The Small-Medium Rebuild 2018'19

[mfc88]

Andy robertson is the exception rather than the rule. And as weeyin says he was signed for the first team.

I was in no way suggesting that any youngster signs, with a view to finishing their career at us, just to make a name for themselves at spl level  - I probably didn't word that last bit so well.

What I was getting at is, without a doubt, another year or two experience at our level will set them up better for the step up, with still plenty time left in their careers.

Kennedy is a brilliant player IMO and I wonder where he'd be now had he done so - better salary than st johnstone can pay I'll bet. Yeah he's pocketed a few years worth of higher wages, but in my opinion, sacrifice that and he would have been more likely to set himself up for a much longer period on much better wages. Now at the age of 25 (ish?), after not making it in the EPL, such offers will be harder to come by.

I do see the point you're making though, David. Above is just my opinion on the matter and largely hypothetical, I guess.

[superward]

It's easy to look back once a player has moved on from us and say they should have stayed as having more regular games at SPFL level would have been best for them.

When the actual decision has to be made there are so many variables with the player, the club (i.e. us), the club they are potentially moving too that it's overly simplistic imo, to state that staying at Motherwell for that extra couple of years to get regular games will always see them set up better for the future. It's definitely better for us and it's definitely the least risky option but it's not cut and dry in every situation.

If a player makes a decision purely based on cash at a young age it's definable ill advised and risky.  But if they really think they can make a move, get some extra cash, play  in great training facilities with good coaches and play first team football in a couple of years then it would be hard to knock it back. All depends on the situation and well advised they are.

 

 

 

[David]

The thing is, what if Hastie for example, does really well the rest of this season. He get's some pretty big money offers from a few English Championship clubs. We're talking about three year contracts offered.

He says no, listens to the people saying he should stay at Motherwell and learn his trade.

Next season his form dips badly, he gets dropped, fades away and ends up quietly being let go and plying his trade part-time by the time he's 23 or 24.

The harsh truth is, you never know what's around the corner. If a company offered me twice or three times my wages to do the same job for them in a higher profile environment I'd be all over it. And so would most of you. Especially if you knew it was a career that would only last for 15 years or so.

And lets be honest, a player who leaves our league and goes down south to a side like Leeds or Norwich, even if they fail, they're pretty much guaranteed a move back up here to a club of similar standing to the one they left, on the same kind of money they would have been getting anyway.

[mfc88]

Whatever way you spin it.... make a success of being a footballer and the money will follow. It doesnt necessarily work the other way around.

All I'm saying is I hope he looks at those who have opted for the latter before him..... According to Wikipedia and Ben hall has played 11 league games since leaving us 2.5 years ago (edit to add: in league 2), he played 18 league games for us in the space of about half a season before that. I'm sure football-wise he'd be in a much better position had he stayed with us for longer.

 

[AllyMax]

1 hour ago, David said:

The thing is, what if Hastie for example, does really well the rest of this season. He get's some pretty big money offers from a few English Championship clubs. We're talking about three year contracts offered.

He says no, listens to the people saying he should stay at Motherwell and learn his trade.

Next season his form dips badly, he gets dropped, fades away and ends up quietly being let go and plying his trade part-time by the time he's 23 or 24.

The harsh truth is, you never know what's around the corner. If a company offered me twice or three times my wages to do the same job for them in a higher profile environment I'd be all over it. And so would most of you. Especially if you knew it was a career that would only last for 15 years or so.

And lets be honest, a player who leaves our league and goes down south to a side like Leeds or Norwich, even if they fail, they're pretty much guaranteed a move back up here to a club of similar standing to the one they left, on the same kind of money they would have been getting anyway.

Ask Lee Erwin if that's accurate.

[Busta Nut]

Money = good.

[Yabba's Turd]

9 hours ago, David said:

The harsh truth is, you never know what's around the corner. If a company offered me twice or three times my wages to do the same job for them in a higher profile environment I'd be all over it. And so would most of you. Especially if you knew it was a career that would only last for 15 years or so.

You're not being offered more money to do the same job, you're being offered the money to realise a potential. 

[David]

12 hours ago, AllyMax said:

Ask Lee Erwin if that's accurate.

Lee Erwin went to Leeds before coming back up the road to play for Killie, didn't he? So it was accurate in his case. He then decided to opt for another money move to Iran, where it looks as though he's not able to handle it, citing homesickness as the reason or something similar.

If you're going to chase the money, especially to somewhere like that, you need to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth. It's not going to be like the UK, and you have to work through that. Apparently he claimed depression but was able to attend a training camp a few days after the club wrote him a letter.

I think that's more to do with him being a bit of a walloper than anything else. 

3 hours ago, Yabba's Turd said:

You're not being offered more money to do the same job, you're being offered the money to realise a potential. 

You're being paid more money to play football, which is what you're being offered at Motherwell. Realisation of potential or not, if you sign a three year deal at an English Championship club on a set wage and with a nice signing-on fee you're going to get paid that regardless of what potential you realise.

Considering the mentality it takes for a young player to even make it as far as lacing up his boots for our first team, I'd be very surprised if there's any who would get an offer from a side like Leeds or Norwich and who wouldn't think "I can go down there and tear it up, no problem."

If a player decides to stay in a particular place due to family reasons, such as his other half not keen on moving, kids in school, any of that, then fair enough, as family comes first. But if they get an offer from a bigger club and seriously think "nah, I'll never get a game there" they maybe need to question their own ambition and belief in their ability.

12 hours ago, mfc88 said:

Whatever way you spin it.... make a success of being a footballer and the money will follow. It doesnt necessarily work the other way around.

All I'm saying is I hope he looks at those who have opted for the latter before him..... According to Wikipedia and Ben hall has played 11 league games since leaving us 2.5 years ago (edit to add: in league 2), he played 18 league games for us in the space of about half a season before that. I'm sure football-wise he'd be in a much better position had he stayed with us for longer.

Maybe Ben Hall stays with us and does fuck all though? Eventually getting farmed out a few times before being let go? Maybe the reason why he's not set the heather alight down south is because he's not that good? What then? 

Again, you strike when the iron is hot. Most of these guys aren't being paid an absolute fortune, so they need to make as much as they can before their career is over by their mid 30's. Maybe their late 30's if they're lucky.

It comes down to the player in question either thinking like a fan, or thinking like a professional. I know that isn't what we like to hear, but it's the truth.

If I was faced with the option of staying at Motherwell (even with me being a Motherwell fan) and getting more game time but significantly less money, or moving to a Championship side down south and earning the kind of money that would go a long way to securing a better life for my wife and kids then it's a no fucking brainer.

Keep your football time and achieving something in the game. If given the choice of lifting the Scottish cup for Motherwell but having to live in Lanarkshire and work as a sports coach while my wife works as a receptionist when I retire, or moving down south and playing for seven or eight years in the Championship then coming up the road at the tail end with a healthy bank account and being able to retire and provide a better life for my family, then I'll make do with watching that Scottish cup win from the stands or on TV.

That may be sacrilege to a lot of fans, but the welfare and lifestyle afforded my family would always come first, which is why I never grudge anyone who looks to earn as much as they can. 

I hope Hastie stays at Fir Park, as I'm thinking like a fan. If he decides to make the jump when the offer is there though, then fair play to him and best of luck. Hopefully he'll be banking his money and managing it efficiently.

[Big Stall]

Serious question  -what sort of wages would an up and coming youth at Motherwell who is just breaking into the first team be on? Presumably he's still getting paid what he's been on the last few years and it will be pretty low? I expect a proper first team wage at Motherwell would be a good step up for any of these lads, but the eyes must start bulging if a Leeds or Norwich dangle a wedge.... We would all be the same, particularly at that age. Yes, we might start weighing up opportunities, family ties, development, first team football etc but if you are a 19 year old on a couple of hundred quid a week (i have no idea if this is anywhere near accurate) and a big Championship club  drop in and offer you £2000 - £3000 per week? Then it would be hard thing to knock back for anyone, let alone a 19 year old.

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, David said:

Maybe Ben Hall stays with us and does fuck all though? Eventually getting farmed out a few times before being let go? Maybe the reason why he's not set the heather alight down south is because he's not that good? What then? 

I've had this thought rolling about my head for the past couple of weeks, mainly after looking at Ryan Gauld returning to Hibs. My general feeling is that players absolutely deserve credit for heading to the continent to get a new experience and a different culture both socially and footballing wise. The English lads Sancho and Nelson seem to have absolutely flown since going to Germany, as an example. But with Gauld, has moving to Lisbon made him a better player, or would staying in Scotland playing games of football at a more competitive level have made him a more complete player now? If he'd stayed and played another season would he have been more ready to go to Lisbon and play for them, rather than their youth teams or the clubs he went on loan to?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and sometimes players just aren't good enough.

Same goes for Hall, Erwin and many others, but fundamentally;

13 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

Money = good.

Is the truth, and I'd be hard pressed to argue against this in any way.

[AlmostFrazzled]

1 hour ago, thisGRAEME said:

I've had this thought rolling about my head for the past couple of weeks, mainly after looking at Ryan Gauld returning to Hibs. My general feeling is that players absolutely deserve credit for heading to the continent to get a new experience and a different culture both socially and footballing wise. The English lads Sancho and Nelson seem to have absolutely flown since going to Germany, as an example. But with Gauld, has moving to Lisbon made him a better player, or would staying in Scotland playing games of football at a more competitive level have made him a more complete player now? If he'd stayed and played another season would he have been more ready to go to Lisbon and play for them, rather than their youth teams or the clubs he went on loan to?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and sometimes players just aren't good enough.

Same goes for Hall, Erwin and many others, but fundamentally;

Is the truth, and I'd be hard pressed to argue against this in any way.

Respect to anyone who makes a go of it on the continent. Almost wonder why Gauld bothered coming back because I would absolutely be happy jobbing round lower league Portugal until I crashed into my 30s. 

[Neilwell86]

Was there not talk of Lee Erwin earning something  in the region of 10k a week whilst at Leeds?

[Yabba's Turd]

2 hours ago, David said:

 

You're being paid more money to play football, which is what you're being offered at Motherwell. Realisation of potential or not, if you sign a three year deal at an English Championship club on a set wage and with a nice signing-on fee you're going to get paid that regardless of what potential you realise.

 

You are being paid more because it's a higher level, I guarantee if you don't perform to that 3 year contract you'll be either transferred or loaned, you'll still get your cash, but you'll toil after that.
 

[David]

2 minutes ago, Yabba's Turd said:

You are being paid more because it's a higher level, I guarantee if you don't perform to that 3 year contract you'll be either transferred or loaned, you'll still get your cash, but you'll toil after that.

Yeah, but you have to assume the club who are paying the money have seen something in you to believe you have what it takes, no? What I'm saying is that even if you go to a club like Leeds from Motherwell and fail, doing the rounds on loan of some English League One clubs or whatever, you're still going to be paid what your contract stipulates.

And more often than not, a prospect who's left the SPFL to go to the English Championship can find a club in the SPFL who are willing to take a punt when their contract runs out down south, so they end up back where they started at worst, except with more cash in their pocket and more life experience.

[Spiderpig]

I see the BBC gossip page has us potentially linked with Armenian international keeper Henri Avagyan, Wonder if Carson or Gillespie might be moving on

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47223047

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, AlmostFrazzled said:

Respect to anyone who makes a go of it on the continent. Almost wonder why Gauld bothered coming back because I would absolutely be happy jobbing round lower league Portugal until I crashed into my 30s. 

Oh, same. Stick me in Portuguese football and I'll make my money through looking like a belter on Instagram for ten years.

[Yorkyred]

I’m a Motherwell fan but if offered a deal that tripled my wage I would move regardless. 

[weeyin]

1 hour ago, Yorkyred said:

I’m a Motherwell fan but if offered a deal that tripled my wage I would move regardless. 

Right. But it's not as simple as that.

What if option A was to move now to a deal that tripled your wages for the next 3 years, but the following 12 years would be spent at QoS and Falkirk at half your current wage. And option B is stay on your current wage for the next 3 years,  but then move to a new club and continue to get a better wage for the next 12 years.

That's what young players have to weigh up - and part of it is still guess work as whether it's better to take the money in short term, or do your time now in the anticipation of a bigger return on the long term.

[David]

17 minutes ago, weeyin said:

What if option A was to move now to a deal that tripled your wages for the next 3 years, but the following 12 years would be spent at QoS and Falkirk at half your current wage.

Not sure that there's really much of a track record of players leaving a club that's capable of paying 3 times what we could and moving directly to QoS or Falkirk, is there? Even those young players who are considered failures at clubs in the English Championship are offered another roll of the dice at SPFL level.

Usually, at worst, they find their way back to a mid-table club in our top league. They may drift after that point, but that'll be down to them not being worth a deal at that level.

[Busta Nut]

I reckon if you wanted to you could find loads of examples of guys who ended up in all possible outcomes. Out the game. Lower league. Decent level and the few who bettered themselves massively.

[AlmostFrazzled]

2 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

Oh, same. Stick me in Portuguese football and I'll make my money through looking like a belter on Instagram for ten years.

*looks at Liam Henderson*

[Busta Nut]

2 hours ago, AlmostFrazzled said:

Respect to anyone who makes a go of it on the continent. Almost wonder why Gauld bothered coming back because I would absolutely be happy jobbing round lower league Portugal until I crashed into my 30s. 

 

2 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

Oh, same. Stick me in Portuguese football and I'll make my money through looking like a belter on Instagram for ten years.

I mentioned it somewhere last week. Luke Watt is in Croatia somewhere and since I looked up the location of the town I thought, fair enough. He's playing fitba, good weather. Nothing else needed

[weeyin]

50 minutes ago, David said:

Not sure that there's really much of a track record of players leaving a club that's capable of paying 3 times what we could and moving directly to QoS or Falkirk, is there? Even those young players who are considered failures at clubs in the English Championship are offered another roll of the dice at SPFL level.

Usually, at worst, they find their way back to a mid-table club in our top league. They may drift after that point, but that'll be down to them not being worth a deal at that level.

Well Lee Erwin's move's to Leeds immediately springs to mind. Paul Slane, although he moved to Celtic rather than down south, no doubt took a large salary increase.

 

[David]

7 minutes ago, weeyin said:

Well Lee Erwin's move's to Leeds immediately springs to mind.

Lee Erwin left Leeds after two years of a three year deal, earning great money and being given a payout to end his contract early I believe. He then ended up at Kilmarnock, where he played around 40 times and could have remained if he'd chosen to.

Despite him choosing to chase more money in Iran of all places, the fact is that he did go away down south, earn a decent wedge, then came back to SPFL level. 

Slane's problems started with his cruciate injury, which could easily have happened at Motherwell as it did at Celtic. The only real difference was that he had a four year contract at Celtic, which included three years of a good wage and a payout to leave early.

He's since been suggested as having pissed away a lot of his money, which doesn't mean he was wrong to make the move, it means he's a walloper most likely, and you can't account for that. He'd likely have been a walloper had he stayed with us as well.

A smart footballer will go where the money is within reason, keep his head down, train and act like a professional, and if they're good enough they'll do well in the game and more importantly be able to continue living well after their time playing is up.

In all of this discussion my main point is that you strike when the iron is hot. There's no guarantee that a Norwich, Leeds, Celtic or whoever are going to revisit and make the same offer in a year or two. 

The whole "don't move on quite yet, stay and better your game and learn your craft" chat usually comes from the club and the fans of the club who stand to lose said player on the cheap. If the same player was under contract and the interested club offered a sizeable fee the tone of the discussion would be different.

We look at the likes of Hastie's situation as fans of Motherwell. We want him to stay and improve mostly because it will help the team, and because we'd get a tidy fee if he continues to improve and we can punt him at a later date.

And if he gets crocked or falls away? Ah well, that's how it goes, right? What he does after his time in the game finishes is of fuck all concern to us unless he's a decent coach and can work with the kids. 

[Yassin]

Andy Robertson should have stayed at Queens Park for a few more years and learned his trade. Shame he chose the money at Dundee United.