Scottish Premiership Game 2: St Johnstone (A) Saturday 12/08/17

[ropy]

And another thing, in what way was it a free kick in the lead up to that fortuitous first goal?

[underboyleheating]

 

We are just easy to play against and easy to take points off.

We have been this way for a few years. Early days for this new group of players, however, we will need to wise up quickly or we could easily get cut adrift. Suspensions and injuries won’t help the cause either.

[milo]

And another thing, in what way was it a free kick in the lead up to that fortuitous first goal?

Totally. Incredible stuff. On what planet is that even remotely a foul!?!?

[Bart Verheul]

 

For me Robinson has everytrhing to do to justify his appointment but I'm looking squarely at players today and in the other matches I've seen this season; unlike a few around here I actually go to games and today was my 6th of the 2017/18 season so I've seen more than most. But anyway, the players have an individual responsibility when they are on the field that's beyond team selection, tactics or even performance level. They have to behave on the field as professionals and currently we just aren't doing that.

 

Lee McCulloch described St Johnstone as 'street smart' last week. They draw fouls where there is none and get away with them when there is. The problem is if St Johnstone are 'street smart' our guys are complete dopes. All those red cards, all those goals conceded today were completely avoidable. They fell hook, line and sinker for everyone of them. It's brainless football we are playing right now with brainless footballers.

 

We need to shape up and stop using excuses. If we need a good referee to win a match we'll go down on a record low points tally. Players need to start engaging their brains and start making smart decisions and not put themselves into the kind of positions they put themselves into today.

 

Today was easy for St. Johnstone to defend, easy for them to score. We are just easy to play against and easy to take points off.

 

Instead of bemoaning the referee or quoting possession stats people should be asking why a poor Rangers team last week can beat us at home or a St. Johnstone team that barely got out of second gear can put four past us with ease.

 

Now we can go on further into the season with heads in the sand or we can go on and try and address some fairly major issues that have been exposed this early into the season.

 

I know what I want Robinson to do.

Fair do's, like I said earlier I respect your opinion as your view normally coincides with my view of a game but you seem to be focusing a lot on the negatives this season, which so far in my opinion hasn't been as bad as we have previously witnessed.

 

Yes there are still the frustrating individual errors at the back, we seem toothless up front without a fully fit moult but for the first time in a while I feel we have a manager who actually has an idea of how he sees us playing as opposed to Baracloughs lets sign as many strikers as we can policy and McGhee's similarly ludicrous ploy with defensive midfielders.

 

Now whether Robinson can get us playing that way or whether he will fail to get any improvement remains to be seen but I see little tiny glimmers of hope that there is the potential to have a decent season.

[dmsd]

Are you blind ??

 

For me all 3 are clear red cards, don't understand why we are appealing any of them.

[swami]

I watched it on Alba. The first two probably were reds, the third probably wasn't, but it didn't really matter a fuck by then.

[siebsbarmyarmy]

Dunnes is never a penalty kick in a million years.

 

Carsons is potentially outside the box, however my main gripe is how can Thomson make that decision when he is easily 40yards away.

[Clackscat]

Well I was at the game and its fair to say its one of the oddest I've witnessed in almost 60 years. I'll not comment on the 3 red cards as I haven't seen them in detail. I thought mistakes were made in the team selection. We lacked pace and movement up front and perhaps, and I say perhaps, MacLean could have given us that. Predictably left wing was a problem for us. We started off well and controlled the game and swung over cross after cross into Saints' box with little effect. Plenty of possession and graft but no cutting edge. After perhaps 20 minutes of pressure we failed to register one effort on goal. Saints broke away and predictably scored 2 goals with 2 attacks. the first one relying on spades of good luck. Bowman and Fisher worked damned hard but did nothing admittedly, with poor service. Poor defending did cost us and thats what Saints are good at - making few mistakes and scoring when the chance presents itself. Over the piece we didn't play badly but lacked experience and streetwiseness. Up front is where our problems lie. Neither Fisher nor Bowman look like doing the business at this level. Hard work in life by itself counts for nothing.

 

As we lost men Saints began to dominate the game as you'd expect. They've now picked up 6 points by beating 2 teams in close fought games as they do.

 

I can't go on without referring to the referee. Red cards apart he had a poor and inconsistent game. He missed 2 blatant hand balls, at close range and a cast iron penalty in my book when Paton, I think, grabbed Moult by the throat at a corner. However you dress it up Paton did not do that by accident. I'd also like him to explain to me why he checked our players 6 times for stealing yards at throw ins and did not pull up Saints once, not once, for similar indiscretions. Failing to give the advantage when Moult was fouled was not something you expect from an experienced referee.

 

As far as Robbo is concerned he must address 2 weaknesses: occasional errors at the back and lack of bite/punch up front. The latter is now becoming a worry.

 

Overall though I'm not overly concerned. We've had 2 tough closely fought league games and sustained two losses with little or no luck. Normally after a defeat I'm hard on the team, but not today. I was one who applauded them off the field for fighting well even when down to 8 men and not giving up. A number of players, including Louis Moult, appreciated that and came over to acknowledge the applause.

 

One final thought is it normal practice for the 3 match officials to leave the pitch before most of the players? I always thought the ref was last to leave.

As ever a well thought out sensible post making good critical points but fair and reasonable.

 

Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk

[Welldaft Mk1]

I read most posts on here and they range from doom and gloom YA Bezzer and Steelboy to some overly positive posts that probably are too optimistic. Thankfully in between you read some you agree with. A good post from Kmcalpin which echoes most of my thoughts.

 

We were the better team in the 1st half based on possession and territory. Sure we did not create many clear cut chances but most of the game took place down the other end of the pitch from our fans.

 

Defensively I am starting to wonder if we are any better than last season. Should we be playing 3 at the back v teams who are arguably better than us and I include St J in that bracket for now.

 

Their 1st goal came from their 1st attempt and seemed a bit jammy. But seems to be the way with us of late. We can have 5 chances and no goals and other team just needs one. Samewith 2nd goal.

 

Still I was confident we would get back in the game 2nd half based on 1st half. Then the wheels came off aided and abetted by an utter loathesome referee. I have the conclusion Motherwell have wronged him at some point in the past. He has always (as far as I can recall) been wholly awful for us. Even taken the red cards away the decisions made again were appalling and baffling. As someone mentions a Saints player can take a throw in 10 yards up from where the ball went out - nothing. We try and take a free kick one yard from where it should be he goes into meltdown. He has become out anti referee imho. Sure there are other suspect ones but every time he takes games with us I am left screaming at him.....

 

It was a bizarre game and yes there are worries. Up front we seem weak. Moult off form and Bowman being Bowman. Works hard and holds ball up well, but looks no nearer to scoring. I think Fisher is better but again looks like he could play all day and not score.. midfield we do seem better but for me Biggy was quite poor today.

 

Carson is a HUGE improvement on Samson but red card was avoidable. Kipre and Heneghan are quite decent as us Dunne but each seem capable of Clangers.

 

Today was important as I did think it would set tone and expectation for season ahead against a team and a venue we have struggled last few years. I was positive based on last week v Rangers and midweek and whilst I accept bad luck and awful officiating played its part I am sadly not looking past another relegation battle based on today. I am hoping it was a bad day at the office but defence seems as leaky as before. Not a good recipe for a successful season.

 

Hope I am wrong

[smiddy]

just seen the heighlights on ssn and if kipre emptys it into the perth skyline ,,,, carson doesn't need to make a decision ,,,,,,, just my opionion

[Welldaft Mk1]

Dunnes is never a penalty kick in a million years.

 

Carsons is potentially outside the box, however my main gripe is how can Thomson make that decision when he is easily 40yards away.

Because he is Craig Thomson and it is a Motherwell player. No need to go into any more detail than that.

[Andy H]

These things even themselves out over a season, honest...

[Tamwell]

Last season we had a team that were poor and didn't give a fuck. This season we have a team fighting for every ball and that will do for me. It hasn't totally clicked yet, but it will.

Mistakes cost us today, but we were completely done by poor officiating, probably some of the worst decisions I've seen following Motherwell. 6 red cards in all premiership fixtures today? Fuck knows what the pre season referee meeting was all about but looks like it was full of shite.

[GazzyB]

I think I've just twigged what's going on with Ya Bezzer...

 

 

I have a dastardly theory

Think I've just clocked that myself! Hope he's not too busy in his taxi tonight...

 

 

and I didn't like his failure to acknowledge Griffiths at the substitution.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

Watched the highlights there. Never a free kick in a million years for their first, Carson's looks right on the line, Dunne's never a sending off, and McHugh's is a fuckin great tackle in my eyes but unfortunately in the modern game it's a booking and a bit of naivety from our captain shown.

 

Really hope we get a win on the board sooner rather than later. We have a good team, we seem to be making chances and getting balls in the box, but the longer we go without a win the more uncertainty will settle in...

[Kmcalpin]

Dunnes is never a penalty kick in a million years.

 

Carsons is potentially outside the box, however my main gripe is how can Thomson make that decision when he is easily 40yards away.

Good post. having watched all 3 red card incidents I'd say we were really hard done by.

 

For the first I've watched the highlights replay time and again and I'm not 100% clear as it was very very close; a matter of inches in fact. The best I can come up with is that it was on the line. Now that raises two issues. Sieb is correct in that Thomson was some distance away and did not enjoy a good angle. I don't know what the SFA regulations state but if I wasn't 100% sure I would not issue a red card. Surely his decision wasn't based on probability ie I don't know if it was legal or not but probably wasn't; a 51/49 decision? Ropy's earlier comment about corners came into my thinking also. Its common practice at corners for the taker to place the ball on the very edge of the arc and no more. Now thats deemed to be within the arc and therefore legal.

 

For the second I thought it was a fair tackle at the game and I'm still of that view. However I can see why Thomson issued a yellow card. A 60/40 decision in my view. Again Thomson probably wasn't 100% sure.

 

The third red card is laughable. Dunne in my view accidentally clips the Saints player who goes on and then stubs his boot on the grass.

 

As a layman I would not issue a card, red or yellow, unless I was pretty certain that an offence had taken place. Mistaken and unsafe decisions can cost teams games and money; players money; and deny spectators a fair contest. Just me maybe, but if I'd issued a red card to a team I'd have to be very very certain indeed to issue further red cards for fear of unfairly influencing games.

 

I think we're fully justified in appealing 2 red cards but of course we can't challenge the second, being the culmination of 2 yellow cards.

[Spiderpig]

Just watched the highlights on you tube, and all i can say is that i have never seen so many blatant fuck ups and ridiculous decisions by a referee in a single match, Thompson has taken the art of being an arsehole of a man to new levels.

 

1st goal, the free kick that led up to it was a shocking decision, no contact from the Motherwell player at all if anything it should have been a free kick for Motherwell for a handball.

 

Carson's red card - freeze the video at 4.06 in, half the ball and Carson's hands are on the line, so not outside, the linesman never saw it, Thompson had at least 2 players blocking his view, so i doubt very much that he saw it from where he was, so again a ridiculous decision.

 

No advantage for Moult, he is away and clear after beating 2 men, but that fud of a ref plays no advantage and brings the play back to award a free kick, instead of letting the play run and booking the player later if required. He has previous for that pish remember he never gave the 3rd goal in the Rangers playoff at Fir park, after Erwin was brought down and Sutton scored, he awards the pen instead of just letting the play run especially since we scored.

 

Dunne's red card, minimal contact if any and the STJ player takes at least another 2 strides then falls down, he should have been booked for diving never mind winning a pen, and as for a straight red for Dunne, a feckin disgrace.

 

Irrespective of how we played today Thompson's incompetence ruined the game, we might not have got an equaliser but at least with a full team on the park, even with 10 men as McHugh deserved to get sent off we would have had a chance.

 

The sad thing for me is that the refereeing supervisor was watching that pish performance from the ref and will do feck all about it, and Thompson will no doubt be off on a UEFA gig next week. I fully expect Carson's and Dunnes red cards to be cancelled but the damage has been done and we got nothing from the game, the sooner the SFA brings in video replays / refs or whatever they call them the better but they are a bunch of useless pricks at the best of times so i wont be holding my breath.

[brainier]

As far as Carson's red goes I think the club can clearly argue that nobody could say with certainty that the ball was not in the box. Like with corners surely the ball does not necessarily have to touch the paintwork but 'break the line' above it. Also, keepers no longer get automatic red cards for handling outside the box but only if they are preventing a clear goalscoring opportunity. This was by no means a clear opportunity.

For Dunne's red we are back to the 'accidental' argument, if he even touched him at all. Under the new interpretation of the rules this could have been dealt with by a yellow card in my opinion. I think the club would be entitled to challenge both cards.

As for McHugh, that was just foolish.

[Lobey_Dosser]

Can you elaborate on this?

 

Bigirimana blanked Griffiths on the way off the pitch. Usually you would expect a shake of the hand or the like. No major issue, just found it a bit off.

[faddythedaddy]

Think Rangers told him him not to

[milo]

Our poor decision making cost us.

 

The Carson decision was so marginal it would've been impossible to call for the ref but Kipre should've still launched it into the stand and we would've still had 11 men and nothing to talk about.

 

McHugh was already on a (needless) yellow and he should've known to keep the heid. Our captain surely has to be a bit more savvy?

[fat_tony]

I've only watched our highlights, so it's difficult to say conclusively, but it certainly looks like Carson was on the line when he picks up the ball, and Dunne barely makes any contact at all for his red card. On that evidence alone (fully aware it's not a great angle) it's really difficult to see how Thomson can be 100% certain each incident is worthy of a red card.

 

Even if Carson has handled outside the box, it should be a yellow card under the new rules.

 

McHugh's one is harder to tell. It doesn't look like a dangerous tackle from that angle. He goes in with his leg rather than studs first, so that explains it not being a straight red. However, it does look like he's caught the boy late, so I can see why he's received a second yellow for it.

 

Poor decision making from Carson, Kipre, and McHugh though. The first incident should have been cleared by either Carson or the Kipper before it became an issue, while McHugh needs to be smart about making that challenge. He's certainly following in Lasley's footsteps there though!

 

Superb from O'Halloran for the second goal, but we have three defenders following him as he cuts inside and not one gets close enough to put in a challenge. Need to be sharper.

 

Sore one, but it's hardly time for panic stations yet. We do however need to learn to be a bit more streetwise and not make it so easy for referees to make decisions like we saw yesterday.

[superward]

Partick went up there and won 3-0. But the Partick are team capable of getting 0.

 

We are easy points because we gift atrocious goals every week. 8 in three games against top level opponents. Could have been 10 if Kenny Miller hadn't missed a sitter after Dunne's 'Zak' moment and the penalty save today.

 

It's not good enough and if people accept this now we are only going one place.

 

Now add in that we've given away three penalties in three matches and 4 red cards in three matches with Moult lucky to stay on against Rangers and you have an unsustainable problem. Already we are going into a hugely important home match (lets face it we are getting nothing off Hibs at Easter Road) with completely unnecessary suspensions on top of the injuries. It's like professions suicide.

 

How can people accept this lack of professionalism?

Yawn.

[postiejim]

All this Craig Thompson stuff ,was he no the Ref when we played Sevco in the play offs ,if he was he certainly didn't show any bias in those games .

[Kmcalpin]

Also, keepers no longer get automatic red cards for handling outside the box but only if they are preventing a clear goalscoring opportunity. This was by no means a clear opportunity.

 

An aspect of the decision which hasn't been highlighted much Geoff and you're right. It was not a goalscoring opportunity. We had 2 players who could have made a block or tackle and the St Johnstone player did not have clear sight of goal. Irrespective of where the ball was, this argument should be compelling. Thomson not only made errors of sight but also of judgement.

[steelboy]

Just watched Comical Robbo's interview....

 

He must have been watching a different game.