. The comments that there isn't much of a difference between the bottom of the Championship and 2-6 in our league display Old Firm esque levels of delusion. As other posters have said a the quality has moved in opposite directions recently.

I know the debate ended up as that and it's a debate that I'm not that interested in. My interest is in where we can flog our assets to for the highest price...

 

For me the Ins & Outs thread isn't for debating whether we're better than Coventry.

 

Oh, and Griffiths may be more technically gifted now, but not when he left for Wolves...

[steelboy]

My interest is in where we can flog our assets to for the highest price...

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_football_transfers_summer_2015

 

Going by this only four players moved from Scotland to England last summer. Van Dijk who has been a success, Adam Matthews who has played for Sunderland twice and been punted out on loan, Erwin who has made no impact at Leeds and Botti Biabi who went into the Swansea youth team. Looking at the two transfer windows around it only Lewis MacLeod, Kayal, Billy McKay, Tony Andreu, Fillip Twardzik and Theo Robinson moved south and four of them were complete duds.

 

Scotland to England is not a thriving market at the moment.

[dennyc]

For me, Marvin has the talent and to play at Championship level and just needs to gain consistency.

 

If he can master that, then he would have as good a chance of success as Jamie Murphy had......and that transfer seems to have worked out not too poorly. And a couple of advantages with Marvin.....his contract is not about to expire and he is a known quantity in England given that other clubs were interested when we sneaked in and signed him.

 

So, as this is an ins and outs thread, hold out for a decent bid and make sure good add ons are a part of any deal. Same goes for Louis.

[Big Wispy Flossy]

For me, Marvin has the talent and to play at Championship level and just needs to gain consistency.

 

If he can master that, then he would have as good a chance of success as Jamie Murphy had......and that transfer seems to have worked out not too poorly. And a couple of advantages with Marvin.....his contract is not about to expire and he is a known quantity in England given that other clubs were interested when we sneaked in and signed him.

 

So, as this is an ins and outs thread, hold out for a decent bid and make sure good add ons are a part of any deal. Same goes for Louis.

There's two flaws to your argument.

 

1 - Jamie Murphy was a more rounded player and had to play in league 1 for 2 seasons in order to develop for the championship.

 

2 - marvins a known quantity in England - only at conference level though.

[Gadgey]

 

You have my sympathy. I work down that neck of the woods every few weeks and Medway is a terrible place!

 

 

LOL it certainly is !!!

 

The combined Medway towns of gillingham, Chatham and Rochester make Motherwell and wishaw seem like bearsden and milngavie

[Yassin]

There's two flaws to your argument.

 

1 - Jamie Murphy was a more rounded player and had to play in league 1 for 2 seasons in order to develop for the championship.

 

2 - marvins a known quantity in England - only at conference level though.

I'm pretty sure we outbid Championship and League 1 clubs for Marvin. Yeovil were one I remember hearing about .

[Gadgey]

I don't understand how you can judge a league on the basis of a player who has barely played in that league and who's club punted him out on loan 6 times.

 

Bolton are the only really poor team in that league. Charlton are a shambles but still have some decent players. Other than that most teams are significantly better than Aberdeen. Fulham are in the relegation battle and they start about £20m worth of strikers every week. As we see every time we play a Championship team in a friendly it's a totally different level of athleticism.

I would agree with pretty much all of that. The English lower league fixture card is gruelling and I'd go as far to say that all three leagues demand high levels of athleticism and stamina.

 

Someone said earlier that Jamie Murphy had to do two years in league 1 to get ready for championship and they're bang on. In fact, I recently read an interview where he said as much.

 

Obviously, being an exile I don't get to see as much of players as many of you do, but from what I've seen of him, big Marv could be a good league 1 player and in time possibly lower championship, but would need greater consistency to cope with the heavy fixture list whilst maintaining a starting berth in either league.