Scottish Premiership St Johnstone V Motherwell Sat 17 Dec 15:00

[ropy]

We lost the goal almost immediately after we changed the defensive shape, we had looked quite comfortable up til then. McDonald is still a liability with the ball at his feet. A point is welcome but I thought the way the game was going that three points were there for the taking.

[Wellarmy]

We lost the goal almost immediately after we changed the defensive shape, we had looked quite comfortable up til then. McDonald is still a liability with the ball at his feet. A point is welcome but I thought the way the game was going that three points were there for the taking.

That's what I said after the goal, why change the shape as we were comfortable up to that point. Before the game I'd have been really happy with the point but after it I'm bitterly disappointed

[capt_oats]

I checked a while back and the number of goals we had conceded within 10 mins of making a sub was quite remarkable. We don't seem to adapt well in games.

[Kmcalpin]

Not a terrible result on the face of it but could've done with Ross County not winning and Thistle getting a point at Tynecastle so we're not really any better off!

Don't forget that Accies lost last night too.

[Jacol]

We lost the goal almost immediately after we changed the defensive shape, we had looked quite comfortable up til then. McDonald is still a liability with the ball at his feet. A point is welcome but I thought the way the game was going that three points were there for the taking.

I disagree about McDonald, he is the one player we have who is always looking and making himself available for the pass. Yes at times he frustratingly loses possession but he contributes far more.

[gilmour]

I'd have took a point before KO so can't complain. Though honest to fuck our defence is piss poor.

[Welldaft Mk1]

Went up to Perth today. Glad we got a point but scratching my head how.

 

I don't like to be too critical but I thought we were very poor today. We let St Johnstone have all the time on the ball out wide, resulting in (as per usual) a barrage of crosses. If St Johnstone had a Joe Jordan we would have lost by a country mile.

 

I have seen us play ten times better in Perth and lose on a number of occasions.

 

Our central midfield is not That good at the moment. You can see Clay is a good footballer but him and Lasley and Moult for that matter misplaced so many passes today.

 

I read that Tommy Wright thinks we could have had a penalty but cannot recall the incident.

 

An away point in Perth is these days quite decent, but more performances like that will see us playing in a lower division next season.

[Kmcalpin]

A valuable point today although its questionable if we deserved it, although as Tom Wright alluded to we could easily have won a penalty in the second half. We played poorly in the first half and even worse in the second. Fortunately for all their dominance and possession, Saints were pretty toothless up front. A measure of their dominance from start to finish was the corner count 11-0. I can't recall a game for quite some time in which we were under the cosh pretty much from start to finish. Credit to Saints though - they ran, harried, chased and tackled for 90 minutes.

 

I think Mark McGhee got the line up wrong. It seemed to be a 4-5-1 with Moult on his own up front and MacDonald playing deep and out wide. At times it was more like a 4-6-0. As has happened in the past with MacDonald playing deeper he didn't link up well with Moult. Saints targeted our left flank from start to finish and in the second half slung over free cross after free cross to such an extent it became boring. Our midfield simply didn't compete and was overrun. Cadden produced a few runs which sadly were not supported by his midfield colleagues. I thought Lasley and Clay were pretty anonymous. Even from the early stages we defended far too deeply and retreated into our box and not surprisingly we lost a scrappy goal through it. Even when Lucas appeared he was pretty anonymous too but you can't expect one man to change a game like that. As others have said we didn't adapt too well to our own changes and thats when we lost the goal. Our own goal was bit odd and resulted from a goalkeeping error but credit to Tait he put in a great low cross that Davie Cooper would have been proud of. Maybe a few of our lads simply weren't fit given that they required late fitness tests?

 

The last 49 minutes were nail biting and its the kind of game we've lost before but not today.

 

It wasn't all bad though - I though our central defenders did pretty well with little or no support from those around them. They were bombarded from all angles with crosses and players running at them but they stood firm. Yes, they made the odd error but I reckon they won us a point. Great to see the likes of Ferguson and MacMillan get more game time and Davie Turnbull getting a seat on the bench. Over the weekend we made modest gains in the league after a game in which few gave us much chance.

 

Onwards and upwards.

[milo]

A valuable point today although its questionable if we deserved it, although as Tom Wright alluded to we could easily have won a penalty in the second half. We played poorly in the first half and even worse in the second. Fortunately for all their dominance and possession, Saints were pretty toothless up front. A measure of their dominance from start to finish was the corner count 11-0. I can't recall a game for quite some time in which we were under the cosh pretty much from start to finish. Credit to Saints though - they ran, harried, chased and tackled for 90 minutes.

 

I think Mark McGhee got the line up wrong. It seemed to be a 4-5-1 with Moult on his own up front and MacDonald playing deep and out wide. At times it was more like a 4-6-0. As has happened in the past with MacDonald playing deeper he didn't link up well with Moult. Saints targeted our left flank from start to finish and in the second half slung over free cross after free cross to such an extent it became boring. Our midfield simply didn't compete and was overrun. Cadden produced a few runs which sadly were not supported by his midfield colleagues. I thought Lasley and Clay were pretty anonymous. Even from the early stages we defended far too deeply and retreated into our box and not surprisingly we lost a scrappy goal through it. Even when Lucas appeared he was pretty anonymous too but you can't expect one man to change a game like that. As others have said we didn't adapt too well to our own changes and thats when we lost the goal. Our own goal was bit odd and resulted from a goalkeeping error but credit to Tait he put in a great low cross that Davie Cooper would have been proud of. Maybe a few of our lads simply weren't fit given that they required late fitness tests?

 

The last 49 minutes were nail biting and its the kind of game we've lost before but not today.

 

It wasn't all bad though - I though our central defenders did pretty well with little or no support from those around them. They were bombarded from all angles with crosses and players running at them but they stood firm. Yes, they made the odd error but I reckon they won us a point. Great to see the likes of Ferguson and MacMillan get more game time and Davie Turnbull getting a seat on the bench. Over the weekend we made modest gains in the league after a game in which few gave us much chance.

 

Onwards and upwards.

That's a scathing match report and I've no reason to doubt you.

 

You've got wonder at what point McGhee will realise, among other things, that sticking McDonald out wide doesn't work and totally nullifies his ability to best to his strengths. It is absolute insanity! McDonald isn't our best player. He should be played in his strongest position and the team built round him.

 

We're 17 games into the league season and we're still see no cohesive progress. We look no better than we did on game one.

 

Can't help but think the fact that there are 6 others teams just as bad as us is taking a lot of heat off McGhee. 4 wins in 17 is atrocious no matter what way you splice it.

[Andy_P]

I guess perhaps it just illustrates that it is always better to see things with your own eyes for a true reflection but I can't help wondering if there's a slight element of damned if you do damned if you don't at play here amongst some.

 

I was keeping up to speed via twitter yesterday and seeing the bare facts as they came through I viewed it as three positive substitutions made. A midfielder for a defender, a winger for a tiring defensive midfielder and a striker for another defender. I was perplexed then to read accounts of folk bemoaning that it was a backs-to-the-wall, hold what we have style of display when those changes seem to hint at an at least some kind of attempt to be positive and win the game.

 

I say that's fair enough, I wasn't there. But when it looks like it's only through gritted teeth that some are giving credit for taking a point at a ground we've routinely shat in the nest at for several years now because the performance wasn't perhaps the greatest, that comes across in some cases as just seeking to find fault.

 

I had a look at this stage last season and we're a point worse off than we were after 17 games but two places better off. Not a huge amount of difference at first glance but I'm reminded of McGhee's brief of the season in that we have to stay up and we have to develop our youth players. I guess positives there are that the likes of Cadden, MacLean, McMIllan, Hastie and Ferguson are now in and around the first team with the likes of Campbell and Turnbull not far behind.

[capt_oats]

I had a look at this stage last season and we're a point worse off than we were after 17 games but two places better off. Not a huge amount of difference at first glance but I'm reminded of McGhee's brief of the season in that we have to stay up and we have to develop our youth players. I guess positives there are that the likes of Cadden, MacLean, McMIllan, Hastie and Ferguson are now in and around the first team with the likes of Campbell and Turnbull not far behind.

 

I was about to have a look at that as it's something I'd been wondering about too. Cheers!

[superward]

I'd have taken a point, always hoping for 3, before we arrived. So happy enough with the fact we got one.

 

If we can not lose the majority of matches between now and year end I will probably be quite content. But I really hope we can string together a few wins with a system and team that is consistent. Hoping McHugh is the key in that puzzle on return and McLean can nail down the left midfield berth leaving McDonald and Moult to do what they do best up front and not dropping wide or deep.

[weeyin]

We were forced to be a bit makeshift thanks to injuries with, as McGhee pointed out, right sided defenders playing on the left and Skippy playing deeper left.

 

From a financial perspective it's vital we stay up this season and important we blood a few new players. I'd obviously like to see us pick up a few more points, but a point yesterday wasn't a bad result and I'm encouraged that the youngsters coming through don't look out of place.

[milo]

Don't get me wrong, I would've taken a point, by hook or by crook, beforehand and when you see the highlights I think that's a pretty strong claim for a penalty for hand ball.

 

I also thought Moult was onside for his missed chance.

 

It's also our first point against the teams in the top 5. Hopefully we can add to that on Friday....

[Kmcalpin]

I guess perhaps it just illustrates that it is always better to see things with your own eyes for a true reflection but I can't help wondering if there's a slight element of damned if you do damned if you don't at play here amongst some.

 

I was keeping up to speed via twitter yesterday and seeing the bare facts as they came through I viewed it as three positive substitutions made. A midfielder for a defender, a winger for a tiring defensive midfielder and a striker for another defender. I was perplexed then to read accounts of folk bemoaning that it was a backs-to-the-wall, hold what we have style of display when those changes seem to hint at an at least some kind of attempt to be positive and win the game.

 

I say that's fair enough, I wasn't there. But when it looks like it's only through gritted teeth that some are giving credit for taking a point at a ground we've routinely shat in the nest at for several years now because the performance wasn't perhaps the greatest, that comes across in some cases as just seeking to find fault.

 

It was a very poor performance yesterday Andy but the result was definitely acceptable against a team who are difficult to play against. The BBC stats of 11-0 corners and possession 64-36 are a reasonable reflection of the game. There were many reasons for our poor display in my view and I'll summarise them.

 

There are underlying deficiencies in our squad eg the lack of left sided midfielder following Marvin Johnson's late departure and our poor central midfield (I'll come on to McHugh later). We must have the weakest central midfield in the league. Injuries - a lengthy list including MacLean, McHugh, Kennedy, Chalmers, Hammell and Blyth. Although Saints also had a few injuries they have a slightly larger more experienced squad than us. So we did go into the game with our team selection constrained by absentees. We also had a stamina sapping trip to Aberdeen in midweek which Saints did not have. Add to that a few of our players were not fully fit. So with the exception of the underlying squad deficiences Mark McGhee's hands were tied to some extent.

 

Where I take issue with is playing players out of position or trying to fit the players into a system that doesn't suit them. MacDonald for example cannot play deep - he needs to play alongside Moult. If he cannot be play there then bench him. Out of 11 starters yesterday I reckon 8 were deep lying or defensive types, the exceptions being Moult, MacDonald and Cadden. Now that immediately limits any attacking desires we might have.

 

Substitutions? As others have said we didn't adapt well to our own changes. We were also unfortunate with the injury to MacMillan although that was late on. We were also limited for choice on the bench with the untried Turnbull and Maguire and goalie sub.

 

I think 3 of the back 4/5 places picked themselves with the exception of left back where it should have been MacMillan V Ferguson. Midfield I would have started Ainsworth or Thomas wide on the left (not my ideal choice it has to be said.) That would have given us more of an outball.

 

As to the game itself, Saints are not overly blessed with talent but they are very fit, organised, physical and competitive. So it was always going to be a struggle for us. In order for us to create we had to win the ball and thats where we just didn't compete. Central midfield is a critical area of the team and we just didn't show up there. On a few occasions Cadden manged a run but became a tad frustrated with the lack of support from behind and beside him. I think McHugh will make a difference when he returns but thats speculation on my part. We lost too many 50/50 challenges and did not work nearly hard enough to close Saints down - look at all the unhindered crosses they managed to throw into our box.

 

Anyhow it was a point gained and we did not lose ground on the pack. We have 3 more games before the break and if we can hobble to the end of the month with adequate results I'll be happy. We can then concentrate on getting players fit and perhaps bringing a couple of midfielders in.

[Wellarmy]

I guess perhaps it just illustrates that it is always better to see things with your own eyes for a true reflection but I can't help wondering if there's a slight element of damned if you do damned if you don't at play here amongst some.

 

I was keeping up to speed via twitter yesterday and seeing the bare facts as they came through I viewed it as three positive substitutions made. A midfielder for a defender, a winger for a tiring defensive midfielder and a striker for another defender. I was perplexed then to read accounts of folk bemoaning that it was a backs-to-the-wall, hold what we have style of display when those changes seem to hint at an at least some kind of attempt to be positive and win the game.

 

I say that's fair enough, I wasn't there. But when it looks like it's only through gritted teeth that some are giving credit for taking a point at a ground we've routinely shat in the nest at for several years now because the performance wasn't perhaps the greatest, that comes across in some cases as just seeking to find fault.

 

I had a look at this stage last season and we're a point worse off than we were after 17 games but two places better off. Not a huge amount of difference at first glance but I'm reminded of McGhee's brief of the season in that we have to stay up and we have to develop our youth players. I guess positives there are that the likes of Cadden, MacLean, McMIllan, Hastie and Ferguson are now in and around the first team with the likes of Campbell and Turnbull not far behind.

I fully agree mate, Ainsworth was just on yesterday and people were on him right away. He then puts two great crosses in and nobodies made an effort he still gets the shite. Wee prick behind me moaning about Samson even after he makes a good save with a couple of minutes left to save a point, cunts just want to see certain guys fail and that's a poor show in my opinion

[Tweed]

A valuable point today although its questionable if we deserved it, although as Tom Wright alluded to we could easily have won a penalty in the second half.

 

Behave yourself, that was never a penalty in a million years. The most penalty happy referee in the league didn't even flinch.

[Jacol]

Don't get me wrong, I would've taken a point, by hook or by crook, beforehand and when you see the highlights I think that's a pretty strong claim for a penalty for hand ball.

 

I also thought Moult was onside for his missed chance.

 

It's also our first point against the teams in the top 5. Hopefully we can add to that on Friday....

Moult was definitely offside, I was sitting right in line.

 

A draw was a good result regardless of the performance. St Johnstone are an experienced side they are well versed in the cynical art of niggly fouls to break up the flow of an opposition attack, which they did time and again on Saturday.

[wellowell]

Remember last year Thompson gave penalty to ICT when McManus done exact same thing ball went over his head and player headed onto back of his hand he wasn't even looking and to compound this he let then take it twice as missed 1st time. I was raging at that decision so therefore must mean I think was not a pen on Saturday but have seen them given . It was a couple of minutes bad luck as their guy clearly handled the ball into net as well not deliberate of course but if dosnt hit hand it dosnt go in it goes past him so should have it been given. Not blaming referee as both decisions could have gone either way but wound be nice for us to get 1 in our favour as I feel not getting the run of the green at the moment .

[Kmcalpin]

Remember last year Thompson gave penalty to ICT when McManus done exact same thing ball went over his head and player headed onto back of his hand he wasn't even looking and to compound this he let then take it twice as missed 1st time. I was raging at that decision so therefore must mean I think was not a pen on Saturday but have seen them given . It was a couple of minutes bad luck as their guy clearly handled the ball into net as well not deliberate of course but if dosnt hit hand it dosnt go in it goes past him so should have it been given. Not blaming referee as both decisions could have gone either way but wound be nice for us to get 1 in our favour as I feel not getting the run of the green at the moment .

Totally agree. Did Willie Collum not give a penalty against us in an Aberdeen game a couple of years ago? Someone blasted the ball against Stephen McManus's hand at point blank range - penalty awarded and McManus sent off (red card later rescinded). There was also a clearer claim on Saturday when a defender gave Moult a full blooded push in the small of his back just as he was about to connect with the ball. I can also recall a penalty given against us at McDiarmid Park due to Stephen Craigan "facing the wrong way" at a corner kick.

 

Add to that 3 good goals wrongly chalked off this season already. No conspiracy theory from me but as you say we're not getting the run of the green just now.

[daver]

It's a long way from balancing out but Hearts had a perfectly good goal against us disallowed for offside recently.

 

Have to agree, that was never a penalty on Saturday.