2016/17 Ins & Outs

[Andy_P]

Yeah, if Moore wants to leave then that changes the entire dynamic of the point I was making, but the main crux of my argument is that just because he's not going to displace McDonald or Moult at the moment doesn't mean he should be let go.

 

We need around 4 strikers for the 2 slots available, with the other 2 playing as & when required.

 

Not to mention, there'll come a time when both McDonald and Moult are no longer at the club, and hopefully someone like Moore will be ready to make the step up by that point.

I certainly get what you are saying about squad depth. When the debate has surfaced in the past about the success of our youth policy in generating finance I've made the point that whilst the likes of Carswell, Fiztpatrick and McHugh haven't made us money they have contributed to the cause through a couple of hundred odd appearances between them.

 

However what you have to keep in mind with players like that, and Moore if not there already is edging towards it, is that they have a limited shelf life before their presence starts becoming a negative when they block the route to the first team for others.

 

And if, as is suggested, there is going to be a greater emphasis on getting players through the system as early as possible (witness the 16 and 17 year olds in the 20's for example) then even at "just" twenty-one players like Moore are going to find that shelf-life as a backup even more limited.

[David]

I certainly get what you are saying about squad depth. When the debate has surfaced in the past about the success of our youth policy in generating finance I've made the point that whilst the likes of Carswell, Fiztpatrick and McHugh haven't made us money they have contributed to the cause through a couple of hundred odd appearances between them.

 

However what you have to keep in mind with players like that, and Moore if not there already is edging towards it, is that they have a limited shelf life before their presence starts becoming a negative when they block the route to the first team for others.

 

And if, as is suggested, there is going to be a greater emphasis on getting players through the system as early as possible (witness the 16 and 17 year olds in the 20's for example) then even at "just" twenty-one players like Moore are going to find that shelf-life as a backup even more limited.

 

I'm not quite sure that's the case, to be honest.

 

If someone comes through our youth system over the next few years who is good enough to make the jump into the first team, or who is even deemed to be better than Craig Moore by the management team then they'll simply leapfrog him, resulting in him either being content to slide down the pecking order and eventually released by the club, or he'll ask to be moved on.

 

I'm not advocating giving Craig Moore a contract over one of our younger lads who are coming up behind him, I'm simply saying that the idea that we need to go out and trawl the lower reaches of the English game to find someone who can come up here and sit on the bench and perhaps push for a first team start when injuries and suspensions come into play is counterproductive to our supposed policy of bringing through youth.

 

That youth can either be Moore or someone else from our system. I'm just using Moore as an example at the moment because he seems to have accomplished what we always want our younger players to do when they go out on loan. He's performed.

 

We need to be smarter now with our signings, especially considering where our money is coming from. If someone isn't going to improve our regular first team (McDonald), or isn't a younger player with a whole lot of potential (Moult) then we don't need them, unless there's a shortage of youth players coming through.

 

Sure, Moore may not make the cut long-term, but for the moment he's a decent backup and he deserves the chance to give it a go. We don't need another Wes Fletcher or Theo Robinson sitting around doing nothing except keeping our younger boys from coming through.

[Kmcalpin]

 

If someone comes through our youth system over the next few years who is good enough to make the jump into the first team, or who is even deemed to be better than Craig Moore by the management team then they'll simply leapfrog him, resulting in him either being content to slide down the pecking order and eventually released by the club, or he'll ask to be moved on.

 

 

I don't disagree with much of your post but there is another angle to this, which hasn't been raised so far. Quite apart from the footballing aspect, which is important in itself, there's also the financial aspect. Mark McGhee has a finite budget and if he gives a player like Craig Moore or Jack Leitch ie a youngish player on whom the jury is still out another contract that then reduces the cash pot to be spent on younger players coming through and it maybe that a promising young lad is told he's no longer required as we can't afford him. Its very difficult with young players' contracts as its not always easy to judge just who is going to make it and who is not. Some lads mature quickly but don't go on to the next level whilst others may develop more slowly but go further. At the end of the day its down to the management team to assess how their cash pot is going to be spent and which young players will make it.

[David]

I don't disagree with much of your post but there is another angle to this, which hasn't been raised so far. Quite apart from the footballing aspect, which is important in itself, there's also the financial aspect. Mark McGhee has a finite budget and if he gives a player like Craig Moore or Jack Leitch ie a youngish player on whom the jury is still out another contract that then reduces the cash pot to be spent on younger players coming through and it maybe that a promising young lad is told he's no longer required as we can't afford him. Its very difficult with young players' contracts as its not always easy to judge just who is going to make it and who is not. Some lads mature quickly but don't go on to the next level whilst others may develop more slowly but go further. At the end of the day its down to the management team to assess how their cash pot is going to be spent and which young players will make it.

 

Aye, but that theory would apply to anyone that we decide to offer a contract to, wouldn't it?

 

In fact, it could be argued that at least with our own young players the manager has something of an idea of how good they are, whilst bringing in someone from down south is a risk.

 

My main point here is that I don't see the point in letting Moore go if he wants to stay, only so we then have to go and find someone from outside the club to replace him as a backup striker.

 

If there's already someone coming through the ranks below Moore that is ready for the opportunity, then fair enough. But if not, then I'd rather we kept someone who we know, and who's done the business this season, albeit at a lower level.

[Joeboy]

Last season I would have taken Moore in front of Theo Robinson and although I hold his first spell at the club in very high regard, David Clarkson. With hindsight, I would have had him in front of Wes Fletcher in the pecking order too, although I did believe at the time he would be a decent signing. I think he was deserving of a chance to be backup and given how things have panned out, over the course Moore could have replicated the aforementioned trio's achievements with us this season and quite possibly bettered them.

 

However, now he has a season of playing week in, week out behind him, with a goal ratio better than one in two, he's in a better place to be backup and I see the logic in giving him a new deal as it probably represents better value than seeking a backup striker. For anyone fearing it turning into Bob McHugh, who we no doubt held on to too long, Moore has had two loan spells where he has scored regularly (7 in 12 and 14 in 26), whereas Bob McHugh didn't get sent on loan until he was 23 and we were trying to punt him.

 

Where Leitch is different from Moore I suppose is that I can see Moore coming off the bench and knicking a goal. I can see Leitch come off the bench and slot in the middle steadily, but perhaps without making a major impact. I would be sad to see Leitch go, I do like him as a player and I think there have been times he hasn't had a fair crack of the whip, but I can't see us offering a deal.

 

I think Lasley is probably the biggest obstacle in Leitch getting a new deal to be honest. With Lasley nearing 37, I doubt either will be first choice next year and I doubt we would have both kicking about as backups with the highly rated Campbell emerging.

[Shaka]

see 2 of our old players were named in SPFA Teams of the year, Jon Page at East Fife in League 2 & Nicky Devlin at Ayr in League 1. Well done for the lads rebuilding well after leaving us

[David]

Last season I would have taken Moore in front of Theo Robinson and although I hold his first spell at the club in very high regard, David Clarkson. With hindsight, I would have had him in front of Wes Fletcher in the pecking order too, although I did believe at the time he would be a decent signing. I think he was deserving of a chance to be backup and given how things have panned out, over the course Moore could have replicated the aforementioned trio's achievements with us this season and quite possibly bettered them.

 

However, now he has a season of playing week in, week out behind him, with a goal ratio better than one in two, he's in a better place to be backup and I see the logic in giving him a new deal as it probably represents better value than seeking a backup striker. For anyone fearing it turning into Bob McHugh, who we no doubt held on to too long, Moore has had two loan spells where he has scored regularly (7 in 12 and 14 in 26), whereas Bob McHugh didn't get sent on loan until he was 23 and we were trying to punt him.

 

Where Leitch is different from Moore I suppose is that I can see Moore coming off the bench and knicking a goal. I can see Leitch come off the bench and slot in the middle steadily, but perhaps without making a major impact. I would be sad to see Leitch go, I do like him as a player and I think there have been times he hasn't had a fair crack of the whip, but I can't see us offering a deal.

 

I think Lasley is probably the biggest obstacle in Leitch getting a new deal to be honest. With Lasley nearing 37, I doubt either will be first choice next year and I doubt we would have both kicking about as backups with the highly rated Campbell emerging.

 

Aye, I see us making some moves in midfield this summer.

[Mad Dog]

Robbie Muirhead has been released by Dundee Utd which is a strange one considering how highly rated he was at Killie. He was on a longterm contract too if memory serves.

[Lobey_Dosser]

Robbie Muirhead has been released by Dundee Utd which is a strange one considering how highly rated he was at Killie. He was on a longterm contract too if memory serves.

£150k transfer fee down the drain.

 

Talented boy by all accounts but there is chat that he's as big a rocket as Gavin Gunning.

[capt_oats]

We're looking at a striker - Jamille Matt.

looking to bring him in on a Bosman in the summer.

 

That was Matt scored for Plymouth again yesterday in their 2-2 draw with Cambridge.

His goal is at around 25 seconds in the video below.

 

[Gazza_MFC_97]

I think we should look at bringing in a few new signings but would like the current players in the under 20s that are good enough for the first team to get there chance next season.

[Joeboy]

I'm sure many of you will have seen yesterday that Dundee Utd are releasing all but five of their players.

 

Very much slim pickings looking at the list, but I'd possibly take Paul Dixon. Personally, I don't think I'm in a place to have a balanced opinion on Chalmers, coincidentally most of the games I have missed this season have been the ones which he has started. I have only seen him start four times, one at left mid against Dundee Utd in August. However, those who have seen him don't give him sparkling reviews and maybe I should be blessed I haven't seen much of him. If he isn't up to the task and we can get him off the wage bill, I probably would take Dixon.

 

Had you asked me a year ago I'd have taken Charlie Telfer, but his stock seems to have fallen and it doesn't look like he achieved much even on loan at Livingston.

 

On a side note, there is some chat on Pie and Bovril about us recently following Will Vaulks of Falkirk and Stuart Bannigan of Partick on twitter. While I wouldn't think there's anything majorly substantial in a twitter follow, a quick glance suggests to me that we don't follow any players who haven't played for us!

[Guest]

Very much slim pickings looking at the list, but I'd possibly take Paul Dixon. Personally, I don't think I'm in a place to have a balanced opinion on Chalmers, coincidentally most of the games I have missed this season have been the ones which he has started. I have only seen him start four times, one at left mid against Dundee Utd in August. However, those who have seen him don't give him sparkling reviews and maybe I should be blessed I haven't seen much of him. If he isn't up to the task and we can get him off the wage bill, I probably would take Dixon.

 

Dixon of about 3 year ago, aye. Was great at United, got his move, got a Scotland cap, looked entirely competent. Since he got back to United he's been absolutely howling. He's probably better than Chalmers, but that's not really a selling point, at the moment.

[Joeboy]

 

Dixon of about 3 year ago, aye. Was great at United, got his move, got a Scotland cap, looked entirely competent. Since he got back to United he's been absolutely howling. He's probably better than Chalmers, but that's not really a selling point, at the moment.

 

Yeah I thought he was a standout on his Scotland debut. His stock is obviously not very high at the moment and I do agree when I have seen him this season I haven't exactly been impressed. However, we have seen McGhee get the best out of struggling, out of form players before and I think he could possibly fit that bill.

[Raoul_Duke]

 

On a side note, there is some chat on Pie and Bovril about us recently following Will Vaulks of Falkirk and Stuart Bannigan of Partick on twitter. While I wouldn't think there's anything majorly substantial in a twitter follow, a quick glance suggests to me that we don't follow any players who haven't played for us!

 

I'm sure Vaulks signed a new deal with Falkirk which keeps him there till May 2017, not sure we would pay a fee for him? But I've been impressed with him whenever I've seen them play (albeit only when they've been on TV)

[Joeboy]

 

I'm sure Vaulks signed a new deal with Falkirk which keeps him there till May 2017, not sure we would pay a fee for him? But I've been impressed with him whenever I've seen them play (albeit only when they've been on TV)

 

You're right. His wiki said he was only signed till May 2016, hence why I thought there might be something in it. But a quick google returned an article from Falkirk's official site with the one year extension.

[gullane]

Paul Dixon, Ryan Dow and Edward Ofere are three players I think could strengthen the Motherwell squad. It's hard to judge individual players on recent performance when they have played in what has obviously been a negative environment. These three have performed well in the past - in Dow's case, was he not a promising youngster. Dixon is potentially a ready made replacement for Hammell. Ofere is a big target man in the mould of Higdon and Sutton.

[Desp]

Paul Dixon is an interesting one. I remember his Scotland debut and he looked decent at that level. It's the question of whether he's simply regressed as a footballer in the last couple of years, or is he playing at the level of his teammates around him (i.e shite).

 

I can't see Motherwell having both Hammell & Dixon in the squad though.

[capt_oats]

Given the obvious left back issue I wondered if Spark might be one we'd look at rather than Dixon seeing as he's not being offered new terms either. He was one of that group alongside Gauld, Souttar et al who were being tipped to go on to good things. At 19 you'd think it'd maybe make a bit more sense to bring someone like that in if we're retaining Hammell.

[Lobey_Dosser]

I've kept an eye on Dixon this season as I've been banging on about needing a new fullback for some time. As others have said though, his level has fallen dramatically since his Scotland cameo. Not sure what has happened there.

[Ya Bezzer!]

Paul Dixon, Ryan Dow and Edward Ofere are three players I think could strengthen the Motherwell squad. It's hard to judge individual players on recent performance when they have played in what has obviously been a negative environment. These three have performed well in the past - in Dow's case, was he not a promising youngster. Dixon is potentially a ready made replacement for Hammell. Ofere is a big target man in the mould of Higdon and Sutton.

 

I don't rate Dow. I just think he's one of these guys who is a good footballer but doesn't have a position that he actually excels in. Where do you play him? Up front? Cos he doesn't score goals.

 

Dixon will be 30 in November so he would only be a short term replacement for Hammell if that is what you are looking for.

 

Ofere was decent with Inverness but hasn't done much with Dundee Utd and he will probably be on high-ish wages. If you look at his recent record Inverness was really the only club he did well at, excluding Caley he's got 1 goal for his last three clubs. Like Dixon he's the wrong side of 30.

[capt_oats]

Did McGhee not say that Ofere was someone he'd looked at in January but personal terms ruled him out? Either way you'd think he'd be much less limited in terms of targets in the Summer window than the stop gap options in the January window. Given his record at United Ofere probably looks more like a bullet dodged now.

 

http://www.motherwelltimes.co.uk/sport/local-sport/mcghee-was-thwarted-in-michael-higdon-bid-1-4025448

[Joeboy]

Dow has been offered a deal by St. Johnstone and Tommy Wright is after a quick response from him. He's a player I've seen have decent games but a goal ratio of 1 in 10 games isn't fantastic and I don't know where I would put him.

 

I've seen elsewhere that people would sign Rankin, but definitely not for me. Competent midfielder at this level, but not really much view to the future at 32, especially when our other two central midfielders will be 34 and 37 come October. If we're going for a midfielder, I'd hope for one who brought down the average age a bit more than that.

 

Then of course we may sign Anier, if we run out of ideas for this summer's standard player returning for a second spell.

[David]

Paul Dixon is an interesting one. I remember his Scotland debut and he looked decent at that level. It's the question of whether he's simply regressed as a footballer in the last couple of years, or is he playing at the level of his teammates around him (i.e shite).

 

I can't see Motherwell having both Hammell & Dixon in the squad though.

 

How many games is Hammell going to be playing next season though? He seems to be suffering more & more with injury these days, so I could certainly see a competent replacement coming in, allowing Hammell to play now & then for the final year or so of his career.

[Big Wispy Flossy]

The 2016 version of Dixon is no better than chalmers and that says something