Gadgey Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 A cracking debate. I cant help but sympathise with Ya Bezzers frustrations but I cant help but think that those frustrations are caused by external forces that clubs like Motherwell and countless others like them cannot change. The football industry (for want of a better dehumanising word) has changed. The Bosman ruling changed the whole landscape for clubs like us and of course we all know that that ruling was to give greater rights to the employee and not the employer. The result? Players earn proportionally more over their playing career than their predecessors and the ability of a club or manager to realise their ambitions of build a squad over several seasons has been almost entirely eradicated. The last time we did that was with wee Tommy. I remember us setting club records for the longest period without a goal, our first time to top the premier league and us getting relegated. Had it not been for external factors, the McLean era would have been set within an entirely different and less optimistic setting. Theres been a lot mentioned about different eras and its fair to say that the 90s were catastrophic for Scottish football. We saw an influx of European (often Dutch) journeymen whos wages forced managers to play them over youth on account of the inflated wages they were on. Those same inflated wages starved youth development at many key clubs. Dunfermline and Dundee were great examples of how this can go wrong. I for one feel far more comfortable with the present model as it generates income. For many years, our youth system didnt. Our current model is not dissimilar to many clubs around us or indeed to clubs ranging from the English Championship to the 5th tier of the English pyramid. Im a season ticket holder at league 1 side that is one of those fallen from the limelight. Regardless of league placement, this summer will be a great rebuild as it will be for the majority of the teams in that division. I do have faith also that our long term vision is to develop more home grown talent. As Andy P indicates, the proof will be in the pudding but Im happy that this is the vision. To prioritise playing youth in the first team now would be folly. The post admin team was mentioned. Yes, we managed to sell some players for some large sums.....but that team still got relegated!!!! Had it not been for external factors, the Buther era would have been set within an entirely different and less optimistic setting. The only other team I can recall that went all out for youth was hearts and what happened to that team? We certainly wont have the money to buy our way back like they did. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Far too much sense being spoken on here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart Verheul Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 A cracking debate. I cant help but sympathise with Ya Bezzers frustrations but I cant help but think that those frustrations are caused by external forces that clubs like Motherwell and countless others like them cannot change. The football industry (for want of a better dehumanising word) has changed. The Bosman ruling changed the whole landscape for clubs like us and of course we all know that that ruling was to give greater rights to the employee and not the employer. The result? Players earn proportionally more over their playing career than their predecessors and the ability of a club or manager to realise their ambitions of build a squad over several seasons has been almost entirely eradicated. The last time we did that was with wee Tommy. I remember us setting club records for the longest period without a goal, our first time to top the premier league and us getting relegated. Had it not been for external factors, the McLean era would have been set within an entirely different and less optimistic setting. Theres been a lot mentioned about different eras and its fair to say that the 90s were catastrophic for Scottish football. We saw an influx of European (often Dutch) journeymen whos wages forced managers to play them over youth on account of the inflated wages they were on. Those same inflated wages starved youth development at many key clubs. Dunfermline and Dundee were great examples of how this can go wrong. I for one feel far more comfortable with the present model as it generates income. For many years, our youth system didnt. Our current model is not dissimilar to many clubs around us or indeed to clubs ranging from the English Championship to the 5th tier of the English pyramid. Im a season ticket holder at league 1 side that is one of those fallen from the limelight. Regardless of league placement, this summer will be a great rebuild as it will be for the majority of the teams in that division. I do have faith also that our long term vision is to develop more home grown talent. As Andy P indicates, the proof will be in the pudding but Im happy that this is the vision. To prioritise playing youth in the first team now would be folly. The post admin team was mentioned. Yes, we managed to sell some players for some large sums.....but that team still got relegated!!!! Had it not been for external factors, the Buther era would have been set within an entirely different and less optimistic setting. The only other team I can recall that went all out for youth was hearts and what happened to that team? We certainly wont have the money to buy our way back like they did. Exactly my thoughts on it, but put far more eloquently than I could manage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvinBragg Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Those slating Curtis Main on the basis of his numbers need to remember you can twist them to suit any purpose. His time at Portsmouth, he started 12 games, scoring 6 goals. Career wise started 107 games, scored 32 goals. Not saying that he'll be great but to dismiss him simply on appearances/goals without taking into account the number/length of sub appearances is disingenuous... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kmcalpin Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 I cant help but sympathise with Ya Bezzers frustrations but I cant help but think that those frustrations are caused by external forces that clubs like Motherwell and countless others like them cannot change....The football industry (for want of a better dehumanising word) has changed. The Bosman ruling changed the whole landscape for clubs like us and of course we all know that that ruling was to give greater rights to the employee and not the employer....The result? Players earn proportionally more over their playing career than their predecessors and the ability of a club or manager to realise their ambitions of build a squad over several seasons has been almost entirely eradicated. I do have faith also that our long term vision is to develop more home grown talent. As Andy P indicates, the proof will be in the pudding but Im happy that this is the vision. To prioritise playing youth in the first team now would be folly. The post admin team was mentioned. Yes, we managed to sell some players for some large sums.....but that team still got relegated!!!! Had it not been for external factors, the Buther era would have been set within an entirely different and less optimistic setting. The only other team I can recall that went all out for youth was hearts and what happened to that team? Good post. The football world has changed and we are but a small part of that. I admire Bosman for his honesty. He always said he never intended to change the system for the good of his fellow professionals but was simply doing it for personal selflish motives and I'm comfortable with that. We're in the early days of our new business model and I feel its on the right track. As thisGraeme says I want us to move onto the next level once Les and John Boyle have been paid off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkyred Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Good post. The football world has changed and we are but a small part of that. I admire Bosman for his honesty. He always said he never intended to change the system for the good of his fellow professionals but was simply doing it for personal selflish motives and I'm comfortable with that. We're in the early days of our new business model and I feel its on the right track. As thisGraeme says I want us to move onto the next level once Les and John Boyle have been paid off. Im a very new supporter but I have to agree. To me the club has a business model that will see it far more likely to flourish in the future. Get the dept paid off and the club will be on a far more secure footing, that means tough times with very limited funds and as such tough for any manager. Supporters of clubs always seem to be delighted when they see marquee signings, even those that have a history of one administration after another, Bury would be one example of a smaller club constantly falling into that trap. Rangers a good example up here when even playing at league two level, a level they could have walked just about playing the youth team spent silly money on premiership players rather than developing young Scottish players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderpig Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Good post. The football world has changed and we are but a small part of that. I admire Bosman for his honesty. He always said he never intended to change the system for the good of his fellow professionals but was simply doing it for personal selflish motives and I'm comfortable with that. We're in the early days of our new business model and I feel its on the right track. As thisGraeme says I want us to move onto the next level once Les and John Boyle have been paid off. Good post Dave, if we are determined to make the fan ownership model work then the club needs to get itself on a stable footing, IE clearing it's debts to Les Hutchinson, John Boyle etc. This means bringing in a much cash as we can, traditional revenue streams IE advertising, TV money, merchandise etc tend to be pretty much the same each year, so we need to be creative and that means transfer cash. Only this season the club made in excess of £1.2 million with the Johnson and Heneghan deals, plus another £500k for moult, so £1.7 million, in total a few of those deals each year and we will be debt free in no time. Then the club can start to build and develop the homegrown talent, we will still need to buy players, every club has to but a few more players like Cadden, Campbell, stepping up and becoming 1st team regulars will serve us well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Only this season the club made in excess of £1.2 million with the Johnson and Heneghan deals, plus another £500k for moult, so £1.7 million, in total a few of those deals each year and we will be debt free in no time. Then the club can start to build and develop the homegrown talent, we will still need to buy players, every club has to but a few more players like Cadden, Campbell, stepping up and becoming 1st team regulars will serve us well. This is very much my feelings, yeah. At the moment, ensuring that we have debt paid and infrastructure (others may know more than me, but I'm fairly impressed with the game we're talking at least) in place, once the debt is gone, the opportunity to try and put ourselves on a more steady footing with player development over a series of years would be more feasible. Just now has felt like a transitional period for us since the announcement of the society take over. Whether you're for it or against it in general, I'm not sure what other option we had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellfan1984 Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Those slating Curtis Main on the basis of his numbers need to remember you can twist them to suit any purpose. His time at Portsmouth, he started 12 games, scoring 6 goals. Career wise started 107 games, scored 32 goals. Not saying that he'll be great but to dismiss him simply on appearances/goals without taking into account the number/length of sub appearances is disingenuous... Exactly. It's bloody daft just saying he has x amount of appearances to y goals. An appearances means the player got playing time, be it 1 second or 90 (+) minutes. It's almost as dumb as judging a manager by win percentage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONeils40yarder Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 We'd all prefer to see our own young players coming through the ranks and going on to earn us some transfer fees that way, however I find it incredibly difficult to criticise the club for their current transfer policy when you consider the success we have had from it. There are some cracking bits of debate on this thread, but the thing that keeps coming back to me is that we are at the mercy of two-men, Boyle and Hutchinson, and while both clearly have the Club at heart and don't want to cause the Club any intentional damage, we are still indebted to them and must pay them back as a matter of urgency...and the best way to do that seems to be a short-term fix, of bringing players up from down South, playing at lower levels who we feel could do well for us and then go back down South and play at a higher level, after we allow them to perform on a better publicised stage than the one that the current play on. Once we pay LH and JB back, the noose is literally taken away from around our necks and we can re-focus our policies on a more stable footing. For all that Accies have brought all of these youngsters through and they are now playing in their 1st team regularly, they havent sold anyone of note in years and years, so currently, their transfer policy is of absolute no use to Motherwell FC. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Plus, as I mentioned before, Accies have been fighting relegation battles most years and had to sell their stadium and rent out a horrible plastic pitch to survive. Not the model I'd like to see us follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haggischomper Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 Also, stating the bleeding obvious I know, but let's not forget that the Accies are also ugly and smelly 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeboy Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 I've always been sceptical of signing players in positions where they may potentially stifle players coming through. At the start of the season, you'd probably have said the three players most likely to come through were MacLean, Campbell and Livingstone, but yet our three most unnecessary summer signings in my opinion have been Petravicius, Plummer and Grimshaw. Personally, I don't think any of those signings have made any contribution thus far that couldn't have been done by our own youth products. I suppose there is the flip that once upon a time, many thought that Dom Thomas would be an ample replacement for Johnson when he left, yet the more we seen of him, the less likely that looked, making the signing of Frear in January a necessary one. I did think Grimshaw was a decent player the first time around and I would have welcomed him back for a second spell, but only had we not already signed Bigirimana, Rose and Campbell. It shows not only the bloat, but the imbalance of the side, that we are in January with no real idea who Robinson's first choice central midfielders are, but when Hartley or Cadden are missing we're not quite sure what to do. At a point in the season, I looked at our squad and thought the depth/personnel was impressive, but the more we've had to use it, the more my opinion on that has changed. Don't get me wrong, I still think man for man, we are in a far better place than last season, but when you hear that Fisher may be departing six months after he's signed, Griffiths has fallen below an emergency loan keeper in the pecking order and Plummer's sole appearance so far was as the fourth sub in extra time, I'm beginning to credit him less and less for his dealings in the transfer market. Fisher is a strange one. I've not seen anything of him in a Motherwell shirt to make me think he's the replacement for Moult, or even worth of a starting place in a tweaked system after Moult's departure, but questions have to be asked if we are indeed looking to punt a guy six months into a two year deal. Last season he looked like he struggled to make an impact with 10 mins here, 15 mins there but when he was given a run in the side towards the end of the season, he scored six goals in seven games (aye, I know four of them were against our shitey defence). Robinson must have known this, yet hasn't started him two games in a row at any point - even in the league cup games at the start of the season. Whilst talking about games and goals etc, it would be easy to judge Curtis Main on an inflated number from wikipedia which doesn't tell the full story. We all know that a striker is often the guy who is brought on with a few minutes to go to run the clock down and that counts officially towards his appearance count. Looking a bit closer, he has 32 goals in 107 starts over his career, which is just under 1 in 3. Considering that's over several clubs and some of his starts will have been in dribs and drabs, that's reasonable enough. Let's just hope if he is lucky enough to get a consistent run in the team, unlike Fisher, he is able to prove himself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew1988 Posted January 5, 2018 Report Share Posted January 5, 2018 What about Stevie Malian he moved to Barnsley in the summer played 1 game. Great in the ball, Creative and fantastic delivery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Anyone heard about any more signings and/or players leaving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mintymac Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 According to Alan Burrows tweet a few days back were not actively seeking to ship anybody out . More likely to get a few more in . That might include Hartley and the Indian u17 goalie though . Just need to wait and see . Think players had a week off and restart on Monday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 I heard they are off to Tenerife on Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milo Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Some size of a squad were going to have and carrying a lot of deadwood then, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvinBragg Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Some size of a squad were going to have and carrying a lot of deadwood then,I think 'not actively looking to ship anyone out' means we won't be paying anyone off but I suspect there are a few players that if other clubs express an interest, that interest won't be discouraged... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weeyin Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Some size of a squad were going to have and carrying a lot of deadwood then, We've already lost 2 players, so even if we brought in 3 that's not a huge net gain. Also "not actively seeking" doesn't exclude loaning out some of our players, or even selling them if other clubs make decent bids. And let's face it, even if we think there is deadwood. They are under contract deadwood that would cost as much to get rid of as keep. EDIT: I see Melvin beat me to it with similar thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fizoxy Posted January 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Our squad is relatively small, and as said above three signings will only see the squad size increase by one from a week ago. Moult and Hammell were probably relatively well paid, so their wages combined maybe lets us get in more than two players. I dont see us getting through January without a bid coming in for someone through. Were also not getting through the season without more injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dossertillidie Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 What about Stevie Malian he moved to Barnsley in the summer played 1 game. Great in the ball, Creative and fantastic delivery Headed to hibs from what Iv been told Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yassin Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Sure I read Killie somewhere as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 Rumours on Twitter that we're looking at Craig Curran from Ross Co Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steelboy Posted January 6, 2018 Report Share Posted January 6, 2018 We should put an embargo on players from the Highlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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