steelboy Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Erwin moving to Leeds was the right move for both parties at the time. It would have been good to bring him back but possibly him or Robinson didn't fancy a third spell together. From what I'm hearing the lack of Scottish players and opportunities for u20s isn't popular down through the youth set up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siebsbarmyarmy Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Got to agree with ON40Y. Personally think that is a bit of a coup for Killie and he could be a very dangerous player. Oldham fans seemed to really take to him and wanted him back. Quite disconcerting also to hear about the young Scottish players being disillusioned at our club. TBH I have heard the same. Campbell for me was excellent last year and I really want him to be given a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils40yarder Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Campbell, McLean, McMillan and Cadden have all been used to some extent so far this season, while others such as Livingstone, Turnbull and Hastie were involved at the tail end of last season...how many home-grown youngsters is Scott Leitch et al wanting in the 1st team squad at any particular time? Seems to me that those within the youth set-up that are unhappy, need to bide their time a wee bit before complaining...or they run the risk of behaving like the knicker-wetters within our support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 The thing about our U20s is that the guys we release never go on to prove us wrong. That's pretty standard for any club, of course, not just ours. And then we've seen guys like Moore, McHugh, Thomas etc. who get a shot, but never quite manage it. I can understand why some youngsters get impatient, but it's a brutal career where you are harshly judged and the vast majority are going to fail. If they can't handle that, then better they find out now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 I'd say it's down to whether we are doing all we can to develop these players from 18-21. Look how long it took Erwin to make his debut. Thomas probably hasn't applied himself properly but at the same time we were training without a qualified coach for large chunks of last season so who is supposed to be bringing him along?It's unarguable that players we sign who are utter shite get preferential treatment over our youth players. It's easy for a manager to say a youth player isn't good enough as it bears no reflection on him. Admitting your own signings aren't up to scratch makes you look bad and you end up with ridiculous situations where McGhee is deluding himself Lee Lucas is a player.We'll always have guys in the squad who aren't up to top league level. Better it's cheap youth players who might improve than expensive imports like Kennedy, Clay, Blyth, Fletcher etc. Use the youth players smartly and it frees up wages to increase the quality of the core squad. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yassin Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 I quite like Erwin as a player/Rangers WUM, and I reckon he'll do pretty well for Killie, but I'm not particularly bothered that we're missing out on him. He's potentially a marginally better option than Bowman or Fisher but not by enough to justify signing a 4th striker who's pretty similar to the ones we already have. In retrospect, Erwin to Leeds might be one of the best pieces of business we've done in years. We lost a raw player who had one decent season at this level in return for Louis Moult and a six figure profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 If Erwin has his head screwed on, he will be an excellent signing for Kilmarnock. Good luck to him. Can only assume Robinson didn't fancy working with him for a 3rd time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Or Erwin didn't fancy coming back to Fir Park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faddythedaddy Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 What's best price we finish bottom 6 this season? Somebody mentioned we are 4/6 to finish top 6, surely no?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobey_Dosser Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 What's best price we finish bottom 6 this season? Somebody mentioned we are 4/6 to finish top 6, surely no?! No sure best prices but I seen 13/8 top 6, 1/2 bottom 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 As Lobey Dosser says, if Erwin has his head screwed on, then potentially a very good signing for Killie. Whilst I would've definitely taken him back at Motherwell and it's a bit annoying he's signed for a direct peer, were we even in for him? It's also difficult to justify bringing him in whilst we still have Moult (for now), Fisher and Bowman (regardless of whether we rate them or not) No point mentioning Blythe as whilst he'll continue to steal a wage from us I'm quite confident we'll never see him in a Motherwell shirt again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al B Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 I'd say it's down to whether we are doing all we can to develop these players from 18-21. Look how long it took Erwin to make his debut. Thomas probably hasn't applied himself properly but at the same time we were training without a qualified coach for large chunks of last season so who is supposed to be bringing him along? It's unarguable that players we sign who are utter shite get preferential treatment over our youth players. It's easy for a manager to say a youth player isn't good enough as it bears no reflection on him. Admitting your own signings aren't up to scratch makes you look bad and you end up with ridiculous situations where McGhee is deluding himself Lee Lucas is a player. We'll always have guys in the squad who aren't up to top league level. Better they it's cheap youth players who might improve than expensive imports like Kennedy, Clay, Blyth, Fletcher etc. Use the youth players smartly and it frees up wages to increase the quality of the core squad. I totally agree. There's nothing wrong with "bringing someone in" if your success rate is relatively decent, but there's not a chance that we'd be any worse off if instead of Blyth/Bowman/Clay/Lucas/Fletcher/Kennedy etc, we'd just had a bit more of Campbell/MacLean/McMillan/Hastie/Gordon/Turnbull. Then you've got the likelyhood that at least one of them (probably more) would have come good and either enhanced the side hugely, or developed enough to sell on to someone. Even if the worst case scenario happened and they all turned out to not cut it, we wouldn't be any worse off on the park and we'd be a helluva lot better off financially through money saved on wages. Edit to say...before the utter pedants on here jump on it, those player lists aren't like-for-like comparisons, just young home-grown players Vs comparatively expensive signings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dossertillidie Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Or Erwin didn't fancy coming back to Fir Park. Or without blyth/bowman leaving we couldn't use the 4th space we have for Erwin and leave the chance of not getting the pacy forward we are after Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 The abuse that guys like Heneghan took last season (and this) suggests our fan base loves to talk-the-talk when it comes to youngsters, but are a bit less willing to accommodate their learning and mistakes. I know he didn't come through the ranks, but he is in the same boat as far as being inexperienced and learning his trade. I'd love to see more youngsters come through too, but the structure of our league (and game in general) doesn't reward that risk. Can you imagine the outcry if a mistake like Jules' against Ross County had cost us our league status? Again, I know he wasn't a U20 product, but that's exactly the kind of mistake youngsters make. Hopefully, we can bring on a few more, but I understand how delicate that balance is between developing players and losing games. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Or without blyth/bowman leaving we couldn't use the 4th space we have for Erwin and leave the chance of not getting the pacy forward we are after That also makes sense. Robinson obviously has a vision on how he wants to play with Moult and/or without Moult and knows who he wants to bring in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wispy Flossy Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 If Erwin has his head screwed on, he will be an excellent signing for Kilmarnock. Good luck to him. Can only assume Robinson didn't fancy working with him for a 3rd time. Apparently Robinson tried to send him back to Leeds half way through last season because he wasn't putting his all in to training (there's always been rumours around erwin that's he' likes many of a social gathering). Erwin never really reappeared in the Oldham team until Robinson got his jotters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onthefringes Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 Apparently Robinson tried to send him back to Leeds half way through last season because he wasn't putting his all in to training (there's always been rumours around erwin that's he' likes many of a social gathering). Erwin never really reappeared in the Oldham team until Robinson got his jotters. I concur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Bezzer! Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 I'd love to see more youngsters come through too, but the structure of our league (and game in general) doesn't reward that risk. Can you imagine the outcry if a mistake like Jules' against Ross County had cost us our league status? Again, I know he wasn't a U20 product, but that's exactly the kind of mistake youngsters make. Hopefully, we can bring on a few more, but I understand how delicate that balance is between developing players and losing games. The structure of the league hasn't changed much in 40 years in which time we've brought through a list of youth players as long as your arm, in fact, the major change over that time has been to go from a top league of 10 with 2 relegated to a top league of 12 with 1 relegated. It's simply a matter of priority. If we hadn't brought through guys like Ally Maxwell, Dougie Arnott, Phil O'Donnell, Chris McCart, Jim Griffin etc when the standard of the league was much higher and staying in the league was much tougher our last cup win would be on the very edge of living memory. The strategy is just all wrong when we release Dylan Mackin while paying out the second year of a contract to Jacob Blyth to be our fourth choice striker. That just doesn't make sense either in youth development or from a financial point of view. As for Zak Jules - the mistakes he made in a Motherwell shirt were purely negative. If they had been made by a youth player we might actually have got some benefit out of them in the long run. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superward Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 I get the jist but Dylan Mackin was never making it and if Blyth was fit I am pretty sure we would have moved him on. Unfair comparison in my opinion. We've no choice but to keep paying Blyth for now and you could sense how annoyed the manager is about that in the YouTube interviews. Agree on the defenders. I don't think we should ever be getting youth defenders on loan unless they are a proven quantity. Young defenders will make mistakes and I'd rather or own made them than for another team when we won't see the benefit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londonwell Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 The last time we played with predominately youth graduates in the 1st team we finished bottom of the league, and they included McFadden, Pearson and Hammel. People have short memories. The reason we have signed some of the dross we have is because the youth players aren't good enough and the manager at the time has incorrectly assumed he could find an outside player to benefit the team. What needs to improve is our recruitment at both first team and youth level. MacLean and Campbell need to be given a chance this season, otherwise I will then be on the other side of the argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 No one is saying fill the team with youth players. Just give them a chance in the first team and on an equal footing with the guys we have signed. Clay was undroppable for a long time last season. Frear was terrible in the first half on Tuesday and anonymous in more than half his appearances but it's not going to effect his role in the squad. "The reason we have signed some of the dross we have is because the youth players aren't good enough and the manager at the time has incorrectly assumed he could find an outside player to benefit the team" We would have been no worse in terms of results using Campbell and Turnbull rather than Lucas and Moore and Mackin rather than Bowman and Blyth (they would have scored more imo) but we would have saved a lot of money. What could have made McGhee think that Clay, Lucas, Bowman and Blyth would benefit the team, they were pish on paper and in the flesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 I get the jist but Dylan Mackin was never making it and if Blyth was fit I am pretty sure we would have moved him on. Unfair comparison in my opinion. We've no choice but to keep paying Blyth for now and you could sense how annoyed the manager is about that in the YouTube interviews. Spot on. Dylan Mackin scored a few goals for the Under 20s but was never a prolific scorer. he never really played for the first 11 bar a single appearance as a sub I think. If I'm wrong correct me. I assume therefore that management did not think he was good enough to promote to the first team squad. He may fit in fine at Livingston and that might be his level. Very few youngsters fail to make the grade at Fir Park and then move on to bigger and better things. I'm just using Mackin as an example to back up Superward's point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londonwell Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 No one is saying fill the team with youth players. Just give them a chance in the first team and on an equal footing with the guys we have signed. Clay was undroppable for a long time last season. Frear was terrible in the first half on Tuesday and anonymous in more than half his appearances but it's not going to effect his role in the squad. "The reason we have signed some of the dross we have is because the youth players aren't good enough and the manager at the time has incorrectly assumed he could find an outside player to benefit the team" We would have been no worse in terms of results using Campbell and Turnbull rather than Lucas and Moore and Mackin rather than Bowman and Blyth (they would have scored more imo) but we would have saved a lot of money. What could have made McGhee think that Clay, Lucas, Bowman and Blyth would benefit the team, they were pish on paper and in the flesh. Bowman has scored 4 goals tbf. Doubt either player you mentioned would have finished as well as he did at Hampden. But I do take your point. As I say, if our better youth players who have already been in and around the squad don't get a chance this season, then I'll wholeheartedly agree with you. But equally they have to show enough to warrant that chance. Maclean going by reports (I wasn't there) was anonymous against Edinburgh City. The same game you're critiquing Frear's performance on. If the youth players show enough in training etc they'll be given a chance, it should be that simple. If it's not, then we do have a problem. But I'm yet to be convinced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gee Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 It's signings like Andy Rose I don't understand. Everything about his pedigree and write up suggested he wouldn't walk straight into our first 11. We'd be no worse off giving his minutes to Turnbull or Campbell and would help develop them in the process. The most successful Motherwell squads of recent years have been set up that way. We were fortunate it was rare that guys like Carswell and Hetherington had to cover Nicky Law etc but still. It will be really disappointing if Chris Caden is the only output of a cup winning youth team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daver Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 I don't know about Turnbull but Rose is probably about six inches taller than Campbell which I think is a big selling point to Robinson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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