Scottish Premiership Dundee V Motherwell Sat 5 Nov 15:00

[wellowell]

Super superward but I have to disagree when Beaton is concerned and lots of proof .Most Scottish refs are poor but IMO make mistakes both ways with Beaton I have never even seen a 50/50 go our way he giver me the fear of death when we get him . Some examples below

1. Invisible penalty against Aberdeen 2nd 1 in match to this day nobody knows why given even sportscene couldn't even come up with reason possibly given.

2.Disallowed Sutton goal 1st minute in league cup quarter final over ruled linesman who was in line he was 40 yards away told McCall he would apologise if wrong TV proved he was goal was onside did he apologise no he didn't as McCall mentioned it months later when he was ref in another 1 of our games.

3. Last minute penalty for Dundee last season never a penalty .

4. Non goal yesterday when 20 yards away looking straight at it never over ruled linesman this time .

So u call it paranoia I don't I expect a dodgy decision every time we get him and he normally obliges unfortunately in 45 years of watching Motherwell I have never thought this of any other referee and to me that's a terrible way to feel. We have had many a decision go against us over the years and had some in our favour as well of course but never when Beaton in charge .I know I will be shot down in flames for this but would love it if he never got a Motherwell game again which won't happen if course .Rant Over

[superward]

Super superward but I have to disagree when Beaton is concerned and lots of proof .Most Scottish refs are poor but IMO make mistakes both ways with Beaton I have never even seen a 50/50 go our way he giver me the fear of death when we get him . Some examples below

1. Invisible penalty against Aberdeen 2nd 1 in match to this day nobody knows why given even sportscene couldn't even come up with reason possibly given.

2.Disallowed Sutton goal 1st minute in league cup quarter final over ruled linesman who was in line he was 40 yards away told McCall he would apologise if wrong TV proved he was goal was onside did he apologise no he didn't as McCall mentioned it months later when he was ref in another 1 of our games.

3. Last minute penalty for Dundee last season never a penalty .

4. Non goal yesterday when 20 yards away looking straight at it never over ruled linesman this time .

So u call it paranoia I don't I expect a dodgy decision every time we get him and he normally obliges unfortunately in 45 years of watching Motherwell I have never thought this of any other referee and to me that's a terrible way to feel. We have had many a decision go against us over the years and had some in our favour as well of course but never when Beaton in charge .I know I will be shot down in flames for this but would love it if he never got a Motherwell game again which won't happen if course .Rant Over

Fair do's - I couldn't list every game yet alone every decision he has made to counter that point. But, I still don't think any ref has it specifically in for Motherwell.

[wellowell]

I understand what your saying and have no problem with that' thought process as you should never think any ref is out to get you but for me I honestly feel Beaton is and every time we get him he makes it worse. I actually was thinking of going yesterday but when I seen he was referee I decided day in pub better for my blood pressure and that to me says it all. Collum and Thompson make many bad decisions but as I said some go in your favour some don't but with Beaton none go on our favour it's a shame I feel this way but can't help it and because of that u remember every bad decision he gives .As a final word on subject I did say my feelings on him before game so at least I'm consistent on the matter .

[Ya Bezzer!]

Out of interest how did the young lads play?

 

Jack McMillan has impressed me since he came in. He'll make mistakes of course but I think he looks a promising player.

 

It was a bit unfair I felt to put the other two on at that stage in the game. Dundee were on the top of their game and throwing on two young players weakened us and put them in a difficult position. So I don't think it's really fair to judge either player on yesterday's performance but Dom Thomas was looking to get into the game, certainly didn't hide but I don't think he had one good touch in the match. Very frustrating day for him. MacLean was similar to the other matches in which I've seen him. He didn't really get involved in the play and it seemed to pass him by.

 

But the main thing was that we completely lost our team shape with those two substitutions and until it went to 2-0 we were a bit of a shambles over all. At 2-0 Dundee probably took their foot off the gas a bit and we came more into it again but I felt it was a poor choice in substitutions. Lasley was perhaps not fit and had to be replaced but I felt although Ainsworth didn't have a good game he could have stayed on.

[myteam]

were we the only game in the our league not to have a minutes silence pre-game? was surprised by the omission especially as we had our poppies on our tops & Dundee had armbands. just wondering. no comment on the game as I,m still not calmed down yet. suffice to say rubbish & very cold as well

[Fairhill]

I think most refs try to be fair, and most supporters from other teams will have somebody they don't like. If they were all full-timers that would be one thing, but they're not, so they're more likely to get it wrong more often. But some are thought enough of to be at UEFA and FIFA events.

 

The people we should hold to account are the players and the managerial staff. Even when we've done well in the league there have always been times when the team doesn't show up, or where the manager hasn't done well with selection and changing. It's been the same this season, and we're where we deserve to be. Inconsistency all over the place, especially from our senior players, when they're fit.

 

I've never really been comfortable with the manager, and I think we suffer from him wearing two hats. Scotland has other options for assistants, but we only have one manager and I feel his mind needs to be squarely on us.

 

So if we could get the players to give even 80%, and the manager to accept his responsibility to turn out a team that's committed to play 90 minutes once in a while, we'd be comfortable in the top six. When Hibs get back next season we'll be hard pressed to make any challenge for sixth. We're just not good enough. Hate to say this, but my confidence this year is down a lot.

[mjw]

When Hibs get back next season we'll be hard pressed to make any challenge for sixth.

Is it definetly next season they are coming back?

They seem to be enjoying it down there.

[Tweed]

I understand what your saying and have no problem with that' thought process as you should never think any ref is out to get you but for me I honestly feel Beaton is and every time we get him he makes it worse. I actually was thinking of going yesterday but when I seen he was referee I decided day in pub better for my blood pressure and that to me says it all. Collum and Thompson make many bad decisions but as I said some go in your favour some don't but with Beaton none go on our favour it's a shame I feel this way but can't help it and because of that u remember every bad decision he gives .As a final word on subject I did say my feelings on him before game so at least I'm consistent on the matter .

 

I thought Beaton had a decent game yesterday - the goal was entirely his assistant's fault. Even if Beaton was 99% sure it was in he can't risk overruling someone who is in ten times a better position and getting it wrong. And for all him changing the corner to the goal kick was annoying, he was right.

[Del_Superwell]

The corner to a goal kick wasnt right at all, Moult smacked the ball off the dundee player, it was a corner clear as day and one of several baffling calls Beaton had yesterday. The Sunday Mail gave Beaton a rating 3/10 for his performance which I think says it all.

[Kmcalpin]

I read that Skippy said that the ref thought it was a goal and looked to the linesman, who was better placed, but he didn't confirm it.

[wellowell]

Scott McDonald says in paper today Beaton told him at half time he thought it was in and as he was only 20 yards away looking unobstructed straight at it why not give goal. He overruled linesman in cup quarter final from 40 yards away because he thought Sutton was offside even though linesman said he wasn't and TV pictures proved he wasn't just seems very strange he only over rules his assistants to the detriment of Motherwell never the other way round. I have felt this way about Beaton for 3 years now and every game makes it grow even more as I honestly feel he has an agenda against Motherwell and never felt that about any other referee in my 45 yrs of watching Motherwell .I must admit I have been shot down constantly when I say this but how many decisions does he have to get blatantly wrong against us before somebody agrees because they are mounting and mounting .

[ropy]

The corner to a goal kick wasnt right at all, Moult smacked the ball off the dundee player, it was a corner clear as day and one of several baffling calls Beaton had yesterday. The Sunday Mail gave Beaton a rating 3/10 for his performance which I think says it all.

I felt that the defender's reaction was genuine so probably not a corner.

[wellowell]

Don't understand Tweed you say Beaton was right to overturn linesmans decision of corner as he was right to do so ,so what's the difference with goal as once again he thought it was in so why not over rule again or was it because one was in favour of Motherwell and 1 wasn't .

[Desp]

Super superward but I have to disagree when Beaton is concerned and lots of proof .Most Scottish refs are poor but IMO make mistakes both ways with Beaton I have never even seen a 50/50 go our way he giver me the fear of death when we get him . Some examples below

1. Invisible penalty against Aberdeen 2nd 1 in match to this day nobody knows why given even sportscene couldn't even come up with reason possibly given.

2.Disallowed Sutton goal 1st minute in league cup quarter final over ruled linesman who was in line he was 40 yards away told McCall he would apologise if wrong TV proved he was goal was onside did he apologise no he didn't as McCall mentioned it months later when he was ref in another 1 of our games.

3. Last minute penalty for Dundee last season never a penalty .

4. Non goal yesterday when 20 yards away looking straight at it never over ruled linesman this time .

So u call it paranoia I don't I expect a dodgy decision every time we get him and he normally obliges unfortunately in 45 years of watching Motherwell I have never thought this of any other referee and to me that's a terrible way to feel. We have had many a decision go against us over the years and had some in our favour as well of course but never when Beaton in charge .I know I will be shot down in flames for this but would love it if he never got a Motherwell game again which won't happen if course .Rant Over

 

Firstly, anyone who ends a post with the words, "Rant over", I struggle to take seriously.

 

Moving on, it is a complete and utter nonsense to suggest a particular referee is biased against Motherwell, or goes out and deliberately gives decisions against Motherwell, just because he can.

 

You may feel he is a poor referee, and you're entitled to do so, but he's not out to get us. You've picked out four examples of bad refereeing over, what, a three year period? We can feel aggrieved over each decision, and he may well have got them all wrong, but deliberately biased against us? Do me a favour.

 

You state "I know I will be shot down in flames for this" - rightly so.

[wellowell]

I am still fighting my corner in this 1 as don't care how many disagree I have given the 4 massive ones as examples and as only over about an 8 game period in which also 5 pens against us as well then to give a shocking decision every 2nd game to me is unusual but if everybody else thinks all we're just bad honest decisions so be it just a pity his bad decisions never go in our favour .

[Joeboy]

I made the trip up against my better judgement and to say we were diabolical was an understatement. We were the better team around about the phantom goal, but we never really turned that into anything substantial. The linesman definitely deserves disciplined over that, especially when he didn't give us a corner in bizarre fashion shortly after. Not buying into the paranoia it was about Motherwell, but he should definitely be held to account for his actions.

 

I've long since been a defender of Hammell on here, we're all aware of his deficiencies in terms of pace and things now but I've long since been an advocate of the fact that we are a better team with him than without him due to his ability on the ball and good touch. However, I don't know whether he was half fit on Saturday or not, but he looked dreadful and they almost seemed to target it at time. His booking was a direct result of him being off the pace and he didn't seem to have an answer for anyone running at him. For me, an ideal situation in the summer would have been to give Hammell a 1 year deal and punt Chalmers and use our budget to sign a left back who had the ability to replace Hammell. Instead we have two left backs who can't keep fit and it makes Hammell's two year deal seem even more excessive. I was impressed with McMillan when he came on and I'd say stick with him just now regardless. The only thing that annoys me about him was how often he had to turn inside on to his right foot. Tait seems to be comfortable with both feet, so it may make sense to switch them about.

 

I feel almost dirty having a pop at two club legends one after the other, but Saturday was yet another game that I felt passed Lasley by. These days he always seems to be overrunning himself and pulling himself out of position, as he doesn't have the legs to get back. It was fine last season when more often than not he was the holding player with the legs of Pearson and Cadden/Grimshaw beside him, but his days of being effective in a 4-4-2 look gone for me. When I seen the lineup initially, I was despairing of the fact we dropped Lucas until I noticed he was injured. The harsh reality of this is despite Lasley's shortcomings, we'll probably have to persevere with him, unless we give young Campbell a go. One of his competitors seems to be made of glass and the other has a freak injury.

 

I've liked Heneghan so far but their second saw him make an awful decision, followed by getting beaten far too easily. Decision making was poor all over the park, as epitomised by McDonald giving the ball away leading to chances twice (one of which they scored). Clay and Moult also both had an afternoon where every choice was the wrong one. I liked Clay a lot to begin with and although he does seem like a good grafter, I am concerned about the lack of quality he adds and I don't think he compliments Lasley well.

 

Thomas and MacLean offered nothing when they came on, MacLean didn't see much of the ball and I wouldn't blame him too much as it was a tough game to come onto. Thomas seen a little bit more of the ball and while the environment wasn't the best for him to come on and play, he didn't seem to be a creative outlet when he had the ball, didn't look capable of beating a man or playing a good pass or cross, I think his days must be numbered, seems to have gone backwards if anything.

 

The other thing that gets me is in a performance so dire, Bowman isn't thought of to be able to make a better difference than those two as well as Blyth and Kennedy not on the bench whilst picking up a first team wage. I'd like to see our squad imbalance to be addressed in January but I wonder how much scope we'll have. I hope a Pearson return in January is on the cards. At this stage, I could probably be talked into driving to India in my Vauxhall Corsa to pick him up myself...

[milo]

I made the trip up against my better judgement and to say we were diabolical was an understatement. We were the better team around about the phantom goal, but we never really turned that into anything substantial. The linesman definitely deserves disciplined over that, especially when he didn't give us a corner in bizarre fashion shortly after. Not buying into the paranoia it was about Motherwell, but he should definitely be held to account for his actions.

 

I've long since been a defender of Hammell on here, we're all aware of his deficiencies in terms of pace and things now but I've long since been an advocate of the fact that we are a better team with him than without him due to his ability on the ball and good touch. However, I don't know whether he was half fit on Saturday or not, but he looked dreadful and they almost seemed to target it at time. His booking was a direct result of him being off the pace and he didn't seem to have an answer for anyone running at him. For me, an ideal situation in the summer would have been to give Hammell a 1 year deal and punt Chalmers and use our budget to sign a left back who had the ability to replace Hammell. Instead we have two left backs who can't keep fit and it makes Hammell's two year deal seem even more excessive. I was impressed with McMillan when he came on and I'd say stick with him just now regardless. The only thing that annoys me about him was how often he had to turn inside on to his right foot. Tait seems to be comfortable with both feet, so it may make sense to switch them about.

 

I feel almost dirty having a pop at two club legends one after the other, but Saturday was yet another game that I felt passed Lasley by. These days he always seems to be overrunning himself and pulling himself out of position, as he doesn't have the legs to get back. It was fine last season when more often than not he was the holding player with the legs of Pearson and Cadden/Grimshaw beside him, but his days of being effective in a 4-4-2 look gone for me. When I seen the lineup initially, I was despairing of the fact we dropped Lucas until I noticed he was injured. The harsh reality of this is despite Lasley's shortcomings, we'll probably have to persevere with him, unless we give young Campbell a go. One of his competitors seems to be made of glass and the other has a freak injury.

 

I've liked Heneghan so far but their second saw him make an awful decision, followed by getting beaten far too easily. Decision making was poor all over the park, as epitomised by McDonald giving the ball away leading to chances twice (one of which they scored). Clay and Moult also both had an afternoon where every choice was the wrong one. I liked Clay a lot to begin with and although he does seem like a good grafter, I am concerned about the lack of quality he adds and I don't think he compliments Lasley well.

 

Thomas and MacLean offered nothing when they came on, MacLean didn't see much of the ball and I wouldn't blame him too much as it was a tough game to come onto. Thomas seen a little bit more of the ball and while the environment wasn't the best for him to come on and play, he didn't seem to be a creative outlet when he had the ball, didn't look capable of beating a man or playing a good pass or cross, I think his days must be numbered, seems to have gone backwards if anything.

 

The other thing that gets me is in a performance so dire, Bowman isn't thought of to be able to make a better difference than those two as well as Blyth and Kennedy not on the bench whilst picking up a first team wage. I'd like to see our squad imbalance to be addressed in January but I wonder how much scope we'll have. I hope a Pearson return in January is on the cards. At this stage, I could probably be talked into driving to India in my Vauxhall Corsa to pick him up myself...

That's an excellent summary, I'd agree with all of that.

 

I'm glad someone else has noticed the summer signings who aren't contributing. How much are they costing the club per month? Doubt we'll ever find out as no one seems bothered enough.

[milo]

Double post

[MelvinBragg]

I'd agree with much of what Joeboy says with the exception of the fact that Chalmers looks like a decent left back this season. If both he and Hammell were fit, I'd be starting Chalmers...

[GazzyB]

^ would agree with that, Chalmers has been excellent in the few times I've seen him.

 

Watched the highlights, we had a few great chances in the first half and really should've gone in in front, disallowed goal or not. As for goals against, awful individual errors costing us big time.

 

Also these international breaks are doing my head in.

[Kmcalpin]

I feel almost dirty having a pop at two club legends one after the other, but Saturday was yet another game that I felt passed Lasley by....... These days he always seems to be overrunning himself and pulling himself out of position, as he doesn't have the legs to get back.

I agree with most of your post Joe but although I've never been Keith Lasley's biggest fan he's always played to his limitations. He's always known that he was never a box to box player and played accordingly ie never really supported his strikers (usually to their frustration) and always been cautious positionally. But yes, he's slowing up even more now. Stevie Hammell has never been a good defender and his offensive game was always his strength. Now that his pace is also failing that part of his game is no longer masking or compensating for his weaknesses.

 

An interesting account. Thanks.

[Joeboy]

I agree with most of your post Joe but although I've never been Keith Lasley's biggest fan he's always played to his limitations. He's always known that he was never a box to box player and played accordingly ie never really supported his strikers (usually to their frustration) and always been cautious positionally. But yes, he's slowing up even more now. Stevie Hammell has never been a good defender and his offensive game was always his strength. Now that his pace is also failing that part of his game is no longer masking or compensating for his weaknesses.

 

An interesting account. Thanks.

 

I have been a Lasley fan and it's only really the past two or three seasons he's been on the decline visibly in my opinion. Although maybe not quite a box-to-box midfielder, when he was more in his prime I always felt like he played better with a defensive midfielder beside him. For example, I think he had a great season alongside Jennings in 11/12 and a great one alongside mainly Carswell in 13/14, but wasn't quite as good alongside Law in 12/13 as the midfield lacked balance. I thought in the second half of last season he had realised that he couldn't get about as much anymore and as such had reverted to being the holding player, much like Gerrard did latterly at Liverpool, but this season he seems to have abandoned that again. Whether that's more dictated with who he is playing beside I don't know.

 

As for Hammell, even in his two and a half seasons where his injuries have hampered him, we have always seemed a better team with him in it. The main reason for that for me is his touch and comfortability on the ball, which allows us to play out from the back. Any other options we have tried there have generally treated the ball like a hot tatty and after just getting rid of it, it just started the process of defending all over again. However, Saturday was perhaps a wake up call for me regarding him, it was sad to see him beaten so easily. I think the argument that we are still a better team with him in it than out it is largely based on the fact we have been inefficient in our attempts to replace him long term in recent years. It pains me to say it, as he has been a magnificent servant and is one of my all time favourite players, but calling it as I see it, that seems to be the way it is.

[CrosshillWell]

I actually think, besides the very well considered opinions on both Lasley and Hammell, that McMannus was absolutely shocking against Dundee and not for the first time this season.

 

I know I'm critical of him, but I think the same rule applies as it does to Hammell, with regard to a two year contract.

 

Ferguson, McMillan and Watt all need a chance in the first team. Chalmers has looked positive in his appearances this season, but he has offered little given he has been at the club a season and a half.

[MelvinBragg]

Ferguson, McMillan and Watt all need a chance in the first team. Chalmers has looked positive in his appearances this season, but he has offered little given he has been at the club a season and a half.

I think Chalmers has done well this season and given it's the first time he's had a run of games in one position, I reckon he deserves a chance on that basis...

[Tweed]

I think Chalmers has done well this season and given it's the first time he's had a run of games in one position, I reckon he deserves a chance on that basis.

I agree but from what I've seen McMillan is slightly ahead of him.