Tweed Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 I think we have to be careful that we don't assume every red card was for using excessive force, there are several different things a referee looks for to make it a red card which by my understanding are over the ball, two footed, excessive force, endangering an opponent. To talk about the ones in our last two home games I think Collum got 3/3 right and Dallas got 0/1. O'Halloran - not much of a debate about this one. Accidental I am sure it was but he effectively booted McHugh in the stomach with excessive force. I think the only box he didn't tick was two footed. Kiernan - I think this was a hard tackle that was one footed however I don't think it was hard enough to be classed as excessive. Did he endanger the opponent? He felt it I'm sure but I don't think there was much danger of Hammell being more injured than the bruise/dead leg he got. Tackle was also on the turf. McDonald - I think McDonald's is a clear red. He had a straight leg and he was over the ball and ergo over Miller's boot. Therefore even although I don't think there was enough to be excessive force, I think the height of the tackle and it being a straight leg there, I would expect that to be a red card. Like O'Halloran I'm sure he didn't mean it but I think he endangered the safety of an opponent. McHugh - This is the one that annoys me. It was no harder than Kiernan's and he won the ball which meant the impact on Cowie was less than Kiernan's was on Hammell because a lot of the force into the tackle went into the ball rather than the man. Had he missed the ball I would have said it deserved the same punishment as Kiernan but as it wasn't excessive force, played the ball in my mind that was not even a foul. Appreciate that may not be the popular view re McDonald and Kiernan and I am not the one member of the Willie Collum fan club but I think we need to be careful we don't start believing every straight red is for excessive force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 Fair enough assessments Tweed, but the O'Halloran, McDonald and Kiernan incidents can't be taken in isolation as they all happened in the same game and 2 of those players play for Rangers whom we know are referred by different rules. For me, the biggest issues are, would McDonald have got a straight red if O'Halloran had not one earlier? Possibly not, the ref evened it up at the first opportunity. And, bearing in mind Rangers had already been reduced to 10 men, there is absolutely no chance, regardless of how bad the tackle was, were they getting another one! Nevermind after 20 minutes AND with score still 0-0! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busta Nut Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 McDonald - I think McDonald's is a clear red. He had a straight leg and he was over the ball and ergo over Miller's boot. Therefore even although I don't think there was enough to be excessive force, I think the height of the tackle and it being a straight leg there, I would expect that to be a red card. Like O'Halloran I'm sure he didn't mean it but I think he endangered the safety of an opponent. I haven't seen it in a wee while but didn't McDonald kick the ball at Miller? How did he go over the ball? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweed Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 He did catch the ball but what I really meant was his leg was over the height of the ball and straight hence making it dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils40yarder Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 I've watched the McHugh and McDonald tackles over and over again, and can't for the life of me see a red card in either of them. I've not seen the Kiernan one played back, so won't offer up an opinion on that other than to say that at the game, at full speed, it looked like a certain red to me...would he have been red carded if O'Halloran hadn't assaulted McHugh a few minutes before? Without sounding paranoid, but would McDonald have been ordered off had O'Halloran still been on the park? I honestly doubt it...how much influence did the Rangers bench have on proceedings? The way they reacted to the McDonald tackle and Millers howls of agony (before coming back on to play a full and active part in the match) would certainly have helped the referee make his judgement call. Both our players won the ball clearly before then making impact with opposition player...and to be honest, I'm completely with the Club on this one, what were they mean to do? Allow the opposition player to collect the ball unhindered, or defy the laws of gravity and momentum by avoiding the collision after clearly winning the ball in both cases. For me, and I've heard this said quite a bit, football is fast becoming a non-contact sport, but as a fan is there anything better, a goal apart, than seeing two guys going into a tackle hard but fair, determined to keep possession or win possession for their team? In my opinion, the standard of refereeing in this country is shite from the top to the bottom...there is very little consistency, they are very easily influenced by external factors and they have next to no levels of accountability, all the while making a very reasonable living from the game, where even at the lowest scale (ie boys club fitba') they can be earning a couple of hundred pounds per week depending on how many matches they officiate. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goggles & Flippers Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 In a bad situation I agree that the club (Flow) has came out of this well. A realisation that throwing the toys out the pram was going to achieve nothing but add to the bar tab at Mar Hall, the club has essentially put the emphasis on the SFA to address out the anomalies in refereeing in a mature and conciliatory way. No doubt subconsciously reinforcing in any referees officiating us between now and the end of the season that we are all over this so they best get it right. Just out of interest, how many of those citing that the OF are treated differently by referees and rolling their eyes/accepting it as part and parcel of the game in Scotland, voted that Sevco and the Unwashed should not be treated any differently in the fixture list planning in the poll I started? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils40yarder Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 I never voted at all, but I believe all Clubs should be treated equally regardless of stature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superward Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 http://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/competitions/premiership/13-most-controversial-scottish-refereeing-calls-this-season-1-4363621 3 times we appear in here. I had actually forgotten all about the Dundee incident! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweed Posted February 10, 2017 Report Share Posted February 10, 2017 For me, the biggest issues are, would McDonald have got a straight red if O'Halloran had not one earlier? Possibly not, the ref evened it up at the first opportunity. And, bearing in mind Rangers had already been reduced to 10 men, there is absolutely no chance, regardless of how bad the tackle was, were they getting another one! Nevermind after 20 minutes AND with score still 0-0! I honestly don't think Willie Collum gives a shit who he upsets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn_Broomfield Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 If anyone is watching the Celtic v Inverness match, you'll be even more confused about what constitutes a red card in Scotland. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Stevie Thompson seems to think everything constitutes a red card. Shouting for Vigurs and Draper to be sent is a joke from an ex pro who wasn''t shy about throwing his weight around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burn_Broomfield Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Stevie Thompson seems to think everything constitutes a red card. Shouting for Vigurs and Draper to be sent is a joke from an ex pro who wasn''t shy about throwing his weight around. I wasn't convinced Draper deserved anything other than a booking as Brown was fly by purposely standing on his foot. Given our recent red cards, Vigurs tackle is worse, much worse than both. He makes no attempt for the ball, in from the back/side, high with a scissor motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 It wasn't violent or dangerous. Just a guy who can't tackle trying to show a bit of effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welldaft Mk1 Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 It was because he can't tackle it was both violent and dangerous. And every bit as bad as either our recent red cards. Hence the fans and more so the Managers and players frustration. I expect inconsistency from referees, but the one thing they have been consistent about - is red carding our players recently for similar challenges that have only seen yellow or eve nothing ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Sinclair was fine so what was violent and dangerous about it? He'll have been tackled like that hundreds of times. The SFA have altered the interpretation so effectively the referee is always right (even a wee prick like Dallas). The end result will be more games spoiled by needless red cards and utter tedium as people argue about every robust challenge. If they were changing the rules for player safety there would be no argument but who has been injured by hefty tackles this season? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamH Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 I don't think a player has to get injured for a tackle to be violent or dangerous. It's about what could potentially happen. The way Vigurs went in could have potentially done Sinclair's knee or ankle. There was also a tackle in the second half where the guy went through the ball and the player in midfield - is that not now classed as excessive force as the fact he went through the ball first doesn't matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 All this comparison of individual tackles is begining to degenerate into classic old firm whataboutery, we know scottish refereeing standards are shite, we know complaning to the SFA or adopting the Celtic stategy of "seeking clarification" is a waste of time but we done it any way, so lets move on and start worrying about the footie again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamH Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Unfortunately the decisions made by the referee have had a bearing on the outcome of the footie recently so it's not easy to "worry" about one and not the other. No need to get involved if you don't want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweed Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Vigurs tackle was very poor. He was off his feet and lunged in with a scissors motion - one you would expect a referee to brandish a red for. I think the second bit of inconsistency in this game was Kevin Clancy booked Lustig for a drag back and a minute later the already booked Vigurs did exactly the same but at 4-0 Clancy clearly felt sorry for them and didn't bother with the yellow card. But if you can't get consistency with the same referee over 2 minutes, what chance do you have with different referees over a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweed Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 If you thought Vigurs tackle was poor, you should see the one Joe Lewis got away with a yellow for in the Ross County v Aberdeen game. Dearie me. And that one actually has a direct impact on us as he should be suspended for Wednesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ropy Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 He didn't get a yellow, play on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted February 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 If you thought Vigurs tackle was poor, you should see the one Joe Lewis got away with a yellow for in the Ross County v Aberdeen game. Hopefully someone from the club reads this and adds it to the list of evidence for presentation to the SFA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siebsbarmyarmy Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 The one that springs to mind for me was the Harry Forrester tackles for Rangers against Dundee this year. Three in the one game and he only got one yellow when it could have been 3 yellows or 2 straight reds. He then went on to score in his next game, against us. Again it's all what ifs and buts but just another example of the inconsistency of our fud of refs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tweed Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 Hopefully someone from the club reads this and adds it to the list of evidence for presentation to the SFA. Scott McDonald was on Sportscene so safe to say they know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wellowell Posted February 12, 2017 Report Share Posted February 12, 2017 A lot of heavy tackles going unpunished in Edinburgh Derby as they say theirs only 2 Willie Collums no idea how a ref can decide to book everybody 1 day then on another let everything go. I thought u had to abide by the rules in every game but obviously he just decides what mood he's in if going by the rule book or not . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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