jamesc Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Grudgingly watched the highlights, it's worth it to see dom thomas celebrating when ainsworth scored the 3rd. That's what you want too see, hunger, desire & passion to win games, as well as ability. The guy would be first name on the team sheet on Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 For me you are looking for good young players to go out on the field and make it happen - no excuses. When you get the chance you've got to show what you can do. Look at Dom Thomas, about 80% of the time when he comes on as a sub he turns the game around and transforms the team. Leitch doesn't do that he just sort of melds into the mediocrity. I take your point and don't disagree entirely, but there has to be a point where the two meet, and you have to look at the differing responsibilities between the two players you mentioned. Dom Thomas has the luxury of being able to try the things that can end up turning a game around, because of the position of the park he is generally trying them. His style as a player and also his role in the side comes with a lot more freedom to express. He has the talent in that area that makes it worth it due to his success rate, but also the times when it doesn't come off aren't too much of a problem. Jack Leitch's ability and responsibility doesn't allow him that freedom. Talent aside, even purely the area of the park he finds himself in, doesn't lend itself to the same options Dom has in terms of changing a game. He can't take as many risks as the downsides of it not coming off are higher, and also if you try to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and lead in the middle of the park, you need the other players to follow. Dom's position doesn't require that. Particularly in games like last night, Keith Lasley should come off the park with no voice left, as he should be spending the game talking: "Hold it here Jack, keep my line" "Press on Jack I'll sit" "Drop in behind me Leitchy, I'll press" "Foot on the ball Jack, slow it down" etc...etc... Now I'm sure he does to the best of his ability, but the problem is that 80% of the game Jack Leitch won't be able to hear a single word Keith Lasley says, as Las is wide left battling for the ball....wide right battling for the ball....on the edge of the box battling for the ball....back on our own by-line battling for the ball.... That's all well and good and it's admirable that he puts such a shift in, but it just means two things. Firstly that the players in those positions aren't doing their job properly, leaving Keith running around all over the place making challenges. Secondly if he's all over the place, then he isn't in the middle of the park....leaving us unbelievably light there for too much of the game. Invariably that leaves us either being completely over-run in midfield, or missing it out completely and firing the ball over the top. Exactly what we are seeing just now, and the reason we are struggling so badly. The other thing is that, yes, Jack Leitch is making poor decisions here and there, and his distribution has been patchy, and again I take your point about young players having to have the balls to step up and take control. But when he gets the ball, look at his options. He has two wide men either side of him who, for all their occasional talent, don't have the discipline or consistency to be predictable. One of my biggest frustrations is the amount of times we have the ball in the middle of the park, the central midfielder is looking to play the ball ahead of Marvin or Lionel, and they don't go....they are screaming for it to feet. Then the next time we have the ball in the middle of the park and we look to play it in to feet and they are off...screaming that they need it ahead of them. That 2 seconds it takes to check is often 2 seconds more than you have in central midfield. There has to be a consistency, and again back to playing as a unit, with more predictability in areas of the field where we can make things happen. Added to that, ahead of him he has an isolated front man who, for all his hard work and endevour, doesn't run in behind, so it's knocking it in to him and then more often just receiving a return pass before having to look wide....see above point. His final option is to play it backwards, which im generally not critical of if it's used to retain possession in a patient game, but in our side it goes back to a centre half who tries to hit Moult with it....see above. Or goes to a full back who launches it up the wing into an area where the hope a wide man will win a foot-race. See above. This isn't strictly a defence of Jack Leitch by the way (although he played so it's him im defending in this case), this applies to whoever is playing in there beside Lasley. It's a problem that stems from the side not playing as a unit. Watching Aberdeen in our game, every single player in their side knows that when they have the ball, player X will be here, player Y will be here, player Z will make a run here. They all know that when they don't have the ball and they see player X move here, I have to tuck in here and in turn player Y will press, or drop or whatever. With that type of discipline, it's easy for a young player to step in and take control of a game that isn't going well...we saw it when we played them in fact. They didn't win that game because they played well, or even played better than us. They won that game because every player knew what they should be doing in any given situation. They knew what they players around them would be doing, and they stuck to it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postiejim Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Watching the post match interview - Baraclough looks frightened and clueless.Sums up most on here ,myself included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 As an addition to your post, Al; I thought Leitch's distribution and performance picked up when Thomas came on. Perhaps the familiar face helped him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nellies Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Laing getting off lightly with last nights performance,blaming law for laing being very poor. The guy is an absolute bomb scare when he has the ball and when he is running towards his own goal. Hes one of the problems we concede so many goals 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 I think in most games we have started well this season and then drifted out of it due to concentration, Baraclough's subs, defensive errors, etc. Last night we started absolutely dreadfully and then improved a bit in the second half and then ramped it up when they ran out of petrol. Least we got there, three Premiership teams didn't. A new level will need to be found by a lot of them v Killie or we'll be bottom on Saturday night. Ripley - kept us in it with a couple of saves but don't understand why he was motionless at the goal Law - dragged all over the place Laing - Not a clue what was going on, absolute shocker of a performance Kennedy - unremarkable but OK Chalmers - decent going forward, naive at the back Ainsworth - questionable attitude but grew into it Lasley - broke up the play, distribution disappointing Leitch - as Lasley Johnson - contributed nothing CLarkson - subdued Moult - Drifted back to try and make things happen and when Thomas came on was able to play as a forward more. Fine finish and good all round display with little support for 75 minutes. Watt - didn't get long enough to judge, did fine. McDonald - lively and determined but several poor decisions and touches Thomas - some mistakes but at least looked lively and most likely to make something happen I'm slowly making my way through this thread, but had text my mate my man by man reviews, and they were remarkably similar to yours. Just to run through team last night. Ripley- thought he could've got goal and spilled for disallowed goal, but made 2-3 very good saves. Law - boo boy favourite, not sure why it's his fault Laing is a bombscare, too soft in tackle, trier but not that good. Laing - had a 'mare, cost us goal and got torn a new hole by their no. 9 Kennedy - won everything that came near him Chalmers - gets pass marks, steady enough Johnson - anonymous, disinterested, passenger Leitch and lasley - not involved as we constantly launched it from Ripley to moult. Gave the ball away too often. Ainsworth - got into game after their goal, made a lot of mistakes and nothing came off in first 70 minutes. Clarkson - dreadful, not involved, too far from moult also see Leitch and lasley Moult - started poorly, but won me over, was isolated, but ran all night and brought a few saves from their keeper. Thomas - motm, similar to faddy Mcdonald - not his best night, but quality dragged us through. Watt - looked solid in his few minutes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weesacs Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Bara said he wanted the fringe players tae grab there chance ,any look like they might have ? As has been mentioned - Dom Thomas, he should be starting on Saturday Fair play to Leitch, Thomas, McDonald and Moult, they have dragged us through tonight. More promising is how good an understanding the three attackers that finished the game seem to have. Ainsworth started to make better runs aswell after the changes. I was disappointed in Leitch - gave the ball away far too often For those that were there at both games was that better or worse than Aberdeen? Being the only game Ive seen in person? miles worse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Laing getting off lightly with last nights performance,blaming law for laing being very poor. The guy is an absolute bomb scare when he has the ball and when he is running towards his own goal. Hes one of the problems we concede so many goals I don't agree. Yes, he played poorly last night but in addition to having to cover for Law he, and Kennedy, had no protection by our central midfield. Opposition players were allowed to run at them. But, yes, Laing did have a poor game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintJohn Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Nice to have Louis Moult's dad on the forum. Welcome! Can't even praise a guy without getting accused of being his Da. Get your facts right, I'm his brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaag Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 where can we see the highlights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaag Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 never mind, found them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn_Broomfield Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 As an addition to your post, Al; I thought Leitch's distribution and performance picked up when Thomas came on. Perhaps the familiar face helped him? I perhaps should have made it clear when I included Leitch in the players with pass marks. The addition of McDonald and Thomas greatly improved his options with the ball. The change of shape sealed up the gaping hole in the middle of the park that Lasley and Leitch had previously been struggling with when trying to do the job of 4 players. I'll need reminded who set up the equaliser... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelman1991 Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 A poor game from our perspective but we did win through and I guess thats the important thing. East Fife were tricky opponents and were certainly fired up. They were very competitive and won most of the individual battles until they tired around the 70/75 minute mark. They closed our guys quickly, put in great tackles, won most of the aerial balls, were strong enough to win 50/50 balls - and thats where their success was founded. We were the exact opposite. On the ball they were quick, tidy, passed the ball well and ran well off the ball. In short we simply weren't competitive enough, much like the St Johnstone game last Saturday. Thought Ripley was ok and had one fantastic save; Kennedy was reasonable; Moult put in a great hard working shift with little support and was rewarded with a goal. Thomas was lively when he came on but needs to improve his final ball - if and when he does that he'll be a match winner. Skippy looked lively when he came on but that was against a tiring defence. Law had a real nightmare. This impacted on an off form Laing, who was affected by Law's performance. Leitch and Lasley were outbattled by their lower league opponents and went missing when we were under pressure. Their service/support to Clarkson/Moult/Ainsworth and Johnson was also poor. Ainsworth and Johnson found it hard against multiple defenders and suffered from poor service again. Clarkson worked hard but received little support and played too deep. Our shortcomings are exactly the same as those that have bedevilled us this season and last and remain unaddressed. Another point evident last night was that we need to cut out aerial balls - we just don't have the height up front to benefit from them. We're through to the next round but the team certainly put us through hell last night. Had Austin's offside goal stood the mood amongst our fans would have turned very nasty indeed. You could sense the anger rising to the surface when he scored East Fife's goal. Its quite some time since I've felt that sense of raw animosity. You really need to let this unhealthy attitude towards Law go. Its clear you just don't like the lad and while he was and has been poor, he certainly isn't alone. To blame him for Laing's poor performances is bordering on the laughable. Laing was given the proverbial runaround, because he was pitted against a more skilful and equally as strong opponent, nothing to do with having to cover for Law, making up for Law, or anything else to do with Law. The goal in particular was totally Laing's fault, he gave up!!!!! Appreciate in general your opinions on this board, but you really need to focus on something other than Law - there's another 8 or 9 who could just as easily be the target of your ire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 You really need to let this unhealthy attitude towards Law go. Its clear you just don't like the lad and while he was and has been poor, he certainly isn't alone. To blame him for Laing's poor performances is bordering on the laughable. Laing was given the proverbial runaround, because he was pitted against a more skilful and equally as strong opponent, nothing to do with having to cover for Law, making up for Law, or anything else to do with Law. The goal in particular was totally Laing's fault, he gave up!!!!! Appreciate in general your opinions on this board, but you really need to focus on something other than Law - there's another 8 or 9 who could just as easily be the target of your ire. A bit harsh to say it's laughable. A right back who consistently lets players skip past him and chases the ball rather than marking the men he's supposed to is always going to cause problems for the centre half on this side. The first thing you're told as a full back is never show your number to the opposition; Law does it every time someone's running at him. Laing was consistently left exposed because Law left him with too much to do; every single person around me at the game last night agreed with that. I lost count of how many times he was caught high up the park and jogged back to help out, or the play bypassed him entirely, or he wasn't strong enough in the tackle to stop someone or at least slow down a break. It's no coincidence that East Fife stopped getting in down the right side of our team when Law went off and Watt came on. It was instantly obvious where the problem was from about 15 minutes in; East Fife had 3 players around Law waiting on him making mistakes they could then exploit, something they did time and time again. Laing was turned inside out a few times - he still did more than Law did in the air and in possession (when he didn't make mistakes, which I will acknowledge he did with the ball at this feet and he does need to be stronger in the tackle at times). He's far from the finished article but he looked a lot more assured with Watt beside him for the last 20/25 minutes than he did with Law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Appreciate in general your opinions on this board, but you really need to focus on something other than Law - there's another 8 or 9 who could just as easily be the target of your ire. Law was last night, and this season in general, absolutely brutal. He's failing at the very basics of being a full-back by either a) failing to effectively show a winger to the corner and b) actually making a tackle. I saw someone previously suggesting he was soft in the tackle, I'd go further and suggest that he doesn't even look like he knows how to tackle. He lets players run and run and run towards him without getting particularly close or strong, which is just about manageable if he's able to put a tackle in and win the ball, or vice-versa, holding them wide but can't tackle, but he can't do either at the moment. On another, Baraclough related note: Why on earth weren't our full-backs getting involved last night? Neither are included for their sterling defensive work (you'd imagine), and every time the ball went out to Johnson/Thomas and Ainsworth, East Fife were doubling up on them and shutting them down. On the one occasion Law got up and overlapped Ainsworth, we created a chance. I felt like I was being absolutely thick watching it, but time and again, the ball goes out wide, to be met with two players in front of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 As an addition to your post, Al; I thought Leitch's distribution and performance picked up when Thomas came on. Perhaps the familiar face helped him? I don't disagree mate, it definitely did as far as I'm concerned. Familiarity may be a factor given they grew up in the same side, but this is where I'd say Ya Bezzer's previous point about being able to slot straight in comes in to play. Jack Leitch has been training with this squad as long as most others have, and much longer than some. Familiarity shouldn't be a problem. For me it's a good example of why this game isn't as simple as "player X isn't effective = change player X". We need to look at the reasons behind why player X isn't effective and address those because if you don't, then replacing him with player Y just means that player Y won't be able effective either...how long have we bemoaned ineffective substitutions? It's not always because the player coming on isn't doing it, it's because it's just changing the plaster without stopping the bleeding. As pretty much everyone has mentioned, Thomas worked harder, did his job and offered more reliable options, as did Scott McDonald. You know where they will be, you know the areas of the park they will attack and when, you can read when to support them, when to run off them, and it's that knowledge and predictability of what players will do, that made such a difference. It made much more of a difference to the effectiveness of the centre of the midfield than subbing Leitch would have. The hard thing is, that when it clicks for our wide men they are unplayable...the unfortunate thing is that by the time we find out it's not one of those times, we're already 20 mins into a game. Of course, the main turnaround was that East Fife were dead on their feet after 90 whereas we still had some in the tank, but that's a whole other issue. (Although one I believe we wouldn't have needed in order to get out of jail, had the above problems been addressed on the tactics board and in training). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelman1991 Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 A bit harsh to say it's laughable. A right back who consistently lets players skip past him and chases the ball rather than marking the men he's supposed to is always going to cause problems for the centre half on this side. The first thing you're told as a full back is never show your number to the opposition; Law does it every time someone's running at him. Laing was consistently left exposed because Law left him with too much to do; every single person around me at the game last night agreed with that. I lost count of how many times he was caught high up the park and jogged back to help out, or the play bypassed him entirely, or he wasn't strong enough in the tackle to stop someone or at least slow down a break. It's no coincidence that East Fife stopped getting in down the right side of our team when Law went off and Watt came on. It was instantly obvious where the problem was from about 15 minutes in; East Fife had 3 players around Law waiting on him making mistakes they could then exploit, something they did time and time again. Laing was turned inside out a few times - he still did more than Law did in the air and in possession (when he didn't make mistakes, which I will acknowledge he did with the ball at this feet and he does need to be stronger in the tackle at times). He's far from the finished article but he looked a lot more assured with Watt beside him for the last 20/25 minutes than he did with Law. Too much time spent on 'FIFA or Football Manager' methinks. By your own admission on the Kilmarnock thread and here, East Fife spotted his side of the park as a weakness and had 3 or 4 (your words, not mine tracking him). Now that seems a bit of a mismatch and yet he is expected to not only patrol and defend against so many, but also provide flank protection for Laing - Christ I'm not even sure our full-back saviour Luke Watt would be able to stem that tide. On that basis, perhaps Laing and the winger (either Ainsworth/Johnson might have offered Law a bit more assistance). Watt's and by your suggestion Laing's assurance came as the 3 East Fife pitted against Law, were for the most part knackered as were the rest of their team. I'm not here to protect Law or defend his lack of basic abilities, but I stand by my comment that Laing's issues last night were not of Law's making and that any suggestion they were are laughable and certainly not harsh. He was shite on his own merits, not on someone else's failings. He had an uncomfortable match last night and certainly wasn't the dominant aerial force you would have us believe, he was beaten consistently by the East Fife number 9 (I really need to find out his name), both in the air and on the ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StAndrew7 Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Too much time spent on 'FIFA or Football Manager' methinks. By your own admission on the Kilmarnock thread and here, East Fife spotted his side of the park as a weakness and had 3 or 4 (your words, not mine tracking him). Now that seems a bit of a mismatch and yet he is expected to not only patrol and defend against so many, but also provide flank protection for Laing - Christ I'm not even sure our full-back saviour Luke Watt would be able to stem that tide. On that basis, perhaps Laing and the winger (either Ainsworth/Johnson might have offered Law a bit more assistance). Watt's and by your suggestion Laing's assurance came as the 3 East Fife pitted against Law, were for the most part knackered as were the rest of their team. I'm not here to protect Law or defend his lack of basic abilities, but I stand by my comment that Laing's issues last night were not of Law's making and that any suggestion they were are laughable and certainly not harsh. He was shite on his own merits, not on someone else's failings. He had an uncomfortable match last night and certainly wasn't the dominant aerial force you would have us believe, he was beaten consistently by the East Fife number 9 (I really need to find out his name), both in the air and on the ground. We'll have to agree to disagree then, but I take your points on board. I've (genuinely) never played Football Manager, though. <_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busta Nut Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 We'll have to agree to disagree then, but I take your points on board. I've (genuinely) never played Football Manager, though. <_> yer missing oot, great game. Despite what ye hear though it doesn't have any side effects on your ability to judge a player or game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joewarkfanclub Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Its hard to know where to start with a performance like that. East Fife were very organised and disciplined and their players stuck well to the gameplan which was clearly to frustrate us and get the ball to Nathan Austin as quickly and as often as possible. We showed a total and utter lack of composure on the ball and resorted to long diagonals to Moult. All that resulted in was East Fife getting more and more of the ball and it was no surprise when they eventually scored and who scored it. Either our players arent doing what they are being asked (which the manager alluded to after the St Johnstone game) or his tactics were rank. Either way some home truths need to be spoken in the dressing room and get it sorted out. Far too many basic individual errors arent helping, but thats usually a sign of players who are not comfortable with what they are being asked to do and/or are low on confidence. The plus side was that, unlike Saturday, the manager made the right changes last night and we dug ourselves out of a hole. Hopefully after last night he can identify the players he can trust to do a job and those he cant. Massive game for him on Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one m in motherwell Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 Surely the reason East Fife had numbers on Law was more because he's an awful full back, prone to fairly basic errors, and its therefore a bit of a given that with a little pressure the opposition could win the ball? I doubt their approach was something that they just dreamed up during the game. I've nothing against the guy, but Law is definitely the weakest link in our team. Everyone else on the park, when on form, can be a pretty impressive proposition, but I've yet to see a game where Law offers anything, or even suggests that he's playing within himself. The problem is that his poor performance has knock on impacts on others - his lack of quality either leaves Laing having to track across and leave McManus (hardly the most mobile of players) to cover two positions. Likewise, without support from the full back its difficult for Ainsworth to contribute anything more than being a target for a hopeful hoof up the park (see the example last night, when the overlap of Law with Ainsworth worked on a couple of occasions). Watt, raw as he might be, looks to be a far more natural full back than Law ever has. I just hope that Bara opens his eyes and realises this sooner rather than later. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 You really need to let this unhealthy attitude towards Law go. My writings have been called many things before including disgusting and obscene but "unhealthy" is a first. Laing had a poor game last night, there's no escaping that fact. Thats by no means all down to Josh Law. In my view Law is out of his depth in our league and he is a factor, but no more than that, in Laing's performances. In short his performances have given Laing an unwanted additional problem but Laing was quite capable of being poor in his own right last night. Others have suggested that I've been unfairly critical of our central midfield but in my view right back and central midfield are and have been responsible for the majority, but not the entire cause of our defensive problems. If we're consistently losing so many goals and losing out in the middle of the park then something somewhere is causing the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbcmfc Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 I'm also struggling to see how Law can be to blame for Laing having a nightmare. Law seems to be the favourite target for the boo boys, and I don't really see it. In some of our worst performances last season he was the one player that was getting pass marks, and didn't feel he did a great deal wrong last night. He was far from our worst player last night! Luke Watt did look ok, but he played 10 minutes against a part time team who had played 110 minutes, I'd have looked like Dani Alves if I'd come on when he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one m in motherwell Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 As I say, I don't have anything against him, or even think that he's not trying. You can see the guy just doesn't have it at this level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 There is no defence of Law. Every team we play targets his wing, that speaks volumes for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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