Scottish Premiership Game 2: St Johnstone (A) Saturday 12/08/17

[capt_oats]

Not sure whether it's likely to inform our appeals any but that's the Record reporting that Thomson has been assigned a 2nd tier match this weekend. As has Beaton.

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/john-beaton-craig-thomson-dropped-10991662

[Spiderpig]

 

The only thing he needs to be convinced of is, did the goalkeeper pick the ball up outside or inside the box, with an attacker bearing down on him.

 

I've not watched the highlights other than our 3 sendings off, so can't comment on any other aspects of the match

That's true if all he was going to do was award StJ a free kick and book Carson as per the rules of the game. But for a red card he needs to be certain Carson's actions denied a clear goal scoring opportunity and from what we have seen there is no way he could be, he is a useless Fud, and the fact that him and Beaton have been dropped into the championship this week suggests others think he is as well.

[superward]

Confirmed on the SFA website that both Carson and Dunne red cards appealed against the offence of denying a goal or an obvious goal scoring opportunity.

 

Both, and Dunne's from the cup, to be reviewed on Thursday 17th August

[CoF]

Not sure whether it's likely to inform our appeals any but that's the Record reporting that Thomson has been assigned a 2nd tier match this weekend. As has Beaton.

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/john-beaton-craig-thomson-dropped-10991662

 

Doubt it. That's unlikely to be punitive and not necessarily an admission that they got anything wrong. Referees are fairly frequently taken out of the limelight for a couple of weeks while a controversy blows over. That'll be about protecting the refs as much as anything.

[Spiderpig]

 

Doubt it. That's unlikely to be punitive and not necessarily an admission that they got anything wrong. Referees are fairly frequently taken out of the limelight for a couple of weeks while a controversy blows over. That'll be about protecting the refs as much as anything.

That post just about sums up the problems re the standard of refereeing in Scotland these guys are accountable to nobody, they can feck up as much as they like as nothing will happen, just give them a lower league game for a week and hope we all forget how bad some of them are. The SFA need to sort it as every Red card they recind is tantamount to admitting the match officials got it wrong but we all know they will do nothing so fans of every team will be having this conversation every season.

[Shaka]

Rangers and Heatrts also appealed Reds. I think we will be lucky to get even Dunne's card rescinded.

 

After they scrap Ryan Jack's card, can the SFA really be seen to look so incompetent? No chance. Ryan Jack's card rescinded, Maybe Dunne too on a small chance,and the other 2? Nofuckingchance

[Richie]

Not sure why Jack would have his card rescinded. He motioned to head butt and it was clear violent conduct. Stokes should have been off too, but that's completely irrelevant in terms of the appeal.

[wellowell]

Surprised Stokes grabs Jack by throat then goes head to head with him yet nothing from compliance officer, but agree Jack,s should not be overturned as head montioned towards him but imo both should have been sent off .

[Shaka]

Not sure why Jack would have his card rescinded.

I hate being a paranoid type,but it will be rescinded quite simply because he is a Rangers player. Remember this is a team who's player actually punched a St Johnstone player in the guts on live tv and got away with it!

[Andy_P]

I don't know what costs are involved but as regards any red card we get if we believe if it's affordable, there's no penalty for the volume of appeals lodged and there's a possibility of the cards being rescinded then if they genuinely believe the referee has erred then it's worth the appeal.

 

Despite the talk from the club last year about appealing Carl McHugh's red-card being futile after McDonald's appeal being dismissed they must surely have been privately irked when they've seen some of the stuff subsequently reversed.

 

There is patently no consistency of approach by those who do these reviews so it's worth a pop.

[Del_Superwell]

The other thing that speaks volumes to me is that both Craig Thomson and John Beaton have been demoted to the championship this weekend for their performances on Saturday. I'd have thought that might look favourably on our appeals.

[daver]

I know it gets criticised but Sportscene was able to clear up a few issues that weren't clear in the highlights. I can't see how Rangers or Hearts can possibly be successful with their appeals. Similarly, I don't see us getting Carson's red rescinded.

[CoF]

That post just about sums up the problems re the standard of refereeing in Scotland these guys are accountable to nobody, they can feck up as much as they like as nothing will happen, just give them a lower league game for a week and hope we all forget how bad some of them are. The SFA need to sort it as every Red card they recind is tantamount to admitting the match officials got it wrong but we all know they will do nothing so fans of every team will be having this conversation every season.

 

Refereeing is like a performance sport - punishing them for individual mistakes would be a major step backwards and would do little to help them make these split second decisions under already considerable pressure.

 

I'm fairly certain consistent bad performances from the same referee would see them gradually moved down the pecking order however the assumption there is that there is a better referee ready to step up. I doubt that's always the case, so same old keep getting the big games.

 

I genuinely don't think any ref goes out there intending to make poor decisions but the problem is that these guys are the best we've got. This makes me think there's either a problem with the training they get or there is a problem with recruitment. I'm sure the SFA are capable of putting together a pretty robust training scheme so maybe the problem might lie in the fact that no-one wants to be a ref. Can we blame them?

[Kmcalpin]

There is patently no consistency of approach by those who do these reviews so it's worth a pop.

That doesn't surprise me Andy. From memory its comprised a former player, a lawyer and another party (I can't recall who), but the impression I have is that the personnel can vary from meeting to meeting.

 

I think also that our club seeks advice from a "refereeing consultant" before submitting an appeal.

[Shaka]

 

Refereeing is like a performance sport - punishing them for individual mistakes would be a major step backwards and would do little to help them make these split second decisions under already considerable pressure.

 

I'm fairly certain consistent bad performances from the same referee would see them gradually moved down the pecking order however the assumption there is that there is a better referee ready to step up. I doubt that's always the case, so same old keep getting the big games.

 

I genuinely don't think any ref goes out there intending to make poor decisions but the problem is that these guys are the best we've got. This makes me think there's either a problem with the training they get or there is a problem with recruitment. I'm sure the SFA are capable of putting together a pretty robust training scheme so maybe the problem might lie in the fact that no-one wants to be a ref. Can we blame them?

 

They are toiling big time in ref recruitment. I have a mate who completed the course last November, he has been dast tracked through so that he is able to run the line in Junior games and is 1 step away from Reffing Junior/Running the line at Highland League!

 

The guy is a decent ref but going from Qualifying to Officiating in the Highland League in a year or just over is mental, but they just dont have the guys and if you show a bit of hunger and quality your fast tracked asap

[superward]

I don't know what costs are involved but as regards any red card we get if we believe if it's affordable, there's no penalty for the volume of appeals lodged and there's a possibility of the cards being rescinded then if they genuinely believe the referee has erred then it's worth the appeal.

 

Despite the talk from the club last year about appealing Carl McHugh's red-card being futile after McDonald's appeal being dismissed they must surely have been privately irked when they've seen some of the stuff subsequently reversed.

 

There is patently no consistency of approach by those who do these reviews so it's worth a pop.

£500 a head per appeal. So, for me, it's worth it.

[superward]

That doesn't surprise me Andy. From memory its comprised a former player, a lawyer and another party (I can't recall who), but the impression I have is that the personnel can vary from meeting to meeting.

 

I think also that our club seeks advice from a "refereeing consultant" before submitting an appeal.

Judicial panel is a big pool of former players, managers, referees, club officials or legal experts.

 

Different members for each review is the correct a way to go for me. It should protect against any perceived bias (e.g. the same 3 people as are always on it and 'he hates me' type of chat). But it does leave the risk of different decisions from panel to panel. However, the framework to make those decisions should be there to ensure that does not happen. Unfortunately with the laws of the game leaving a lot to interpretation it's never going to be easy. But, the fact we can appeal and review decisions in the cold light of day is a good thing.

[fat_tony]

But, the fact we can appeal and review decisions in the cold light of day is a good thing.

It definitely is, but needs to be supplemented with more support for the officials on match day to allow them to review game changing decisions. It's all well and good getting a red card rescinded a few days later, but it doesn't help much if a game balanced on a knife edge is massively affected by that decision. Limited use of video was implemented well in the women's Euros I thought, so hopefully it's only a matter of time for it to be rolled out further. I understand cost is a massive issue with the adoption of video tech though.

[superward]

It definitely is, but needs to be supplemented with more support for the officials on match day to allow them to review game changing decisions. It's all well and good getting a red card rescinded a few days later, but it doesn't help much if a game balanced on a knife edge is massively affected by that decision. Limited use of video was implemented well in the women's Euros I thought, so hopefully it's only a matter of time for it to be rolled out further. I understand cost is a massive issue with the adoption of video tech though.

Yeah definitely agree

[Kmcalpin]

A lot more could be done to improve refereeing standards in Scots football. The introduction of goal line technology is one must for me. The publication of referee's reports, or at least summarised versions, for fans would also be a step forward. Most fans, me included, have never seen a referee's report. That would help to dispel myths and misunderstandings and would make officials more accountable. Football is a spectator sport after all.

 

The biggest gripe for me is inconsistency, even within the same game. Examples of this would be random and irregular treatment of foul throws; random and irregular treatment of encroachment at penalties; inconsistent definition of and punishment for dissent. I simply cannot understand why we were pulled up 6 times last Saturday for stealing yards at throw ins yet Saints did exactly the same and were not checked once. Red card appeals seem to be a complete lottery from what we have seen.

 

Now refs have a very difficult job to do and have to make split second decisions without the benefit of action replays. In the course of a game they will make mistakes, they are only human after all. But these could be minimised and more consistency achieved. It is a very difficult job and you only have to view post match pictures to see the amount of fouling that goes on during a game eg jersey pulling is very, very common.

 

Another gripe I have is timing/duration of games. It really does seem to be a complete lottery. Time wasting is rarely, if ever taken into account. It was interesting to see that on the opening day of the English lower league card on 5/6 August the number of games in which 6/7 minutes were added on. This is a rarity in Scotland.

 

Are refs biased? I'm sure most aren't but human nature being what it is it'll be very hard to be 100% objective. Refs can be unduly influenced by large crowds, big playing characters, personal dislike of certain players and so on. Its human nature. I think Liverpool University made a study of this years ago and came to this conclusion.

 

We need to encourage more to take up refereeing and give those who do more respect but the SFA needs to start the improvement process itself.

[ropy]

Also, all our players should go on a refereeing course so that they know the rules and can talk to the ref in their language. Every industry uses certifications to help improve their staff, football has coaching and refereeing, why not get a certificate. They have plenty spare time.

[ONeils40yarder]

Referees are in general, just very poor at what they do, and I mean at every level of the game. I watch a lot of youth football, and junior football, when I'm not attending a Motherwell game and at every level I've witnessed complete incompetence.

 

I realise its extremely difficult at times, and they really are on a hiding to nothing, you've just got to take a look at our own debate on the Carson red card incident to realise that it isn't easy, and it isn't always clear cut. However, some of the things that go on are completely infuriating.

 

As KMcalpine alludes to above, there is no doubt in my mind that the larger teams get the benefit, the rub of the green, much more than smaller sides, purely because of the numerical advantage they have. 2 questions I have asked Rangers and Celtic fans recently are;

 

1) would Celtic have been given a penalty in the dying moments of a match at Firhill if they were 1-0 down to Thistle, in the circumstances where we seen Thistle denied an absolute stone-waller?

2) would Rangers have conceded a penalty, in the fashion that Motherwell did when we recently met?

 

I think we all know the answer to both questions, and while I'm not saying its a conspiracy (although Bobby Madmans performance a week past Sunday is as close as I've ever been to sticking the tinfoil hat on), I'm saying they are definitely influenced by their surroundings AND the potential consequences. I wonder if Andrew Dallas can remember his windows being panned in by Celtic fans after his father gave a debatable decision against their team for example? Are they influenced by the potential hours and hours of debate on radio stations, Sportscene and a weeks worth of being public enemy number one in the tabloids? I'm almost certain that they are, and I think that is human nature unfortunately.

 

At my sons game (I help coach) on Saturday, we were 1-0 up in a pretty important match, as far as under 14s kids football goes. The opponents are pressing high up the park, chasing the game, we break their offside trap and send our striker one on one with the keeper...25yards out, and the referee blows for full-time. Now, we aren't overly concerned about missing the opportunity to score as we have won the match. That is until the referee, is pulled up by the opposition coaches for stopping the game 5mins early!! We had to retake the field and contest a bounce ball from where out striker was....this isnt a conspiracy against our wee boys club, its just absolutely shite officiating. Thankfully, we managed to get another one in the added on 5mins, more for the refs sake than ours, as there were a team worth of parents looking to have a go at him.

 

I've came across a few good referees at the lowest end of the scale, guys (and lassies) who genuinely seem to enjoy what they do, they have a good way about them, talk to the kids and coaches with a bit of respect and explain decisions and apologise for things they have got wrong, which is the way I believe it should be at that level, but for some reason I don't imagine these guys will get very far in their profession as I get the feeling that the SFA want a level of aloofness amongst their officials for whatever reason. I've also come across many an arrogant arsehole though, with the 'I'll decide' patter, which does nothing but gets peoples backs up and generally doesnt end particularly well.

 

I don't think the controversy over refereeing decisions will ever go away, as we will never be able to take the human element away from the game (and I'm not sure that I'd want to even if we could). This whole post of mine probably comes across as a mix between defending and criticising referees and thats probably exactly where I am with it, they have an incredibly difficult job at all levels, but by fuck some of the stuff they do makes it difficult to defend them.

[SJ1210]

The other thing that speaks volumes to me is that both Craig Thomson and John Beaton have been demoted to the championship this weekend for their performances on Saturday. I'd have thought that might look favourably on our appeals.

 

 

Craig Thomson refereed the Inverness v Falkirk (Championship) game on the first week of the League season

John Beaton was not given a game to referee the first week, he was 4th official at the Celtic v Hearts

Willie Collum refereed the Morton v St Mirren (Championship) game last week

Steven McLean refereed the Dunfermline v Inverness (Championship) game last week

 

So it's not a demotion, they just don't referee in the Premiership every week. When they are given a League 1 or League 2 game then maybe consider it a demotion.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

http://www.motherwellfc.co.uk/2017/08/17/judicial-panel-appeal-outcomes/

 

Motherwell FC’s trio of appeals were heard at Hampden Park this morning in front of the Judicial Panel.

The appeals against Charles Dunne’s red card at Ross County and Trevor Carson’s dismissal at St Johnstone were both rejected.

However, the appeal against Charles Dunne’s red card against St Johnstone was upheld.

Trevor Carson, alongside skipper Carl McHugh, will now be suspended for Saturday’s match against Ross County. Charles Dunne will serve his one-match ban in the Betfred Cup Quarter Final against Aberdeen next month.

[wellowell]

No surprise there although I still think Carson,s was touch and go on goal scoring opportunity stakes was never going to be overturned though as Dunne,s was a stick on to be and imo would never make ref out to be that incompetant even though he is .