Historical Crowds

[Lukemfc1]

Just a general question for some of the older members of the forum.

I find the media spin on declining crowds very interesting. They seem to use this to paint a picture of overall decline in the Scottish game. Whilst clearly in the 1950/60s crowds were lightyears ahead of what they are now there are periods in the 1970/80s where other clubs including the Old Firm had far lower attendences than they do currently. I've previously seen some rough figures in a book I had years ago but I can't find any statistics online. I appreciate historical figures aren't terribly accurate with the whole jumping over the wall culture football had.

 

- Does anyone have an idea of rough home attendences for say 1950s through to the late 80s? Have we always had a 'hardcore' 4k?

- Also I would be really interested to hear any anecdotal numbers regarding away crowds. Always found it intriguing the lack of support we have at Old Firm games for example (home and away) and wondered if this has always been the case.

 

 

Cheers

[Andy_P]

A couple of brief things spring to mind. Crowds have gone up and down but there are many factors involved that can skew things.

 

For example you take the £5 entry fee for a game against Dundee Utd under John Boyle, 11,000 or something like that. Might be have been around 9000 for Dunfermline around the same time. That's going to play with your averages. Then there are things like capacities and how well the opposition are doing when they are scheduled to visit.

 

In my lifetime without checking I reckon our crowds dipped in the early-mid 1980's then grew again only to tail back off in the recent decade or so. I remember reading for example that when we played our first home game back in the top flight in 1985 there were little more than 2000 at it. At points since we've probably had those 4000 regulars you mention that helped take crowds regularly above the 5000 or 6000 mark.

 

In terms of the Old Firm games there has always been a perception that many don't go but again crowds have fluctuated. There were times in the past that we were almost an unwelcome presence in our home ground given so much of the ground was given over to the Old Firm. But again in the late 1980's a fightback began. Ground was won back where we had half of our half of the covered terracing, then the full half (if that makes sense) and eventually (barring around the No Means No times) you had potentially two and a half stands for Motherwell fans at these games.

 

As for away games. There were points in the past where it would take us three or four visits in current times to number the volume who sometimes went to Celtic Park and Ibrox. Look at some of the highlights where we beat them 1-0 with Arnott scoring, or the same man scoring twice at Ibrox in 1993'94 to get a feel for some of the crowds we used to take.

[something else]

The late 80's early 90's seen a big increase in attendances due to guys like Cooper, O'Neill, Arnott, Coyne etc

 

i remember well over ten thousand for a midweek game against Dunfermline in 1989. Also we were getting big crowds against Hearts and Aberdeen etc.

 

The Scottish cup always brought in the fans too at that time. We had massive crowds at home in the cup winning run and we always as far back as i remember going, we took big away crowds in the cup.

 

Unfortunately the recent performances in cup runs have made folk fed up with bothering it seems.

 

The mid ninety's seen us take great crowds on our travels, just go along and watch the games on youtube against the old firm to see that.

[Yoshi-1991]

I know we are beating a dead horse but money really is the issue. When I started going to the games it was 8 or 9 pound for an adult and the crowds were around 6-7 thousand every week. It's now 20 and the crowd is 4 thousand or there abouts. It's the reason my cousin and dad don't go anymore and part of the reason I have only been to 1 league game this season.

[Spiderpig]

Cost is a big factor but not the only one allowing for the increase in peoples wages over the years the percentage cost of a ticket will be higher but i would suspect not as much as you think. Motherwell have always suffered crowd wise from the large numbers of locals who choose to go and support the ugly sisters every week and over the years our core support has probably dropped by maybe 2 or 3 thousand to the level its at now.

But trying to compare crowd levels from games in the early 80's to games now is difficult, back then a live game on TV was a very rare event so if you wanted to see a match you had to actually go, now we have saturation coverage from all over the world not just for finals or Euro games but ordinary league matches,so on a cold wet night in January and the game is live on TV its an easy option to stay at home

[Desp]

Price is certainly an issue and it's a subject that's been done to death. Unfortunately, it's not reducing any time soon.

 

I started going as a kid in 1991 and I would think the home crowd has dropped slightly, but not too much. I don't have any figures to hand, just from what I've seen around about me over the years.

 

Where crowds have dropped off a cliff, and where it hits the averages, is the away attendances. Now of course, you could take that right back to the pricing issue. I remember in the 90s that Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen would all bring great crowds on a regular basis (3000-4000 on a good day). Even when you see old YouTube clips of us playing the likes of Kilmarnock, Partick, Falkirk, they'd bring 1500 or so. We probably get half of those attendances (if we're lucky) when those clubs visit.

 

Nowadays, we'll have 3 out of 19 (over 15%) of our home games against Inverness & Ross County. No disrespect to those clubs, but that'll have a big effect on the overall average too.

 

The prospect of having 8,000 or so home fans turning up every second weekend to Fir Park would be fantastic, but it's never going to happen. Simply because I don't believe they exist.

 

As well as always striving to get more through the home gate, we should be doing something to appeal to the away crowd. What is it just now, £23? In a stand which is, at best, a 20 minute walk from the nearest pub and even further from the nearest train station. It certainly wouldn't be high up on my list of away days to stick in the planner if I was an away fan.

[capt_oats]

Here's a scan from the programme from the Dundee game 17th Feb 1990 so includes fixtures for Aug-December '89.

 

You'll see much more of a variance in numbers than you do now. In terms of the league highest was 17,667 (vs Rangers) lowest was 4,463 vs Dundee while you had games against Aberdeen (6,491 & 7267) and Hearts (8,948 & 8,822). Worth noting that our attendances against both these sides last season were: 5,437 & 6,251 (Aberdeen) and 5,141 & 5,125 (Hearts). So in the case of Aberdeen it's down about 1k from the same fixtures 26 years ago, Hearts are down a fair bit more.

 

The one that stands out and I think it's been mentioned before is the Dunfermline game on Weds 8th November which reports an attendance of 9,138 which is considerably more than games against Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee United and Hibs. Also worth noting that a Tuesday night New Year game against St Mirren (02/01/1990) pulled 8,253.

 

I think Desp is completely correct in pointing out the influence that travelling supports have on the averages. You're in a position where you're asking supporters of teams like Ross County and ICT, who have a small support anyway to pay £23 entry plus travel and associated costs. Again no disrespect to those clubs, they're in the league on merit etc but if we were playing against teams in the Central belt I'd be fairly sure that our averages would increase.

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

Our crowds are down by between 500 - 1000 over the traditional numbers of the last 30 years ago.

 

There are lots of reasons and it is no one thing. Big clubs have performed poorly in recent years and bring fewer fans, prices are high and one thing I especially worry about how many juvenile fans we retain when they have to pay full prices, there's the general economic conditions and outlook and probably far, far more people work weekends than did in 1986 or 1998. Then there is the impact of television from England and abroad and the ever falling standard of our league and the lack of competition.

[steelman1991]

Here's a scan from the programme from the Dundee game 17th Feb 1990 so includes fixtures for Aug-December '89. I tried to upload the image to this post but it's telling me the file's too big so you can get it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yiq3lffhvtqdvws/Motherwell%20vs%20Dundee%20170290%20programme.jpeg?dl=0

 

You'll see much more of a variance in numbers than you do now. In terms of the league highest was 17,667 (vs Rangers) lowest was 4,463 vs Dundee while you had games against Aberdeen (6,491 & 7267) and Hearts (8,948 & 8,822). Worth noting that our attendances against both these sides last season were: 5,437 & 6,251 (Aberdeen) and 5,141 & 5,125 (Hearts). So in the case of Aberdeen it's down about 1k from the same fixtures 26 years ago, Hearts are down a fair bit more.

 

The one that stands out and I think it's been mentioned before is the Dunfermline game on Weds 8th November which reports an attendance of 9,138 which is considerably more than games against Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee United and Hibs. Also worth noting that a Tuesday night New Year game against St Mirren (02/01/1990) pulled 8,253.

 

I think Desp is completely correct in pointing out the influence that travelling supports have on the averages. You're in a position where you're asking supporters of teams like Ross County and ICT, who have a small support anyway to pay £23 entry plus travel and associated costs. Again no disrespect to those clubs, they're in the league on merit etc but if we were playing against teams in the Central belt I'd be fairly sure that our averages would increase.

 

The game against Dunfermline, was if I remember correctly a game that could have put either side at the top of the league. Not only that but the Pars brought a big support through that night. And this is the valid point that Desp referred to - the issue isn't primarily with our home support which, even in the good old days, hovered around the 4-5000 mark - but with the large travelling supports that followed most clubs (affordability, perhaps) - Killie had one of the biggest away supports outside the Old Firm in the 70's. Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen also had big away followings.

 

The whole package of a ticket, travel and oblligatory cargo/bevvy, on a regular basis, has been taken beyond the means of average 'joe punter' and is unlikley ever to return.

 

Oh and did I mention - 'live' football - it's killed football (long live Ernie Walker, Jim Farry and Rule 14). I have a nephew who happily announced to me earlier in the season, that he didn't want to go back to watch Scottish football, because English and European football was far better and he could watch from home - yet another lost to the game.

[DunnyMFC]

Doesn't help how the powers that be and the media market Scottish football.

 

A couple of the reasons I stopped going was the people I used to go with stopped going, I moved away from Motherwell and I just don't find it's worth the travelling to Fir Park with the quality and price of the match. Another issue is I am a bit fed up with modern football at the moment.

 

I wouldn't say I watched a lot of EPL matches but they bum them up despite a lot of them being dreary matches which helps attract more people to stay at home and watch the games than see a SPL match.

 

Thing is when people talk about the cost of games in the past I wonder if inflation made those matches that much cheaper.

[weeyin]

Thing is when people talk about the cost of games in the past I wonder if inflation made those matches that much cheaper.

I was thinking about that, but don't have access to the inflation data. However, anecdotally, I bought my first season ticket for the 84/85 season. I was a student, but had to buy a full price ticket as we didn't have students' concessions in those days. I was working a summer job at the M74 Services in Strathclyde Park, so spent some of my hard earned.

 

The season ticket cost me 32 quid with the early-bird discount. That ticket gave me entry to every home league game, every home cup game and every reserve game. I don't recall the exact gate price at the time, but I do remember that the season ticket saved me over 40% on league and cup games. We may have got pre-season friendlies on it too, but I may be misremembering that.

 

I'm pretty sure prices have risen faster than inflation, but even if they haven't, I got a lot more value from a season ticket in 84/85 than I get now. So that alone makes the game more expensive.

[capt_oats]

For what it's worth, here's another one from the programme vs St Johnstone game on 5th January 1991, which was (obviously) the Scottish Cup winning season.

 

Highest by that point was 2-0 win vs Celtic - 17,652

Lowest 4-1 win vs Hibs - 4,121

 

On first look though beyond the 5 figure attendances at Celtic and Rangers games and one 8k+ game vs United you're looking at crowds between 4k - 7k.

 

Aberdeen - 6,602

Dunfermline - 5,354

Dundee Utd - 8.117

Hearts - 6,780

St Johnstone - 5.069

St Mirren - 4,720

 

Interestingly there's a table there with other teams aggregates and averages too.

 

[sbcmfc]

The price of going to games does appeared to have levelled off a bit over the last Few years at £20-£23 for most grounds.

 

I felt through the 90s and early 2000s the price went up by £1 every season.

 

I do think we are missing a trick by not offering more attractive pricing to away fans. Whether that be free kids with a paying adult (to mirror the season ticket offer in the cooper) or just a more competitive price.

 

The "customers" are out there, we just need to do more to persuade them that Fir Park should be one of the away grounds they make an effort to come to.

 

A bigger away crowd will create a better atmosphere, and hopefully improve the experience for everyone.

[Brazilian]

Cost is a big factor but not the only one allowing for the increase in peoples wages over the years the percentage cost of a ticket will be higher but i would suspect not as much as you think.

 

using the Bank of Englands inflation calculator, shows attendance cost has almost doubled doubled in real terms

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/flash/default.aspx

find entrance prices and apply them over any year to year for a comparison

Cup final ticket for us in 1991 was £7

apply inflation up to 2015 should mean around £13.55 ,

SFA highly promoted 2015 as discounted family final equivalent tickets were £25

 

Does anyone have evidence of walk up gate prices over a similar term? as they are what I believe are the significant price changes that had the impact on crowd (incl visitors) ( being as season ticket deals to some families are fairly good but require a commitment)

 

second point being; horrendous fixture scheduling , meaning the attendance habit/routine was broken for majority of PATG punters

 

and in all the other factors such as football being available at saturation point in most fans households, leaves very few people willing to shell out upwards of £30 to leave the house in the event hey find themselves available when a local game is on, let alone £40+ to plan a away trip when they are a t a loose end

[weeyin]

Scheduling is the biggest issue I think. You're spot on about breaking the habit. I'm sure our household wasn't the only one where our weekend was organized around 3pm kick-offs on a Saturday afternoon. Combined with the saturation of live games (and other sport) on telly, it suddenly becomes a lot more difficult to attend Sat, Sun, Mon, Wed and Fri games at different times of day and night.

 

It's easy to have hindsight, but it was obvious when we signed away TV rights that fans were going to be screwed over for the sake of viewing audiences.

[KirkySuperSub]

The text below is a lazy "cut and paste" from a reply I gave to ONeils40yarder in the "Scotland's Game" thread on the "General Football" forum where he asked me what it would take for me to return to the football regularly, having stopped going over the last three seasons. Pretty much sums up my feelings, a number of which would appear to be very similar to those comments already posted:

 

 

The last game I attended was v Killie, 31st August 2013 where we won 2-1.

 

I honestly can't answer that question as I genuinely do not know what it would take to entice me back regularly. Whilst I am reluctant to churn out the old cliché responses such as 'overpriced', 'poor quality', 'value for money', 'poor quality of facilities' etc., it is very hard not to.

 

What I will say, when you do stop going, it is VERY easy to find numerous other means to spend your £25 / £35 a week which you would otherwise spend at the game.

 

Latterly, the football was more of a social event that I went to, mainly to catch up with my mate who lives in Stirling every other week, rather than actually going along for 'football' reasons. I can't actually put a definite answer as to what ended it either, it just kinda withered away.

 

But even at that, the withering away for me was more of all 'football' interest withering away rather than just being specifically a 'Motherwell' thing, as there was a good few years where I hardly watched ANY football, other than the odd weekend highlights when I did catch them, despite being subscribed to Sky Sports during this time. Now I think of it, it was probably down to over-exposure on reflection, just taking it for granted that some football is going to be on near enough every night, so if you miss one game, you will catch the highlights and there will always be another on in the next night or two. I did put games on from time-to-time, but they were always only on in the background, never me sitting there giving 100% focus - and this is where I'm inviting even more flak to be thrown at me - but even during this period, and still now to an extent, I hardly ever had any notion of watching the Scottish games or Scottish highlights, as they generally didn't register much interest at all, even now.

 

It pains me to say that actually, as it is a sad indication of someone who spent a good 10+ years of my formative years, going along every other week to Fir Park as well as attending more than my fair share of away fixtures as well.

 

Honestly, I would need to go back to the mid-to-late 90's to sit here and say that this was the last time where I can remember me REALLY enjoying going to the football, but that's probably more to do with being early 20's at the time and everything that that period of your life brings with it...!

 

Pretty much answers my own question I suppose as if I can't come up with answers on what it would take to entice me back, why can I expect the producers of a BBC documentary to be able to do so.

[Kmcalpin]

I suppose our crowds are returning to their levels of the late 1960s. A number of reasons for their decline as have already been mentioned - pricing for some maybe but I'm not sure how valid that is in a wider geographical context. Hearts for example can fill Tynecastle and Hibs aren't doing too badly. Neither club is known for their generosity to fans. Plenty of Scots football aficionados seem to have the financial wherewithal to travel to watch top level games in England for example. Maybe its a reflection on the economic nature of Lanarkshire as compared to say Edinburgh or Aberdeen/shire. Proximity to Parkhead and Ibrox are certainly factors as is the social history of Lanarkshire.

 

Football is becoming more global and society is changing. Back in the 1950s after the Second World War, crowds were massive with clubs like East Fife being able to bring over 2,000 fans to Fir Park for a league game. Certainly at that time there were less in the way of alternative attractions and fans expectations were considerably lower. An average Scots fan supported his/her own club and had little interest in English games. Nowadays, fans' expectations are massively higher with the English Premiership or top European football being the set standard of football. Anything less than that is viewed as being poor.

 

In short the reasons for declining crowds are wide, varied and complex.

[Desp]

Nowadays, fans' expectations are massively higher with the English Premiership or top European football being the set standard of football. Anything less than that is viewed as being poor.

 

 

That's a great point. How many times do we hear the lazy excuse of "aye, but the quality of offer is poor." Compared to what? Certainly not the Scottish football on offer over the previous 25 years that I've been going.

 

The rise and rise of the game down south, with four or five games on per weekend on the telly, has now given the 'easy out' to a number of potential Scottish football fans. Because of what they see on the TV, there's now no chance of tempting them to Fir Park for Motherwell v Kilmarnock/Ross County/Dundee because "it's no worth it" and "that's shite"

[sbcmfc]

 

That's a great point. How many times do we hear the lazy excuse of "aye, but the quality of offer is poor." Compared to what? Certainly not the Scottish football on offer over the previous 25 years that I've been going.

 

The rise and rise of the game down south, with four or five games on per weekend on the telly, has now given the 'easy out' to a number of potential Scottish football fans. Because of what they see on the TV, there's now no chance of tempting them to Fir Park for Motherwell v Kilmarnock/Ross County/Dundee because "it's no worth it" and "that's shite"

If our football was priced to reflect the difference in quality it might help?

[weeyin]

If our football was priced to reflect the difference in quality it might help?

I know what you mean, but for clubs like ours, reducing the price would cut the budget even more and likely reduce the quality again.

[Ya Bezzer!]

 

using the Bank of Englands inflation calculator, shows attendance cost has almost doubled doubled in real terms

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/flash/default.aspx

find entrance prices and apply them over any year to year for a comparison

Cup final ticket for us in 1991 was £7

apply inflation up to 2015 should mean around £13.55 ,

SFA highly promoted 2015 as discounted family final equivalent tickets were £25

 

Does anyone have evidence of walk up gate prices over a similar term? as they are what I believe are the significant price changes that had the impact on crowd (incl visitors) ( being as season ticket deals to some families are fairly good but require a commitment)

 

During the SPL period clubs did ratchet the price of attending football to way over what it had been but these days I don't think you can blame the clubs too much on pricing. The banks have more or less abandoned Scottish football and many have no overdraft facilities and have to generate their own cash flow. Clubs ran on significant overdrafts for decades (look at the fees Motherwell paid for the likes of Rob McKinnon or Tommy Coyne, unimaginable now) but that just isn't possible now in the current financial climate. You have to pay to stay alive basically.

 

The drop in quality is also something really outside our control and is directly linked to the English game. The exponential rise of wages in the English Premier and Championship is probably the greatest single blow to Scottish football in its entire history....and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.

[Optimus Prime]

 

using the Bank of Englands inflation calculator, shows attendance cost has almost doubled doubled in real terms

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/education/Pages/resources/inflationtools/calculator/flash/default.aspx

find entrance prices and apply them over any year to year for a comparison

Cup final ticket for us in 1991 was £7

apply inflation up to 2015 should mean around £13.55 ,

SFA highly promoted 2015 as discounted family final equivalent tickets were £25

 

 

Certainly a relevant factor but we need to look at a wider context. Firstly if we restrict ourselves to football have SPL/Scottish Premiership prices risen by more than comparable prices in lower leagues? How do they compare to English prices? In a still wider perspective how do these price rises relate to say the cost of public transport or the price of concert tickets or the cost of musical entertainment or of Virgin/Sky TV prices? I have no figures to back it up but anecdotal evidence suggests that the cost of hiring a bus for away games has rocketed in recent years and this is certainly a factor in diminishing away attendances.

[Ya Bezzer!]

Some interesting attendances from 1982-3.

 

For a start there was a bigger crowd at Fir Park against Rangers (19,159) than there was at Ibrox (17,000).

 

It was the same for the matches against Celtic. At Fir Park (17,022 but lost 7-0!), at Celtic Park (14,983).

 

Otherwise the attendances weren't any better and sometimes were worse than today.

 

St. Mirren (4,292)

Dundee United (4,555)

Kilmarnock (3,016)

Dundee (3,295)

Morton (3,124)

Aberdeen (4,929)

Hibernian (3,815)

 

Also worth looking at the away attendances.

 

At Pittodrie (8,000) Second top of the league and challenging for the title.

At Easter Road (4,000)

At Love Street (3,563)

At Rugby Park (3,300)

[mjw]

Some interesting attendances from 1982-3.

 

For a start there was a bigger crowd at Fir Park against Rangers (19,159) than there was at Ibrox (17,000).

 

It was the same for the matches against Celtic. At Fir Park (17,022 but lost 7-0!), at Celtic Park (14,983).

 

 

We probably told the truth about our attendances whereas those two.....

[underboyleheating]

If performances and results don't start improving soon our home support will continue to slide. There was around 3000 fans at the midweek game and I suspect that won’t alter much against Ross County. I think we need to accept that apart from the odd occasion our average number of home fans will be around 3000 (plus or minus 200). However, if we can turn it around on the park, we can hopefully increase that number to nearer 3500/3800.