Kmcalpin Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Budget is less than last year so unless prize money for the league has dropped then that can't be right. I'm sure it was said last night that Les had increased the playing budget last year which would be consistent with the influx of players coming in under Ian Baraclough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeboy Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 I can't process how we allowed Baraclough to sign so many players. Surely the money spent then when we were signing every man and his dug is hampering our chances now. I'm obviously glad that we are budgeting sensibly now, but it was lunacy whoever was sanctioning these decisions. For starters, looking at our season as a whole, we could definitely have gone without Joe Chalmers, Craig Samson, Wes Fletcher, Theo Robinson, Jake Taylor and David Clarkson. On the face of it, discounting Fletcher's winner on day one, these guys added little to our season. I'd even chuck Morgaro Gomis into the mix as well. It's frustrating that we are trying to make a tiny budget stretch just now, when last season we wasted at least six wages pre-Christmas and four post-Christmas in my eyes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 I can't process how we allowed Baraclough to sign so many players. Surely the money spent then when we were signing every man and his dug is hampering our chances now. I'm obviously glad that we are budgeting sensibly now, but it was lunacy whoever was sanctioning these decisions. For starters, looking at our season as a whole, we could definitely have gone without Joe Chalmers, Craig Samson, Wes Fletcher, Theo Robinson, Jake Taylor and David Clarkson. On the face of it, discounting Fletcher's winner on day one, these guys added little to our season. I'd even chuck Morgaro Gomis into the mix as well. It's frustrating that we are trying to make a tiny budget stretch just now, when last season we wasted at least six wages pre-Christmas and four post-Christmas in my eyes. All of which I gather was funded through a Les loan that we'll be paying back for years to come. Really concerning that nobody at the club was able to pull in the reigns on reckless spending at a time when 'self-sufficient' was the buzz phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Really concerning that nobody at the club was able to pull in the reigns on reckless spending at a time when 'self-sufficient' was the buzz phrase. Who owns the club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMWellfan Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Posted here as relates to what we can afford in wages etc... Budget for next season is based on 10th place with no player sales and no cup runs. Confirmed at the WS night tonight. Thoughts? Fine - we need financial stability, so no point budgeting for imaginary sales and high league finishes. I wouldn't mind if the club set it's budget there for the next three years. I fear another administration event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Who owns the club? Yeah precisely and he should be held accountable for irresponsible spending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wispy Flossy Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 All of which I gather was funded through a Les loan that we'll be paying back for years to come. Really concerning that nobody at the club was able to pull in the reigns on reckless spending at a time when 'self-sufficient' was the buzz phrase. One 'former' director had concerns 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 One 'former' director had concerns I can imagine. We appear to be in a right old mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted May 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Budget for next season is based on 10th place with no player sales and no cup runs. Confirmed at the WS night tonight. Thoughts? That's what we should be budgeting for every season in my opinion, and I've made that point before. If we attain a higher level of success or sell on a player for a decent wedge then we can look at how best to invest the profit as & when, but 10th and no cup run is how we should be budgeting. I also had a feeling that the glut of signings under Baraclough would come back to bite us on the arse. A few disagreed with me at the time, but I was confused that Les was preaching about staying within budget and cutting our cloth only to go out and sign a shitload of players, especially when we should have been drafting from our youth team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wee_alpha Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 That's what we should be budgeting for every season in my opinion, and I've made that point before. If we attain a higher level of success or sell on a player for a decent wedge then we can look at how best to invest the profit as & when, but 10th and no cup run is how we should be budgeting. I also had a feeling that the glut of signings under Baraclough would come back to bite us on the arse. A few disagreed with me at the time, but I was confused that Les was preaching about staying within budget and cutting our cloth only to go out and sign a shitload of players, especially when we should have been drafting from our youth team. I think there was a panic set in that we were going to go (straight) down and that's how they decided to try and prevent it. I guess if Johnson goes for a decent fee it would compensate somewhat. As for current budgets I agree with what you are saying. It might mean we don't get in the same the level of player, but with decent coaching and hopefully youth players coming through we should be able to achieve a minimum of 10th, and you never know we might win a couple of cup games, or sell a player for some money! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted May 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 I think there was a panic set in that we were going to go (straight) down and that's how they decided to try and prevent it. I guess if Johnson goes for a decent fee it would compensate somewhat. As for current budgets I agree with what you are saying. It might mean we don't get in the same the level of player, but with decent coaching and hopefully youth players coming through we should be able to achieve a minimum of 10th, and you never know we might win a couple of cup games, or sell a player for some money! The gist I got from McMahon last night at that AGM is that we're going to be stretched financially this year, and that we're hoping that the increase in TV money the season after next will see us okay. I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see either one of or both Moult and Johnson go this season if halfway decent offers come in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 It's also early in the 5 year plan and, I believe, a loss was expected at this stage. The important thing is that we do continue to bring spending back under control. Les definitely gave the organization of the club's infrastructure a much needed overhaul. And I believe the longer term plan of small transfer fees and developing youngsters with a view to selling each year is definitely the way to go. In recent times we lost focus on the selling part. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well Up For It! Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 I wouldn't be at all surprised if we see either one of or both Moult and Johnson go this season if halfway decent offers come in. And I believe the longer term plan of small transfer fees and developing youngsters with a view to selling each year is definitely the way to go. In recent times we lost focus on the selling part. I just hope the club now has the stones - similar to Hibs/Dundee Utd/Hearts/etc - to slap proper prices on players heads. We also have been systematically poor at biging up our talent in the media. Perfect example is Greg Stewart at Dundee. Decent player, not a world beater, deserves a crack at higher level, Dundee have built him up a lot, slapped a £1.5m price on his head and said they are happy to let him leave for nothing next year. He will be sold this summer for circa 750k - 1m, which in my mind is his value. I would argue Moult is a better player already and Johnson has massive potential to be a proper star. Will be amazed if we get anything near half a million for either one of them, which is way below their value. We have always been a club that when it does sell, sells for buttons as "something is better than nothing." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Who is going to pay £750,000 for Greg Stewart? If Johnson had the potential to be a proper star he would have a lot more goals and assists for us than he has so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted May 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 I just hope the club now has the stones - similar to Hibs/Dundee Utd/Hearts/etc - to slap proper prices on players heads. We also have been systematically poor at biging up our talent in the media. Perfect example is Greg Stewart at Dundee. Decent player, not a world beater, deserves a crack at higher level, Dundee have built him up a lot, slapped a £1.5m price on his head and said they are happy to let him leave for nothing next year. He will be sold this summer for circa 750k - 1m, which in my mind is his value. I would argue Moult is a better player already and Johnson has massive potential to be a proper star. Will be amazed if we get anything near half a million for either one of them, which is way below their value. We have always been a club that when it does sell, sells for buttons as "something is better than nothing." Circumstances dictate what we are offered for players. When our Chairman is sitting at a Q&A telling everyone that we'll be finding it tough financially this year he's basically telling other clubs to lowball us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Well Up For It! Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Who is going to pay £750,000 for Greg Stewart? If Johnson had the potential to be a proper star he would have a lot more goals and assists for us than he has so far. Anyone that wants to sign him. That's buttons to a lot of the teams that will be looking at him, and with Dundee slapping a £1.5m price tag on him then will need to be that kinda money or he won't be going anywhere this summer. He's worth 750k for me - would say Moult & Johnson are worth £1m each. Problem is we always sell ourselves short. Johnson has could easily make it at higher level for me. Needs to work on consistency, but the ability is there. Hence why i said POTENTIAL to be a proper star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 That's just fantasy land stuff. Brighton bought Murphy for £1.7m, Johnny Russell moved to Derby for £750,000 and you think Greg Stewart (signed on a free from Arbroath and couldn't lace either of their boots) is going to attract a £1m bid? Dundee can 'slap' whatever price tag they want on a player, English clubs aren't stupid. If you look at how many players have been moving from Scotland to England and which English clubs have been paying transfer fees it looks extremely unlikely that English clubs are going to be spending much on SPL players this summer or for the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 When our Chairman is sitting at a Q&A telling everyone that we'll be finding it tough financially this year he's basically telling other clubs to lowball us. As far as I know there were no other clubs represented at the meeting last night. What he says in private is not what he'll say to other clubs. Jim McMahon won't be pushed around as easily as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted May 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 As far as I know there were no other clubs represented at the meeting last night. What he says in private is not what he'll say to other clubs. Jim McMahon won't be pushed around as easily as you think. It doesn't matter if other clubs were represented at the meeting or not, he made it pretty clear from where I was sitting that we're going to be facing a tough year financially. That Q&A last night wasn't "private", it's been widely discussed on this forum and there's even a video of it available online for anyone who wants to watch. In the past we've always accepted lowball offers for players because we needed the money, and by openly admitting that we're facing problems this coming season we're basically telling other clubs that we're not really in a position to knock back any half decent offers we get. Business as usual in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Who have we accepted low ball offers for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted May 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Who have we accepted low ball offers for? No, you're right. Our transfer record has exemplary up to this point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy_P Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 That's a wee bit of a cop out David. Who are the players you believe we've accepted low ball offers for? I don't think anyone would say the transfer record is exemplary, nor would I disagree that the message being sent out occasionally had a whiff of desperation but there several examples of bids that were clearly way below a reasonable valuation that were booted out. So to say we always accept low ball offers is incorrect in my view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bilyboy60 Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 Just about every decent player that we have had been sold for far less than what they were worth over the year to the likes of the old firm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted May 25, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 That's a wee bit of a cop out David. Who are the players you believe we've accepted low ball offers for? I don't think anyone would say the transfer record is exemplary, nor would I disagree that the message being sent out occasionally had a whiff of desperation but there several examples of bids that were clearly way below a reasonable valuation that were booted out. So to say we always accept low ball offers is incorrect in my view I'd say that we sell around 90% of our players for less than they're actually worth. Obviously I'm not privvy to actual transfer fees, but when the actual Chairman and other members of the club admit that we haven't been operating properly in that regard I'm going to believe them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeboy Posted May 25, 2016 Report Share Posted May 25, 2016 I guess what people may find possibly to be quite annoying is how little we put our players in the shop window. We don't seem to draw bids that teams of other players do. Comparing Jamie Murphy and David Goodwillie does it for me. Dundee Utd were constantly talking up his ability and managed to get £2.8 million for him. Whereas, we sold Murphy for £110k for fear of losing him for nothing and throughout his time at the club, I think the biggest bid was £400k from Blackpool, which Murphy himself rejected. I know other factors, such as life choices, play a significant part, but look at the direction each's career has gone since then. Part of me think we could have used better business sense to get a good deal from that. However, on the other hand, we rejected a bid from Rangers for Mark Reynolds (750k-1m based on reports) thinking we were selling ourselves short, yet another big offer didn't come in. Sometimes it's tough to call I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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