The Great Rebuild 2017'18

[Kmcalpin]

Much has been made of the latest signing of Plummer ahead of developing a youth - I get that for some positions but from what I've read in reports and on here, it doesn't sound as though we have any stand - out defenders ready to step up.

 

I don't watch the under -20s so am happy to be corrected on this but it does look as though our fringe talent are almost all midfielders.

Yes, Dave I've made the same point. We have, I believe several promising young defenders, but none currently ready for the step up. No young home grown strikers ready either. So, thats 2 critical areas of the team for which we've had to bring in players. Midfield is a bit different.

[superward]

I don't know Andy. Folk were less than happy with Jim Gannon for hanging a youngster out to dry. It was embarrassing. As for David Ferguson last season that was also very embarrassing and I really felt for him. Robbo did the right thing by taking him off post haste. Some youngsters would just shrug it off but others would really let it get to them and it could damage their careers.

Spot on. It all depends on the individual. Not an easy decision to make

[capt_oats]

Presented without comment on the quality of players we've signed but as far as I can see including contracted players who have moved on plus u20s whose deals weren't renewed 17 players who were part of both first team and u20s squads have left the club (as players);

 

Clay, Thomas, Lasley (retired), Jules, Pain, Ainsworth, Moore, Samson, Chalmers, McFadden, Lucas, Ferguson, Pearson, McDonald, Mackin, Fry, Pettigrew = (17)

 

Thus far we've announced that we've recruited and promoted as follows;

Carson, Plummer, Dunne, Kipré, King, Bigirimana, Rose, Brown, McDonald, Fisher, Tanner, Newell, Semple = (13)

 

If it's the case that Shaun Bowers has arrived after his release from Celtic then that's another. So 17 out and (potentially) 14 in across both squads.

 

Based on what's been announced so far this is roughly where we seem to be, if Bowers has indeed signed then add him to the defenders list:

 

Goalkeepers
1 - Trevor Carson (29) - summer 2020 (signed from Hartlepool United - undisclosed fee)
13 - Russell Griffiths (21) - summer 2018 (signed from Everton)
39 - Peter Morrison (19) - summer 2018

Defenders
2 - Richard Tait (27) - summer 2019
3 - Steven Hammell (35) - summer 2018 (Vice-captain) - injured
4 - Ben Heneghan (23) - summer 2018
6 - Stephen McManus (34) - summer 2018
14 - Ellis Plummer (22) - summer 2018 (signed from Manchester City - free)
18 - Charles Dunne (24) - summer 2018 (+ 1 year option) (signed from Oldham Athletic - free)
21 - Cédric Kipré (20) - summer 2018 (signed from Leicester - free)
25 - Jack McMillan (19) - summer 2019
30 - Luke Watt (19) - summer 2018
29 - Adam Livingstone (19) - summer 2018
32 - Dylan King (18) - length of contract unknown (signed from Oldham Athletic - free)
34 - Barry Maguire (19) - summer 2018
37 - Jordan Armstrong (18) - length of contract unknown

Midfielders
5 - Gael Bigirimana (23) - summer 2019 (signed from Coventry City - free)
8 - Carl McHugh (24) - summer 2019
7 - Chris Cadden (20) - summer 2019
11 - Elliot Frear (26) - summer 2019
15 - Andy Rose (27) - summer 2018 (signed from Coventry City - free)
22 - Allan Campbell (18) - summer 2019
26 - Ross Maclean (20) - summer 2019
28 - Shea Gordon (19) - summer 2018
31 - David Turnbull (17) - summer 2019
33 - Liam Brown (18) - length of contract unknown (signed from Queens Park - free)
41 - Kyle McDonald (17) - length of contract unknown (promoted from Academy)

Forwards
9 - Louis Moult (25) - summer 2018
12 - Ryan Bowman (25) - summer 2018
17 - Alex Fisher (27) - summer 2019 (signed from ICT - free)
19 - Jacob Blyth (24) - summer 2018 - injured
27 - Craig Tanner (22) - summer 2019 (signed from Reading - free)
24 - George Newell (20) - summer 2018 (signed from Bolton Wanderers - free)
35 - Jake Hastie (18) - summer 2019
36 - Dylan Falconer (18) - summer 2018
38 - James Scott (16) - length of contract unknown
40 - Alfredo Agyeman (16) - length of contract unknown
42 - Jamie Semple (16) - length of contract unknown (promoted from Academy)

[Goggles & Flippers]

Looks like a hell of a lot of business to be done again after we win the Scottish Cup next year ..........

[Well-Made]

Not sure about that. Over the years, many young Motherwell players in the very early stages of their career have had excellent games against good Rangers and Celtic teams. Most recently, Ross MacLean last December.

You could also add Shaun Fagan to that list and he even managed to get on the score sheet. That like Fitzy's goal against Hearts in the Cup probably the biggest highlight of their careers and ones that probably ended any real future they had at Fir Park.

[Well Up For It!]

Likewise, a absolutely steller debut can create a false sense of illusion with both the player and the fans, and that can lead to them failing to cut it week in week out.

 

While not a youngster, while never forget certain David Ferrere's debut with a 2nd half hat trick from midfield. Remember leaving the ground that night thinking we had unearthed an absolutely gem of a player, yet was completely ineffective in the other dozen of so games he played.

[Al B]

When people get annoyed that we haven't signed enough players, and that we've signed too many players, it's so hard to figure out what I'm supposed to think.

[ohwulliewullie]

Presented without comment on the quality of players we've signed but as far as I can see including contracted players who have moved on plus u20s whose deals weren't renewed 17 players who were part of both first team and u20s squads have left the club (as players);

 

Clay, Thomas, Lasley (retired), Jules, Pain, Ainsworth, Moore, Samson, Chalmers, McFadden, Lucas, Ferguson, Pearson, McDonald, Mackin, Fry, Pettigrew = (17)

 

Thus far we've announced that we've recruited and promoted as follows;

Carson, Plummer, Dunne, Kipré, King, Bigirimana, Rose, Brown, McDonald, Fisher, Tanner, Newell, Semple = (13)

 

If it's the case that Shaun Bowers has arrived after his release from Celtic then that's another. So 17 out and (potentially) 14 in across both squads.

 

Based on what's been announced so far this is roughly where we seem to be, if Bowers has indeed signed then add him to the defenders list:

 

Goalkeepers

1 - Trevor Carson (29) - summer 2020 (signed from Hartlepool United - undisclosed fee)

13 - Russell Griffiths (21) - summer 2018 (signed from Everton)

39 - Peter Morrison (19) - summer 2018

Defenders

2 - Richard Tait (27) - summer 2019

3 - Steven Hammell (35) - summer 2018 (Vice-captain) - injured

4 - Ben Heneghan (23) - summer 2018

6 - Stephen McManus (34) - summer 2018

14 - Ellis Plummer (22) - summer 2018 (signed from Manchester City - free)

18 - Charles Dunne (24) - summer 2018 (+ 1 year option) (signed from Oldham Athletic - free)

21 - Cédric Kipré (20) - summer 2018 (signed from Leicester - free)

25 - Jack McMillan (19) - summer 2019

30 - Luke Watt (19) - summer 2018

29 - Adam Livingstone (19) - summer 2018

32 - Dylan King (18) - length of contract unknown (signed from Oldham Athletic - free)

34 - Barry Maguire (19) - summer 2018

37 - Jordan Armstrong (18) - length of contract unknown

Midfielders

5 - Gael Bigirimana (23) - summer 2019 (signed from Coventry City - free)

8 - Carl McHugh (24) - summer 2019

7 - Chris Cadden (20) - summer 2019

11 - Elliot Frear (26) - summer 2019

15 - Andy Rose (27) - summer 2018 (signed from Coventry City - free)

22 - Allan Campbell (18) - summer 2019

26 - Ross Maclean (20) - summer 2019

28 - Shea Gordon (19) - summer 2018

31 - David Turnbull (17) - summer 2019

33 - Liam Brown (18) - length of contract unknown (signed from Queens Park - free)

41 - Kyle McDonald (17) - length of contract unknown (promoted from Academy)

Forwards

9 - Louis Moult (25) - summer 2018

12 - Ryan Bowman (25) - summer 2018

17 - Alex Fisher (27) - summer 2019 (signed from ICT - free)

19 - Jacob Blyth (24) - summer 2018 - injured

27 - Craig Tanner (22) - summer 2019 (signed from Reading - free)

24 - George Newell (20) - summer 2018 (signed from Bolton Wanderers - free)

35 - Jake Hastie (18) - summer 2019

36 - Dylan Falconer (18) - summer 2018

38 - James Scott (16) - length of contract unknown

40 - Alfredo Agyeman (16) - length of contract unknown

42 - Jamie Semple (16) - length of contract unknown (promoted from Academy)

 

Thanks for that, interesting. Looking only at last year's players that have left made a significant number of appearances, and based on what I've seen from the new players in the League Cup games so far I'd say...

 

Carson > Samson

Dunne > Jules

Bigirimana > Pearson

Kipre > Chalmers?!

Rose = Clay

Tanner

Fisher or Newell ? Ainsworth

 

Overall I'd say that it looks like we've got a decent upgrade overall.

[Kmcalpin]

When people get annoyed that we haven't signed enough players, and that we've signed too many players, it's so hard to figure out what I'm supposed to think.

Avoid information overload Al, give limited weight to other people's views and come your own conclusions.

[Clackscat]

I don't know Andy. Folk were less than happy with Jim Gannon for hanging a youngster out to dry. It was embarrassing. As for David Ferguson last season that was also very embarrassing and I really felt for him. Robbo did the right thing by taking him off post haste. Some youngsters would just shrug it off but others would really let it get to them and it could damage their careers.

Exactly this I remember that game and if I am correct Gannon left him out there for the full game, it was torture to watch.

 

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

[steelboy]

Gannon went on the radio before that game and said he wasn't bothered about the result.

 

The man was a lunatic.

[ropy]

He couldn't juggle soot

[Goggles & Flippers]

Lots of encouraging comments about Plumber from Saints fans. Was he brought in as an understudy to vice-captain Hammell or does he get a nod before? With hindsight, shame we couldn't convince Dembele we were an option as I think he would have been the boiler plate on our defence. We have have a good mix of composure, footballing ability and strength to repel most attacks in this league and build decent forays upfield from the back.

 

Midfield is looking strong and a good mix of ball winners and box to box runners. Only issue I can see is Frear has had indifferent reports but that's 99% down to how he's been played thus far. From January he was one of our most consistent performers.

 

Up front, all hinges on Louis staying or going. I think he'll be off on deadline day or just before it was always the plan he'd be punted this window. If he's off, it will be for a decent wedge. I therefore hope and suspect we've got a few targets with pedigree ready to pounce on because this is the only area of the park I'm a little worried over and not willing accept a repeat of the "we'll have a punt and see what happens" of previous targets. Fisher hasn't seemed to click so far and I've not seen Tanner to comment. Encouraging from Bowman but test will be professional defences opposed to part time ones.

 

I suspect that Robinson will play a 5 man midfield more often than not this season, key for me is to change things regularly in this league as the opposition tend to know how to exploit your weaknesses after 10 games if you don't. McCall's biggest weakness.

 

So for a 3-5-2 I think we could be looking at:

 

-------------------- Carson -----------------------

----- Kipre ------- Dunne ------- Plummer -----

Cadden - Rose - Bigirimana - McHugh - Frear

----------- Moult ----- Fisher/Tanner ------------

 

If we do opt for a 4-4-2 (dependent on the opposition as it may warrant one player over another) I think this is amongst our strongest 11.

 

---------------- Carson ------------------

Tait ---- Kipre ---- Dunne ---- Plummer

Cadden - Bigirimana - McHugh - Frear

-------- Moult --- Fisher/Tanner --------

 

Over all I'm really encouraged, a few below par performances here and there in pre-season but 10 changes at half time tend to lead to that. 6th is a realistic and achievable target. Robinson will want to see his targets perform especially the one's he paid a fee for (Carson) along with those who command this biggest wages. You'd expect that he'll persevere with a few faces even if they're turning in 6/10 over a few he's inherited if they're producing 7's, I get that and you kinda have to expect it.

 

Without turning too Milo-esque I think Erwin and Thomas will be a success at Killie and McDonald will put us out a cup. Hopefully Ross County are relegated with Dundee Utd coming up and I wouldn't mind seeing Hamilton fall to Falkirk in the playoff. I also expect Chapman's to release a piri-piri pie and Stephen Thomson to talk pish on Sportscene.

[Al B]

May well be an unpopular opinion but im just chucking it out there...

 

As much as I love the guy, I think we as Motherwell fans think much more of Louis Moult than anyone outside the club does. I wouldn't be surprised if he's still here after the window, as I don't think any buying club will value him anywhere close to whatever we do.

 

I think his connection and rapport with the fans and the club, makes us significantly over-value him.

[gee]

I agree and add to that the form of our other strikers and the reported heavy sell on to Wrexham I wouldn't be surprised to see him stay.

[Richie]

Tend to agree re Moult, but its good we're talkung him up. Hopefully it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The media certainly seem to be parroting positive stuff about him anyway.

We've had the opposite plenty of times where we've pleaded poverty etc and ended up with paltry sums.

The club seems to be heading in the right direction in terms of 'marketing' players.

Either way we've got a good player onbour hands, so I guess its win-win with him.

 

With plummer, I remember him in that opening game of the season v St Mirren and even commented on him to my St Mirren supporting mate.

Seemed to have decent pace/touch/skill etc so hopefully he finds decent form with us.

[Kmcalpin]

Lots of encouraging comments about Plumber from Saints fans. Was he brought in as an understudy to vice-captain Hammell or does he get a nod before?

I don't think we'll see much of Hammy this season. Given his age and injury record now I suspect he'll make the odd appearance but no more. Hindsight is a great thing but he should never have been awarded a 2 year deal.

 

Like you the only area of the team I'm concerned about is our strikers. We struggled a bit last term at times to link Moult and MacDonald and the same will happen with Moult, if he stays, and Tanner. Neither Fisher nor Bowman have set the heather on fire so far this season.

[milo]

Outrageous slur by Goggles and Flippers!

 

I resemble that remark!

[Goggles & Flippers]

May well be an unpopular opinion but im just chucking it out there...

 

As much as I love the guy, I think we as Motherwell fans think much more of Louis Moult than anyone outside the club does. I wouldn't be surprised if he's still here after the window, as I don't think any buying club will value him anywhere close to whatever we do.

 

I think his connection and rapport with the fans and the club, makes us significantly over-value him.

 

Don't know about that, he has consistently performed and delivered, anyone who has scouted him knows he gives 110% and is a team player. I think the ongoing issue is we have a name that 50% of your average English football fan would probably think we are in the 2nd/3rd tier and what is getting really tiring now, English clubs thinking they can come up here and pay buttons because of their perception of the standard of our league.

 

#nolessthan7digits

[weeyin]

Moult's better than Erwin was when he sold him to Leeds, so that's a decent benchmark to work out a value.

[Well Up For It!]

Moult's better than Erwin was when he sold him to Leeds, so that's a decent benchmark to work out a value.

 

Sold? Did he not leave under freedom of contract and the money we received was compensation determined by a third party??

 

Not a great benchmark.

[weeyin]

 

Sold? Did he not leave under freedom of contract and the money we received was compensation determined by a third party??

 

Not a great benchmark.

 

The benchmark is what an English team were prepared to pay for a striker who wasn't as good as Moult. How the valuation was reached doesn't matter.

[wellfan10]

SR saying we're definitely not done transfer wise. Still looking for another defender and a pacy striker

[Well Up For It!]

 

The benchmark is what an English team were prepared to pay for a striker who wasn't as good as Moult. How the valuation was reached doesn't matter.

 

But Leeds signed him and then the compensation was worked out afterwords either by negations with both clubs or by a tribunal process such as the PFCC, who then determine the fee based on numerous factors. They essentially offered Erwin a contract with no idea of how much they would have to pay. Sure, they could try and guess at the figure, but counts for little, with the calculations made by tribunals not seeming to follow any real set of rules or guidelines.

 

If memory serves correctly, I'm sure Leeds were not too impressed with eventual fee set.

 

So don't think the fee we received for Erwin offers any real indication as to Moults value to us.

 

 

[wellfan10]

SR saying we're definitely not done transfer wise. Still looking for another defender and a pacy striker