Mst Open Meeting

[TheLip69]

Give us something to address. As I said earlier, Moe Green turned up last night and made some constructive suggestions, which have been taken on board and will be worked on. If every fan/member did the same, we'd be in a much healthier position. However, I would imagine that if you'd turned up last night, you would've just told us how shite we were. That doesn't help.

 

Give us something constructive, something to aim at, something to address. Don't just mud-sling.

 

Frazzle

 

 

I'm not mud-slingin, you are.

Your open night failed to encourage anyone along last night because you do not have the TRUST of the fans.

In my opinion the major fault is that you are not seen to working on behalf of the fans, but for the Trust. I see your efforts to encourage membership merely to strengthen the position of the Trust, not to help the fans.

I'm not saying that's how things are, but that's the impression that's given. From what I read and hear of the Trust it's every effort seems to be aimed at gaining shares and representation on the board. Is that what the fans want, or is that what the Trust wants? Personally, I disagree with it, the minute a fans representative joins the board he just becomes another board member. I'd prefer it if the Trust became a strong lobbying group on behalf of the fans. I'd much rather we were outside the tent pissing in, than inside the tent pissing out.

Rightly or wrongly the co-opting of Martin Rose onto the Trust board has angered a lot of fans and that is a point that needs to be addressed.

The Trust needs to address the reasons why the support is showing little or no interest in it, rather than burying it's head in the sand and blaming the fans.

[Speedie]

I see your efforts to encourage membership merely to strengthen the position of the Trust, not to help the fans.

 

The way I see it is that raising membership means the Trust represents more Motherwell fans. If the Trust represents more of the support then it should then be able to exert more influence on the club. More influence leads should lead to a positive outcome for the Trust's members and the support in general.

 

From what I read and hear of the Trust it's every effort seems to be aimed at gaining shares and representation on the board. Is that what the fans want, or is that what the Trust wants?

 

I don't think every effort of the Trust is focused on gaining shares. If what your saying was the case there would be no Trust Quiz Night, the Trust wouldn't hold a football tournament every summer and the Sports Dinner held two weeks back would never have happened. It is true that the Trust hope to gain fans representation on the board, one way to do that is to build up sufficient numbers of shares but there's far more going on.

 

The Trust needs to address the reasons why the support is showing little or no interest in it, rather than burying it's head in the sand and blaming the fans.

 

The Open Meeting was one of the first steps on the long way back. It was far from a failure those who did attend contributed a lot and I thank them for that. I hope over the coming month we'll convert them all.

 

The hands are up, mistakes have been made in the past and it will take time and effort to get the support onside. The process has started, I know we've gained at least 4 new members since last night. That's very encouraging but as I said it's only the start.

[Motherwell Seagull]

Why don't the Trust try and give the fans something to aim at rather than it being the other way around? I know where you are coming from but the trust in my view lack any real vision or sense of purpose. Give the fans a real reason to join the Trust not stay away from it.

 

You make a good point here Dodge - but what sort of initiative will unite at least some of the fans behind the Trust?

 

I still think the trust needs to decide what its purpose is - although I believe they have taken the first step in that direction.

 

 

The Trust need some folk to have connections with MFC where possible. 'Flow resigned as soon as he got the job at the club as he didn't want a conflict of interest. Whereas Martin, if even unofficially gives the Trust some way into the Boardroom at present. Until the Trust get someone there on merit, then he'll have to do.

 

I don't doubt this for a moment, but there remains a huge conflict of interest here, and truthfully I think it should be a bigger problem for MFC than it is for the Trust. That it is allowed to continue could be read as the club meeting the trust half way. Regardless, I believe that Mr Rose should not be on the Trust board if he is only 'unofficially' representing the trust on the Board of the club. If Mr Rose were to step down from the Board of the Trust, I do not see why that could/should diminish the role he currently plays - he can still provide opinions, direction, and unofficially represent the trust on the Club board - albeit with less of a profile.

[Dodge]

You make a good point here Dodge - but what sort of initiative will unite at least some of the fans behind the Trust?

 

I don't know what kind of initiative will do this. This is up to the Trust to come up with something. Andy Ross sights the example of helping out the under 15 team or whatever as being beneficial to the club. Whilst I can't argue with this cause I can't help but feel its a very small initiative and that the trust are funding something which every other juvenile and amatuer team are managing to finding outside funding for so why can't the club. The same goes for the Trust sponsorship of players and the training kit. The club are finding other sources for players in this website and other kind individuals so I don't really see that as being off real value. I wish the Trust had held off with these initiatives in the past and could've perhaps delivered the disabled enclosure or delivered some fancy high tech machines which John Porteous could use to nurse players back into the squad quicker. I'm sure others could come up with lots of real high value projects but the Trust appear to lack any high ambitions apart from a seat at the board.

[Neil]

It would be good to see some transparency over what the club have requested from the Trust and what the Trust have agree to and what they haven't, to see what ballpark we're playing in with regards to initiatives.

[AndyRoss]

I hit a button and fecked it up!

[AndyRoss]

<P>

<BR>I don't know what kind of initiative will do this. This is up to the Trust to come up with something. Andy Ross sights the example of helping out the under 15 team or whatever as being beneficial to the club. Whilst I can't argue with this cause I can't help but feel its a very small initiative and that the trust are funding something which every other juvenile and amatuer team are managing to finding outside funding for so why can't the club. The same goes for the Trust sponsorship of players and the training kit. The club are finding other sources for players in this website and other kind individuals so I don't really see that as being off real value. I wish the Trust had held off with these initiatives in the past and could've perhaps delivered the disabled enclosure or delivered some fancy high tech machines which John Porteous could use to nurse players back into the squad quicker. I'm sure others could come up with lots of real high value projects but the Trust appear to lack any high ambitions apart from a seat at the board.<BR>

 

I think in what you have just posted you have provided something really useful - you have let the members of the Trust board what you want or what you would like a focus on.

 

I used the example of helping the Under 15's in a wider point about perhaps focusing ourselves on helping a certain area (in this case youth development.)

 

In the current climate , sponsorship etc will be harder to come by - maybe this is where the Trust can step in by providing the cash which hasn't been raised in sponsorship.

 

Perhaps next year less of the budget will be able to spent on Youth Development due to the essential work on the pitch?

 

It has been mentioned in the past that there is money sitting waiting for the work on the disabled enclosure and as I understand it , the club have been a bit slow to react on it all.

 

However , as I am sure someone will point out , we should be pushing on with this and giving the club constant reminders.

[Motherwell Seagull]

I don't know what kind of initiative will do this. This is up to the Trust to come up with something. Andy Ross sights the example of helping out the under 15 team or whatever as being beneficial to the club. Whilst I can't argue with this cause I can't help but feel its a very small initiative and that the trust are funding something which every other juvenile and amatuer team are managing to finding outside funding for so why can't the club. The same goes for the Trust sponsorship of players and the training kit. The club are finding other sources for players in this website and other kind individuals so I don't really see that as being off real value. I wish the Trust had held off with these initiatives in the past and could've perhaps delivered the disabled enclosure or delivered some fancy high tech machines which John Porteous could use to nurse players back into the squad quicker. I'm sure others could come up with lots of real high value projects but the Trust appear to lack any high ambitions apart from a seat at the board.

 

Not that its worth anything - but I agree with you 100%!

 

I am already on record as saying that the Trust should not be competing with this board or any other sources of revenue the club may have to provide sponsorship etc. If all the jerseys etc are sponsored the trust should be looking at other avenues - but if they are not all sponsored then so be it.

 

Perhaps the trust should focus on providing some sort of legacy - and as you point out, aim to provide solutions to some of the bigger problems where traditional funding methods will not suffice. Anything to help JP continue with the fantastic job he has always done should be a priority I would have thought.

 

Does JP qualify for a testimonial?

[Frazzie]

The club are fully aware that the Pitch In! fund is in place, but I think they're holding off on that due to the big secret move to the new stadium. I could well be wrong though.

 

I think what Dodge is saying in essence is right, and someone was saying something along the same lines at the meeting. We need a cause to get people interested, to get the blood pumping, but I don't think we can just make one up. Obviously the Phil O'Donnell night at the Civic was nothing to do with the Trust, but when we (meaning myself and Phil, not the MST) were organising it, everyone rallied round and got right behind it because it was clearly a cause that people were passionate about. Unfortunately (well, forunately of course but you know what I mean in the context), these things don't come around very often. I'm sure if the club went into administration again, or were bought over by dodgy Lithuanians, then the membership of the Trust would treble. Unfortunately, it could be too late by then.

 

Frazzle

[Motherwell Seagull]

<P>

I think in what you have just posted you have provided something really useful - you have let the members of the Trust board what you want or what you would like a focus on.

 

Lets hope this type of communication continues!

 

Appreciate that Open Meetings are needed, and to be honest they should become a regular event - but the informal channels will always generate great ideas. Too many folk have become entrenched in their views (not sure I agree with apathetic), and meetings will not work for them. Forum's like this however...

[Motherwell Seagull]

We need a cause to get people interested, to get the blood pumping, but I don't think we can just make one up.

 

Perhaps you are aiming too high Fraz?

 

Not sure you need 1 big cause. The trouble with them is that once they are over, you need to find another silver bullet.

 

Suspect that a well publicised programme of many smaller initiatives will begin to win the support round. Everyone will have different thoughts on what should happen - thats natural after all. A dozen different schemes that cover different aspects of the club eg youth, stadium etc (and perhaps even allows folk to get involved themselves without having to dip into their pockets all the time) may get a wider body of supporters involved and caring for the cause?

 

Who knows - it may even begin to bridge the divide between some fans and the club??

 

I don't know anything about how the night at the Mega bar was arranged (I think its a great idea btw), but perhaps this is something that the trust can quietly begin to assist the club with in future? I am sure we would all rather the club improved their admin rather than organise good nights out for us all (and that is not a dig).

 

Just a thought - but the next time the Trust get their publicity, or photos taken, how about pulling names out a hat of all those who contributed to the fundraising to represent the trust rather than having the same old faces in the photos?

 

One last thing (whilst I am on my soapbox), I have seen the fanbase grow closer to clubs where initiatives such as lotteries for a couple of fans to join in training at the club etc exist. Takes a fair commitment from all concerned, but does not really cost the club anything, whilst helping to generate cash etc.

 

I'll shut up now!

[Well-Made]

Dodge, know you mentioned the disabled section.

 

I know before I left the board last year that was one of the aims of the Trust to help out with the disabled section. However I believe a number of factors may haveled

to taht being shelved for themoment and I don't mean by the trust.

[Tartan_Special]

Motherwell seagull is right. The little things make a world of difference.

Once theyre all done of course

[Scooby Hugh]

I'm not mud-slingin, you are.

Your open night failed to encourage anyone along last night because you do not have the TRUST of the fans.

In my opinion the major fault is that you are not seen to working on behalf of the fans, but for the Trust. I see your efforts to encourage membership merely to strengthen the position of the Trust, not to help the fans.

I'm not saying that's how things are, but that's the impression that's given. From what I read and hear of the Trust it's every effort seems to be aimed at gaining shares and representation on the board. Is that what the fans want, or is that what the Trust wants? Personally, I disagree with it, the minute a fans representative joins the board he just becomes another board member. I'd prefer it if the Trust became a strong lobbying group on behalf of the fans. I'd much rather we were outside the tent pissing in, than inside the tent pissing out.

Rightly or wrongly the co-opting of Martin Rose onto the Trust board has angered a lot of fans and that is a point that needs to be addressed.

The Trust needs to address the reasons why the support is showing little or no interest in it, rather than burying it's head in the sand and blaming the fans.

 

 

That post has hit the nail on the head for me.

 

I have never been a trust member and I don't think I ever will be, IMO certain members of the trust are in it for themselves and it's guys like Flow (when he was a member), Keith and Jim that take the flak for it.

 

Other guys like Martin Rose just sit back and get the benefits.

 

The is not a slagging of the new members.

 

Shug

[DosserJoe]

Other guys like Martin Rose just sit back and get the benefits.

 

What benefits do MST board members get that you dont???

 

1. Less free time? (i.e. the board have had to meet monday and tonight. They have also all put a great deal of effort into the recent O'Donnell fundraisers which have no benefit financially to themselves or the trust. I'm probably the only one who isn't pulling my weight just now coz I work in England and can't always free up my time)

 

2. A volley full of pish on public message boards?

 

3. Resentment from sections of the support bacuse "we are in it for ourselves"?

 

Explain to me the benefits I get from being a board member and I'll start to enjoy them. As far as I can see all you get for being on the board is a load of pish off of folk like you that like posting crypitc messages coz your too spinless to post them outright yourself.

 

You love critising things that we have not done, when as far as I can see you yourself have never contributed anything toward the Trust yourself. But of course I would say that because I am in it for myself afterall.

 

In my opinion if you have nothing to contribute to the Trust, then you should just shut up as your only out to undermine all of the good work that the board members, new and old, have done for the club and the support at large.

[TheLip69]

The Trust need some folk to have connections with MFC where possible. 'Flow resigned as soon as he got the job at the club as he didn't want a conflict of interest. Whereas Martin, if even unofficially gives the Trust some way into the Boardroom at present. Until the Trust get someone there on merit, then he'll have to do.

 

 

If it's a conflict of interest for 'Flow, why isn't it for Martin Rose.

The fact is that he is not the Trust's man on the board, but the boards man on the Trust. There is a huge difference between the two, and many people see this as the board having influence within the Trust rather than the other way about.

To be honest I am in complete disagreement with the Trusts intentions of getting someone onto the board, I believe the Trust should be lobbying board members not joining them. The minute a Trust member joins the board he distances himself from the fans, he becomes one of them rather than one of us. That's the way many people will see it, it's human nature.

[TheLip69]

What benefits do MST board members get that you dont???

 

1. Less free time? (i.e. the board have had to meet monday and tonight. They have also all put a great deal of effort into the recent O'Donnell fundraisers which have no benefit financially to themselves or the trust. I'm probably the only one who isn't pulling my weight just now coz I work in England and can't always free up my time)

 

2. A volley full of pish on public message boards?

 

3. Resentment from sections of the support bacuse "we are in it for ourselves"?

 

Explain to me the benefits I get from being a board member and I'll start to enjoy them. As far as I can see all you get for being on the board is a load of pish off of folk like you that like posting crypitc messages coz your too spinless to post them outright yourself.

 

You love critising things that we have not done, when as far as I can see you yourself have never contributed anything toward the Trust yourself. But of course I would say that because I am in it for myself afterall.

 

In my opinion if you have nothing to contribute to the Trust, then you should just shut up as your only out to undermine all of the good work that the board members, new and old, have done for the club and the support at large.

 

Rather than going on the defensive over what you see as someone's misconceptions about the role of Trust members, maybe you should take his points on board more fully.

First of all, ask yourself why he, and many others, believe you are "all in it for yourselves"

Then you could ask yourself why you are taking " a volley full of pish" on message boards.

Ask yourself if the Trust is getting it's message over in the correct manner, then ask yourself if that message concurs with what the fans want.

It's time the Trust looked at itself and it's message.

[Speedie]

There will be a report available on the Trust's new website, at mstonline.net, by the end of this week covering off what was discussed last night.

 

Details of the meeting are available here.

[Speedie]

First of all, ask yourself thing why he, and many others, believe you are "all in it for yourselves"

 

There were no points made merely a statement by one person. Not a suggestion that "many people" believe this to be fact.

 

I don't have a problem with people making points, many of which are valid and put across very well. Indeed I actually have respect for the way Dodge, Scooby Hugh and Seagull have come on here and have tried to have a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the Trust. I may disagree with their points, but debate is healthy. It's the basis of this forum.

 

You on the other hand don't want debate, I've reviewed your post regarding the Trust and I've came to the conclusion that you have nothing constructive to say and that you will never be satisfied with any response given. You're the type that would far rather pick holes in people's arguments, than add anything to the debate. You would like nothing better than the Trust to fail. But I'll tell you what, I think that would be a right shame for the support.

 

Feel free to contribute positively to the discussion but don't just type your usual "take onboard what people are saying" crap. I won't be holding my breath.

[Motherwell Seagull]

There were no points made merely a statement by one person. Not a suggestion that "many people" believe this to be fact.

 

I don't have a problem with people making points, many of which are valid and put across very well. Indeed I actually have respect for the way Dodge, Scooby Hugh and Seagull have come on here and have tried to have a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the Trust. I may disagree with their points, but debate is healthy. It's the basis of this forum.

 

You on the other hand don't want debate, I've reviewed your post regarding the Trust and I've came to the conclusion that you have nothing constructive to say and that you will never be satisfied with any response given. You're the type that would far rather pick holes in people's arguments, than add anything to the debate. You would like nothing better than the Trust to fail. But I'll tell you what, I think that would be a right shame for the support.

 

Feel free to contribute positively to the discussion but don't just type your usual "take onboard what people are saying" crap. I won't be holding my breath.

 

Here is the thing - no organisation is perfect, and will never be 100% correct all of the time.

 

A lot of the comments from this (and many other threads) simply say that the Trust is not perfect and therefore do not deserve to be supported. Ok, perhaps over simplistic, but at least the sentiment is right.

 

The Trust has come out and asked for input. No matter how you look at it, this is a good thing, and should be recognised as a step in the right direction.

 

If we all provide input, ideas, feelings and not simple generalisms (which is a cop out) then we can judge the Trust on their actions, and not their words. I reckon the trust would be happy with that!

 

Given that the Trust are not forcing any of us to become members before ideas are considered, do any of us have anything to loose?

 

The Trust should be a good thing for this club (and the supporters). In many ways they are asking for a second chance - is that really a bad thing?

[TheLip69]

There were no points made merely a statement by one person. Not a suggestion that "many people" believe this to be fact.

 

I don't have a problem with people making points, many of which are valid and put across very well. Indeed I actually have respect for the way Dodge, Scooby Hugh and Seagull have come on here and have tried to have a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the Trust. I may disagree with their points, but debate is healthy. It's the basis of this forum.

 

You on the other hand don't want debate, I've reviewed your post regarding the Trust and I've came to the conclusion that you have nothing constructive to say and that you will never be satisfied with any response given. You're the type that would far rather pick holes in people's arguments, than add anything to the debate. You would like nothing better than the Trust to fail. But I'll tell you what, I think that would be a right shame for the support.

 

Feel free to contribute positively to the discussion but don't just type your usual "take onboard what people are saying" crap. I won't be holding my breath.

 

Firstly, I am aware that the statement about members of teh trust "being in it for themsleves" was only by one man, but I am equally aware that there are others who feel this way, but I was responding to Dosser Joe's post which contained the following line.....3. Resentment from sections of the support bacuse "we are in it for ourselves"?

I would say that encompasses the word many, wouldn't you?

 

Secondly, I have made my feelings about the Trust clear on several occasions. I agree with the need for a Trust but I do not agree with some of it's aims and objections. Particularly the aim for the Trust to get a seat on the board, that is the major point which stops me from joining. I am also not best pleased at their being a board member on the board of the Trust, that would be my stance regardless of who the board member was, the fact that it is Martin Rose just makes it worse.

I am prepared to debate those points but no-one from the Trust has taken me up on it.

 

Thirdly, I have asked this before, but stop sending me private messages stick to the boards, I dont have anything to hide.

[TheLip69]

Personal MessageThe Dossier ipsmenu.register( "post-member-299", '', 'popmenubutton-new', 'popmenubutton-new-out' ); Troll!, Today, 01:08 AM

 

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Well done!

 

--------------------

"When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea"You want to explain this?

[DosserJoe]

TheLip69

 

I'll address a few points here.

 

Firstly, your response to my reaction to Shug's post. I'll take on board anything he has to say that is constructive. If he would care to give me an example of the Benifits us Trust Board members are supposed to be enjoying and why he thinks we are in it for ourselves, then I'll take it on board. All I can see is blind statements with no substance.

 

Martin Rose - Conflict of interest. I've often thought that myself. Indeed, when I was on the trust board years ago when it first came about I was of that opinion too. Having went back on trust board, Martin's hard work in recent months have convinced me that he's not suffering from a conflict of interests. Is he the right man to be chairman? That's for the members to decide. My personal thoughts are with the current board members he is the right man. If the membership declines any further then I think I wouldn't be getting value from my tenner membership if I didn't voice for change.

 

Seat in the board for the fans? It's one of the key points I would want the trust to persue. I believe the club is in decent shape just now, but if Boyle pops his kogs tomorrow where would we be? I would want a Trust rep to be involved in shaping the future running of the club once Boyles millions have passed us by. Remember also, we may have a consultation coming up on a new stadium if/when Fir Park is deemed past is shelf life. I would also want a Trust (fans) voice on how the club Board shape things. The only other option is militant protest, but you need something to go WRONG to stimulate militant protest - and there hasn't been much wrong recently past Maurice Malpas. It may be worth asking all of the membership and potential membership if a Trust seat on the board is actually what we need incase there are other people out there with the same feeling as you.

[Malky79]

TheLip69

 

I'll address a few points here.

 

Firstly, your response to my reaction to Shug's post. I'll take on board anything he has to say that is constructive. If he would care to give me an example of the Benifits us Trust Board members are supposed to be enjoying and why he thinks we are in it for ourselves, then I'll take it on board. All I can see is blind statements with no substance.

 

Martin Rose - Conflict of interest. I've often thought that myself. Indeed, when I was on the trust board years ago when it first came about I was of that opinion too. Having went back on trust board, Martin's hard work in recent months have convinced me that he's not suffering from a conflict of interests. Is he the right man to be chairman? That's for the members to decide. My personal thoughts are with the current board members he is the right man. If the membership declines any further then I think I wouldn't be getting value from my tenner membership if I didn't voice for change.

Seat in the board for the fans? It's one of the key points I would want the trust to persue. I believe the club is in decent shape just now, but if Boyle pops his kogs tomorrow where would we be? I would want a Trust rep to be involved in shaping the future running of the club once Boyles millions have passed us by. Remember also, we may have a consultation coming up on a new stadium if/when Fir Park is deemed past is shelf life. I would also want a Trust (fans) voice on how the club Board shape things. The only other option is militant protest, but you need something to go WRONG to stimulate militant protest - and there hasn't been much wrong recently past Maurice Malpas. It may be worth asking all of the membership and potential membership if a Trust seat on the board is actually what we need incase there are other people out there with the same feeling as you.

 

I can't speak for what Martin rose has done in recent months but the conflict of interest exists, it can't not be seen to exist. He also has a image of self promotion which given he now sits on the board seems to be something he excelled at. Since back in the day of being chairman of supporters association and got himself onto the Supporters National Federation of Football Supporters Clubs or something like that the exact title is being dug up from memory he worked his way from one gravy train freebie to the next and can't help think the trust is just the latest for him, certainly got him a seat on the board.

[Guest 'Flow]

If it's a conflict of interest for 'Flow, why isn't it for Martin Rose.

When I was offered a post with the football club, I immediately made up my mind that my position within the Motherwell Supporters Trust was completely and utterly untenable (the same with here, albeit it took slightly longer to give it uo). I didn't (and still don't) think it would've been right for me to be on the board of a Supporters Group (one of which I still, generally, support the aims) and work for the club on a full-time basis. There would be obvious times where my position on either side would come into conflict and the only appropriate thing, I felt, was to tender my resignation (I am, however, still a paid up member of the Trust).

 

That is just me own personal thoughts on the matter - I can't speak for Martin although I have heard his reasoning for not following my path. Whilst I may not always agree with that route, I respect his right to take that course.

 

'Flow