The Players From Our Youth Setup

[Jay]

I am beginning to think that the failings of our youth system, coupled with Accies' success of theirs is beginning to cost us attracting the players we want in their formative years. If I was a parent of a child local to the area and my kid had an offer from Motherwell and from Accies, as much as it pains me to say it, I would advise them to go to Accies as they would have much more chance of making a career of it there than Motherwell, if the recent past is anything to go by.

 

Exactly this. Whether or not we have the resources and the desire to develop young players, we're not going to be able to do so without the young players coming to the club in the first place. When you have clubs like Accies continually bringing young players into the side, we have to be able to sell our club to youngsters with potential in order to try and out muscle the others clubs around sniffing about the same players. There is very little evidence for a good few years now that being a young player at Fir Park is going to lead to anything close to a proper chance to impress, other than the odd cameo appearance from the bench.

 

Saturday summed it up for me - even in a situation where we were decimated in the middle of the park, our management would rather shuffle around half the team and play guys out of position than give the younger players a chance. That says it all. There are cases all over the world where a young player is thrown in at the deep end due to injuries and suspensions, grabs the chance with both hands, and goes on to impress far more than was originally expected. Even when things don't go to plan, the fact remains that younger guys waiting in the wings and then getting a gig due to suspension or injury is a regular occurrence at clubs all over the world - yet we go with Law in midfield and Hammell at right-back.

 

We are not producing the talent because the young players we have seemingly aren't good enough for whatever reason, yet we are not going to attract youngsters with genuine quality and potential because clubs like Accies are a far better option in terms of the route to the first-team and being given opportunities. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Unless we start trusting the young players more and giving them further opportunity in the first-team - particularly when we are completely void of players in a certain position and have young players who spend their careers playing in that position - then we will continue to miss out on younger players.

 

If we want to be a club that brings through young talent, we need to start acting like one rather than just continually failing to develop players while blaming it on other factors.

[Al B]

The fans need to play their part as well though. The whole "he just hasny goat it...he's never a fitba player" after 10 games is a massive part of the problem.

[capt_oats]

The fans need to play their part as well though. The whole "he just hasny goat it...he's never a fitba player" after 10 games is a massive part of the problem.

 

Absolutely. During the game against Cove I had some utter clown sat behind me berating Ben Hall for passing the ball square and not getting it up the park. We were 3-0 up at the time.

[Jay]

The fans need to play their part as well though. The whole "he just hasny goat it...he's never a fitba player" after 10 games is a massive part of the problem.

 

10 games is a very generous estimate for a lot of 'Well fans unfortunately.

[Guest]

I've always been one for saying if they are good enough, they'll get a chance.

 

Is exactly where I stand, as well. Lawless is always the example who's rolled out as the 'one that got away'. No harm to the boy, but he plays for a team that isn't as good as us, dropped to a lower level, and wasn't as good as Murphy, McFadden, Humphrey or Ojamaa. That was true then, and that's true now, playing more games wouldn't have made him better than them, he simply wasn't that good.

 

Look at the likes of Falkirk,they have 19 & 20 year old lads leaving to sign for English teams having played up to 70 or 80 first team games.We have the occasional youngster break through then 3 or 4 lads sit around the fringes for 3 years before leaving.

 

Aye, Falkirk, who spend their time sitting around the top 4/5 teams in the Championship, playing against Part-Time teams for half the season.

 

Our youth system isn't perfect, but the idea that we never blood players simply isn't true. Over the past few years we've seen Reynolds (100+ appearances), Hutchinson (100+ appearances), Saunders (50+ appearances) (until his legs fell off), McHugh (50+ appearances), Angol (50+ appearances), Cummins (25 appearances), Carswell (50+ appearances), Forbes (50+ appearances), Erwin (30+ appearances), Kerr (30+ appearances), Moore (20+ appearances), Leitch (20+ appearances), we're seeing Hall now and probably some others I've missed.

 

There's an argument there for who is 'our' youth, and who isn't, but that's a reasonable sample of our young players who have come played in our team who either have or haven't made it. Guys like McHugh, Forbes and Carswell particularly, were given a solid crack of the whip, but simply weren't good enough to cut it for us. You can debate why we aren't producing players that are good enough, and that's something I don't have an answer to, but I just don't buy that we don't give players a chance and I've never bought that chucking players in will make them better. Right now, I'd like to see more of Leitch, Cadden, Thomas and Watt, and as with everything we do, it isn't perfect. I'd be surprised if we let any of them go without giving them more of a punt.

[MelvinBragg]

The fans need to play their part as well though. The whole "he just hasny goat it...he's never a fitba player" after 10 games is a massive part of the problem.

A huge part of the problem. I read on here someone saying that they doubted Cadden had the quality to make it. Has he even started a first team game?

 

Like I said, even if these players aren't regular starters, it might save the club money by not paying the wages of an Omar Daley, Jake Taylor or Craig Reid if they are good enough to provide cover...

[Joeboy]

 

Is exactly where I stand, as well. Lawless is always the example who's rolled out as the 'one that got away'. No harm to the boy, but he plays for a team that isn't as good as us, dropped to a lower level, and wasn't as good as Murphy, McFadden, Humphrey or Ojamaa. That was true then, and that's true now, playing more games wouldn't have made him better than them, he simply wasn't that good.

 

 

Aye, Falkirk, who spend their time sitting around the top 4/5 teams in the Championship, playing against Part-Time teams for half the season.

 

Our youth system isn't perfect, but the idea that we never blood players simply isn't true. Over the past few years we've seen Reynolds (100+ appearances), Hutchinson (100+ appearances), Saunders (50+ appearances) (until his legs fell off), McHugh (50+ appearances), Angol (50+ appearances), Cummins (25 appearances), Carswell (50+ appearances), Forbes (50+ appearances), Erwin (30+ appearances), Kerr (30+ appearances), Moore (20+ appearances), Leitch (20+ appearances), we're seeing Hall now and probably some others I've missed.

 

There's an argument there for who is 'our' youth, and who isn't, but that's a reasonable sample of our young players who have come played in our team who either have or haven't made it. Guys like McHugh, Forbes and Carswell particularly, were given a solid crack of the whip, but simply weren't good enough to cut it for us. You can debate why we aren't producing players that are good enough, and that's something I don't have an answer to, but I just don't buy that we don't give players a chance and I've never bought that chucking players in will make them better. Right now, I'd like to see more of Leitch, Cadden, Thomas and Watt, and as with everything we do, it isn't perfect. I'd be surprised if we let any of them go without giving them more of a punt.

 

I don't know if I'm having that. Of that list, Hutchinson is a youth product of Wallsend Boys Club, Saunders of Queen's Park, Francis-Angol of Spurs, Cummins of Everton and Kerr of Birmingham (despite the fact he was here before he went south). There is a difference between blooding youngsters and signing other people's youngsters and playing them.

 

You can add Steven Hetherington, Jonathan Page and even Dom Thomas to that list I suppose (pretty sure he left Celtic at 16 and went directly into a pro contract with our 19s).

 

Half of the guys you are quoting there haven't came through our academy, which shows me that when we do trust youngsters in our first team, we only trust the development methods of other sides, not of ourselves.

 

I also wonder if you could say McHugh, Carswell and Forbes had a fair crack of the whip. Certainly, when all three departed I didn't want to keep any of them, but McHugh only started 15 times for us and I reckon you'd be pushed to find many of them in consecutive order.

 

He wasn't given any loan football till he was 22 so all he had to develop was ten minute bench cameos or under 20s football. I watched a lot of the 20s in the 2012/13 and 2013/14 seasons as my best mate's wee brother was playing in the team. McHugh had stagnated so much from playing at that level that there were games it looked so easy for him, probably simply because he was bigger and more physically developed than the guys he was playing against. At that age he should have been playing against adults, not kids. A prime example of the under 20s format failing someone.

 

You talk about McHugh getting a chance. Gannon gave him a chance sporadically. Craig Brown signed Blackman, Casagolda and Gow, as well as having Murphy and Sutton already to put him down to sixth choice- yet still didn't loan him out. McCall signed countless strikers over his time here and even played guys like Daley up front to avoid choosing McHugh. When you can quote that we signed Casagolda to put McHugh down the pecking order, I reckon "fair crack of the whip" becomes null and void.

 

I'm led to believe that Carswell asked McCall continually to go out on loan, but McCall feared losing his cover. When Jenno departed, we moved Law inside. When Law departed we signed Lawson and it was only when Lawson didn't hit the heights that he was given a chance. We used to often bring in a defender from the bench and play Hateley centre mid to avoid bringing Carswell in.

 

As for Forbes, his "fair crack of the whip" came in a four to five month spell, where he managed to score nine goals from midfield. Craig Brown only ever played him at left mid, a position he clearly wasn't suited to. He did lack fitness/engine/speed, especially for a youngster, but he had genuine talent when he broke through. After the Brown era, under McCall, the only times I can recall him getting a game in centre mid were against Queen's Park and Clyde in the cup, a game against St.Mirren when Lasley was suspended and an appearance against Inverness when he was subbed on and subbed off.

 

I don't think those examples, if you asked them, would say Motherwell done right about their development. Where these guys are now maybe part reflection on their ability, part reflection on failings in youth development.

[Bigeeze]

The fans need to play their part as well though. The whole "he just hasny goat it...he's never a fitba player" after 10 games is a massive part of the problem.

In some cases its after 10 minutes after coming off the bench in 2 or 3 games before seasoned pros get the above treatment never mind young boys trying to make a name for themselves. As has been said before we are a fickle bunch

[numpty]

Craig Brown signed Blackman, Casagolda and Gow

 

I see big Esteban has scored 22 goals in 19 games so far this season. Mibbes we should get him back

[Desp]

 

 

I don't think those examples, if you asked them, would say Motherwell done right about their development. Where these guys are now maybe part reflection on their ability, part reflection on failings in youth development.

 

You've obviously done a bit of research on this Joe, so what's your thoughts on how we fix this?

 

On one hand, you've gone about various first team managers not giving certain players a proper chance, and I acknowledge the points you make with the examples you've shown. The thing is though, are you blaming the first team manager for not giving these players 15-20 starts in a row, or are you blaming the youth coaches who brought them through between the ages of 13-18 for not getting them ready/good enought to step up?

 

You mentioned it before, but kids at 12, 13, 14 years old in this part of the country, will probably have 4 choices if they're good enough. Celtic, Rangers, Hamilton and Motherwell. Due to our recent record, we'd probably come in 4th in that list of preferrable choices.

 

Players like Forbes, McHugh, Carswell, Lawless. Where does the blame lie there? The player himself? Manager? Youth coach? Do you think, if coached/managed correctly, any of those players should still be at Fir Park? I was a fan of Carswell, although you may well be right that being overlooked constantly may have damaged his confidence.

[Guest]

I don't think those examples, if you asked them, would say Motherwell done right about their development. Where these guys are now maybe part reflection on their ability, part reflection on failings in youth development.

 

I guess that's fundamentally where we differ, Joe, and that's fair enough. Lawless, as I mentioned, dropped a level and came back. All of the rest that I've mentioned have done the same, and I'd be surprised if any of them did. All of the ones I've mentioned have ended up at their level, I'd say. None of them have become anything that we'd regret letting go when we did with more football, I take the view that having them play more games with us at 20 wouldn't have made them vastly better player that we'd want playing for us at 25.

 

Like I said, whether they're 'ours' or not can be argued for sure, but as they come into the team, they're our young players, and perhaps, it's probably more telling that we're picking up Spurs 18 year old's rather than having our own 18 year olds. That in itself raises more questions, which I think you're raising, and I can't disagree with.

 

When talking about McHugh, for example, I'd say that yeah, he did get a fair crack, as with Carswell. The difference between them and Murphy/Reynolds/Hutchinson who did 'make it', is that the latter players came into the team, staked a claim and kept themselves at that level more or less throughout their time at Fir Park.

[middleeastdave]

Another worrying point is when was the last goalkeeper that came through the youth, not many Keith McRae could be last that I can remember

[Mad Dog]

Ally Maxwell?

[Haggischomper]

Another factor is stability at the club. I was shocked to look back and see that since 2006 we have had 10 managers, albeit that includes temp appointments like Gordon Young, Kenny Black and Stephen Craigan. It's still a lot of turnover and is bound to have had an adverse affect on the youth set up, it's aims and aspirations

[weeyin]

Mark McGhee talks a good game on blooming young players. His track record suggests otherwise...

He doesn't have any record with our new owner though, and he is calling the shots. If Les makes it a requirement to blood new players (and it seems he has), then it's up to McGhee to deliver.

[weeyin]

Another worrying point is when was the last goalkeeper that came through the youth, not many Keith McRae could be last that I can remember

Keepers at any club rarely come through the ranks. It's the nature of the position. I'd struggle to think of any current top league goalie who played with the same team at youth level.

[weeyin]

Of course there is a wider issue to address here, and that is the general production and development of Scottish footballing talent. The nation as a whole hasn't exactly been churning them out recently.

[MelvinBragg]

Another factor is stability at the club. I was shocked to look back and see that since 2006 we have had 10 managers, albeit that includes temp appointments like Gordon Young, Kenny Black and Stephen Craigan. It's still a lot of turnover and is bound to have had an adverse affect on the youth set up, it's aims and aspirations

You're right in that at a club like ours, it probably does impact on the chances of a player getting a chance. A manager will always have one eye on job security and probably feels an experienced player is a better bet for results.

 

However, and Falkirk and Accies are good examples of this, there's an argument that the youth development side should be ringfenced in that no matter who the manager is, their remit remains the same. Obviously every manager is going to have an idea of the type of player he wants but with the right approach at youth level, you could probably produce players to meet most managers needs...

[Kmcalpin]

You mentioned it before, but kids at 12, 13, 14 years old in this part of the country, will probably have 4 choices if they're good enough. Celtic, Rangers, Hamilton and Motherwell.

You can probably add Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee United to that list.

[superward]

You can probably add Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee United to that list.

Yep, I was about to type the same thing.

 

Evidenced the other way when Craig Moore got released by Hearts when young un and we picked him up.

[Kmcalpin]

Half of the guys you are quoting there haven't came through our academy, which shows me that when we do trust youngsters in our first team, we only trust the development methods of other sides, not of ourselves.

 

What do you mean by "our academy"? If you look at Dundee United for example, much probably most of their top young players didn't come through their much vaunted academy either. Players like Souttar, Spittal, Gauld, and Robertson were predated from other clubs when they were in their mid / late teens. I'd like to find out where Hamilton sourced their youngsters. Did players like Crawford, Gordon, Hendrie, Devlin etc all sign up when they 11 years of age?

 

Most of us agree that our youth system hasn't delivered as much as it should have done. As the Captain has said, we've fallen down in developing talent in their late teens. However, is it also true that we are simply not picking up the brightest young talents? Its easier to bring through a young lad if he's got great potential than if he's got reasonable potential.

 

I don't want us to fall into the media inspired Hibs syndrome as I used to call it. young player + Hibs = great young player. Is it possible that Mark McGhee and / or Stephen Craigan / Steve Robinson simply don't rate our current crop of youngsters or that they are simply not good enough? I like to see us bring through our own young talent but it has to be real talent. Our youth system went downhill after John Park left us for Hibs. He was the guy who picked up Faddy and Pearo.

[Desp]

 

I don't know if I'm having that. Of that list, Hutchinson is a youth product of Wallsend Boys Club, Saunders of Queen's Park, Francis-Angol of Spurs, Cummins of Everton and Kerr of Birmingham (despite the fact he was here before he went south). There is a difference between blooding youngsters and signing other people's youngsters and playing them.

 

Just picking out a couple of examples here, Joe. You've said that Hutchinson is a youth product of Wallsend Boys Club, and Kerr of Birmingham.

 

Hutchinson came through the youth production at Wallsend and moved to Motherwell at 16 = Wallsend product.

Kerr came through the youth production at Motherwell and moved to Birmingham at 16 = Birmingham product.

 

That's contradictory is it not? As has been said before, if you go through those who have come through at various other clubs (Dundee Utd being the prime example) they pick up their youngsters elsewhere too. I'd imagine it's a rare occurance for a player nowadays to be at the one club from a very, very early age.

[steelboy]

Lasley, Hammell, McFadden and Craigan all came to the club aged over 16.

 

If a player plays in the age group sides then it's fair to call them home grown.

[Kmcalpin]

Lasley, Hammell, McFadden and Craigan all came to the club aged over 16.

 

If a player plays in the age group sides then it's fair to call them home grown.

I think Stevie Hammell was picked up and then rejected by Leeds United before he came to us.

[superward]

Pearson only came to us at about 16 as well I am sure. Picked him up after he was playing in the Scottish schools final or something.

 

I think if you come to us and play in the age groups like Steelboy said then you count as our youth setup. Wether that's u13 or u17.