The Small-Medium Rebuild 2018'19

[ONeils4oyarder]

11 hours ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

Robbo has his faults for sure, but so do we all and all Managers for that matter. 

You look at what Killie have done under Clark. It has been quite frankly sensational but yet according to recent article they pay their players on average 30% more in wages or at least basic wages. 

An average salary of £47k does not buy you many quality footballers. In fact almost every player we bring is a gamble. Some of which have paid off and handsomely - Moult, Johnson and Kipre. 

We have the lowest wages apart from Livingston, St Mirren and Hamilton. Finishing above them or above 3 teams is where our budget suggests we should be and actually exactly where we are right now. 

I am not saying we should stick with Robinson come what may, but I see all this criticism and I am not sure it is warranted nor am I sure we could find a replacement who could achieve a hell of a lot more with a similar budget.  

I'm not 100% sure on this, but is our average pay a direct reflection of the fucking size of our bloated squad? I don't believe for a second that we have a lower wage bill than Hamilton Accies for a kick-off...

[Del_Superwell]

I see Robinson is saying on the STV sport page that he will be offloading some squad players in January and promoting some of the younger ones to the squad,  better late than never I guess.

[superward]

otherwell boss Stephen Robinson's frustration over the consistency of his team is set to spark some changes during the transfer window.

The Steelmen have struggled to replicate their displays of last season and currently sit ninth in the Premiership.

Robinson added the likes of Liam Donnelly, Aaron Taylor-Sinclair and Conor Sammon during the summer to improve his hand.

 

But with his team struggling for form and missing key players Chris Cadden and Trevor Carson long-term, the Northern Irish coach said he'll consider new tactics for the transfer market come January.

He said: "I don't have any money to replace anybody at this moment in time.

"It'll have to be a case of trying to get people out.

"There's players we have brought in, we perhaps have to move some of them on, which we'll do over the course of the next few weeks.

"That's easier said than done.

"Once players have contracts it's not quite as easy to do that.

"I'm well aware everybody needs to freshen things up.

"In the summer I strengthened our squad because our budget allowed me to.

"I didn't feel our starting 11 could be strengthened with the budget we have.

"That's something I needed to look at and perhaps some of young boys who weren't quite ready will be ready by Christmas.

"David Turnbull, Allan Campbell is improving all the time.

"Barry Maguire came in and did OK on Saturday.

"Jake Hastie, who is out on loan, wasn't ready to start in the summer, he is one we may bring back because we do lack wide men.

"There are young boys who have moved on which perhaps allows me to move some of the squad players out if we are able to do that and strengthen our starting XI."

Robinson has parked contract talks with Turnbull, who has been a revelation in recent weeks.

"He wants to sign for the football club, whether his representative believes that's the right thing to do I'm not so sure," Robinson said.

"We've tried to let him concentrate on his football. Let him enjoy himself and hopefully he'll keep doing what he's doing."

It's important we get a bit of experience back in the team and get back to doing the basics better than the other team.

Stephen Robinson on Motherwell's inconsitency

https://stv.tv/sport/football/1433484-robinson-plans-new-transfer-strategy-to-spark-motherwell/

Celtic visit Fir Park on Wednesday, with Motherwell looking to take points off the champions once again after doing so twice at home last season.

Robinson is to welcome back experienced performers Peter Hartley and Carl McHugh after suspension, while Andy Rose could return after recent injury problems.

He added: "We have been up and down this season, we've lacked consistency, and how you get that back is do the simple things well each week, what I call the free stuff in football - run further than your opponent, make sure you land on second balls.

"If we go and try and outplay Celtic, the reality is we'll lose the game. History tells you that.

"We've had to tweak things, we haven't been quite as physical, we haven't had people that were rattling about, we have had to put more footballers in the team due to injuries and circumstances.

"If you look at our team on Saturday, Barry (Maguire) and Christian (Mbulu), two young boys, Allan Campbell and David Turnbull.

"So it's important we get a bit of experience back in the team again, a bit of know-how, and get back to doing the basics better than the other team."

[Gadgey]

Sooooooo.......

Taking his comments into consideration, who won’t be with us on the 1st of February?

[weeyin]

On 12/3/2018 at 6:23 AM, Ya Bezzer! said:

Maguire is 20 years old, has been at the club since 2015-16 and has 5 appearances.  A player like Stevie Hammell would have had over 100 club appearances at the same age.

Maguire is a classic example of how bad we are at developing talent these days through lack of first team exposure.

Aye.

Remember that long list of youngsters that have left us and proved how wrong we were by turning it great performance at a higher (or even similar) level?

 

[David]

On 12/2/2018 at 10:23 AM, Kmcalpin said:

By my calculations, something like  15 players, including 2 loanees will be out of contract at the end of the season.  A massive clearout on the cards?  How many from Aldred, ATS, Bigirimana, Bowman, Cadden, Frear, Gorrin, Grimshaw, Main, Mbulu, McHugh,  Rose, Tanner, Newell and Sammon would we really want to keep? In my view about a third of them.  

This can be taken as relatively good news if we end up in the position of bringing in a new manager in the summer, as it means he'll have a blank slate and some wages to play with. 

[DEWELL]

Out of these players out of contract I'd  keep Aldred, Bowman, Grimshaw, McHugh and Cadden. Jury's out with Curtis Main and Biggi.

[Kmac]

18 hours ago, DEWELL said:

Out of these players out of contract I'd  keep Aldred, Bowman, Grimshaw, McHugh and Cadden. Jury's out with Curtis Main and Biggi.

Agree with that with the exception of Bowman and maybe Grimshaw.

Finally. Good to see Robinson talk some sense regarding transfers. Was an awful summer transfer window, with many on here including myself screaming for a few players of real quality rather than a mass of lower league English bodies. 

[superward]

Daily Express reporting Swansea interested in oor David Turnbull and Shankland, from Ayr. 

That will be the background perhaps to the manager comments about Turnbull wanting to stay but agent having other ideas...

[David]

1 hour ago, superward said:

Daily Express reporting Swansea interested in oor David Turnbull and Shankland, from Ayr. 

That will be the background perhaps to the manager comments about Turnbull wanting to stay but agent having other ideas...

It depends what kind of money he's offered, doesn't it? If Swansea offer treble what we can offer he'd have to seriously consider it. Anyone who says they wouldn't is either mental or lying.

[superward]

18 minutes ago, David said:

It depends what kind of money he's offered, doesn't it? If Swansea offer treble what we can offer he'd have to seriously consider it. Anyone who says they wouldn't is either mental or lying.

Yep defintley.  Would be a shame to lose him so early  if indeed he chooses to go. If we do then weve probably got some thinking to do on our strategy of bleeding in young players and offering of contracts. Hard balance mind you.  

[David]

7 minutes ago, superward said:

Yep defintley.  Would be a shame to lose him so early  if indeed he chooses to go. If we do then weve probably got some thinking to do on our strategy of bleeding in young players and offering of contracts. Hard balance mind you.  

Aye, it's a hard balance for sure, because until they've played in the first team we don't know how good they are, unless it's an obvious stand-out talent. Hopefully he stays and signs a new deal, but I wouldn't blame him if he does go. He'll know that if he doesn't continue progressing as he is after signing a new deal with us he could just as easily slip into mediocrity, so the temptation of a deal with good money down south will be hard to knock back if it arises.

[Brazilian]

1 hour ago, superward said:

Daily Express reporting Swansea interested in oor David Turnbull and Shankland, from Ayr. 

That will be the background perhaps to the manager comments about Turnbull wanting to stay but agent having other ideas...

The Shankland to Swansea part of that has advanced way beyond interest, so quite possible  if Turnbull was on their radar he could get an offer.

the argument of youth players leaving not reaching the same or higher level so it’s right to dump them is so flawed, sure an exceptional talent might recover from being offloaded and rise up, but some just don’t get the full development that could have taken them up that next rung, 

I’d say we as a business! Incur way too much labour cost from not getting some of the youth more game time vs importing mediocre squad players,

and ignoring the business, I’d rather see the passion and determination of our own youth getting chances than the surplus we keep signing and pushing for first half of season before kid get their chance

[Ya Bezzer!]

On 12/6/2018 at 2:05 PM, weeyin said:

Aye.

Remember that long list of youngsters that have left us and proved how wrong we were by turning it great performance at a higher (or even similar) level?

 

Yeah, that's how football works.  An absolutely idiotic statement.

Footballers that succeed are developed between the ages of 16 - 19.   Releasing a player at 21 with virtually no first team experience and having him slide down the system to lower leagues or juniors is hardly the road to developmental success - and that's the lucky ones.

Most footballers drop out of the professional game after being released and it's nothing to do with talent. 

Every successful country in the world has youth programmes miles ahead of ours but let's just keep on importing English non league players, English academy players and foreign flotsam and jetsom until the standard of the league falls even lower than it is now.

[superward]

We'll see what happens with Turnbull I guess. Hope we don't lose him.

As for the future with youth, I do agree we need to see them earlier in the first team than we generally do to increase the chances of of a youth progressing to become a solid first team player. 

Wether that's our academy and reserve structure not getting them ready early enough for the manager to feel confident to pick them, or the first team manager not picking them early enough, or a bit of both doesn't really matter to me. It needs reviewed and then improved so the 'pathway' works better. So over to Hammel, Craigan and Robinson to do that...

[Kmcalpin]

6 hours ago, David said:

Aye, it's a hard balance for sure, because until they've played in the first team we don't know how good they are, unless it's an obvious stand-out talent. Hopefully he stays and signs a new deal, but I wouldn't blame him if he does go. He'll know that if he doesn't continue progressing as he is after signing a new deal with us he could just as easily slip into mediocrity, so the temptation of a deal with good money down south will be hard to knock back if it arises.

The support seems to be split about David Turnbull.  FWIW my view is that he should sign a year's deal or 2 years at the most, with us before moving on.  He's got a lot to learn yet but he doesn't want to end up in Chris Cadden's position.  He should be aware though that his agent's view will be heavily influenced by the prospect of a nice fat fee.   That said I do understand those fans who are "advising" him to jump to a bigger club. 

[Yodo]

9 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

  He's got a lot to learn yet but he doesn't want to end up in Chris Cadden's position. 

Whit right back 

[Gadgey]

10 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Yeah, that's how football works.  An absolutely idiotic statement.

Footballers that succeed are developed between the ages of 16 - 19.   Releasing a player at 21 with virtually no first team experience and having him slide down the system to lower leagues or juniors is hardly the road to developmental success - and that's the lucky ones.

Most footballers drop out of the professional game after being released and it's nothing to do with talent. 

Every successful country in the world has youth programmes miles ahead of ours but let's just keep on importing English non league players, English academy players and foreign flotsam and jetsom until the standard of the league falls even lower than it is now.

What you describe is exactly what destroyed Scottish football from the late 80s into the 90s and onwards. It’s no coincidence that Scotlands national team has been weak during this period as well.

This particular problem is not isolated to Motherwell and whilst your ideology is admirable for a long term vision (there needs to be wholesale systemic change), what do you suggest is done in the short term? The here and now. How is the gap between imported journeymen and homegrown high quality professional footballers bridged?

It should be on that there should be discussion because I’m pretty fuckin tired of the same old qualificationless wingeing bastards coming on here slamming a manager (it’s not been exclusive to Robinson) for failing to flood the team with kids who may or may not be ready, and then still not being content when those same kids are either not up to it or are perceived to be flogged.

Utterly utterly tiresome.

So I challenge any one of the roasters......

If you want that gap bridged. What solution should be put in place for Motherwell and the Scottish coaching system to transform the game?

And whilst you’re at it, you want rid of this manager. Who would be the manager you’d want to implement your plan?

[David]

16 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

He should be aware though that his agent's view will be heavily influenced by the prospect of a nice fat fee.

I know there's this tendency for fans to view agents as cynical, selfish types who are just out for themselves, but that's not really true. any agent operating like that wouldn't be able to win clients.

An agent's job is to make sure that his client earns as much money as possible in what is really a short career. Most players are done by age 35 or so, and having enough coin in the bank to live off and maybe invest and start a business or whatever outside football is the aim.

In any line of work, if you're doing well and winning some plaudits, you'd be daft not to capitalise on that, especially when the plaudits can just as easily go away as quickly as they arrived. If a company offers you double or even treble your salary you most likely take it, and any agent worth his salt will advise his client that this is a business, and you do what's right for yourself and your family financially.

[Kmcalpin]

49 minutes ago, David said:

I know there's this tendency for fans to view agents as cynical, selfish types who are just out for themselves, but that's not really true. any agent operating like that wouldn't be able to win clients.

An agent's job is to make sure that his client earns as much money as possible in what is really a short career. Most players are done by age 35 or so, and having enough coin in the bank to live off and maybe invest and start a business or whatever outside football is the aim.

In any line of work, if you're doing well and winning some plaudits, you'd be daft not to capitalise on that, especially when the plaudits can just as easily go away as quickly as they arrived. If a company offers you double or even treble your salary you most likely take it, and any agent worth his salt will advise his client that this is a business, and you do what's right for yourself and your family financially.

There are agents and agents as the powers that be at Fir Park will tell you.  Some are honourable and conduct themselves as you say.  Others are ruthless and don't care about their clients; they simply want their dosh. 

As far as careers go not everyone is money oriented and desperate to become the next CEO by the time they're 23.  In some cases a move for more money might be premature or simply not be right.  I've seen colleagues turn down far better paid positions because they didn't like the company, their methods or their personnel.

Money is important yes, but its certainly not the end all and be all.   

[Al B]

I think your colleagues would have a very different view if their career had been guaranteed to end in their mid-30s at the latest, perhaps much earlier if they were injured.

[David]

10 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

There are agents and agents as the powers that be at Fir Park will tell you.  Some are honourable and conduct themselves as you say.  Others are ruthless and don't care about their clients; they simply want their dosh. 

Again, an agent who is simply in it to make himself as much money as possible, and who doesn't care about his clients won't be in the game for long. There are agents who are in it to make both themselves and their clients as much money as possible though, and those agents are a perfect fit for a player who doesn't care where he is as long as he's racking up coin.

12 minutes ago, Kmcalpin said:

As far as careers go not everyone is money oriented and desperate to become the next CEO by the time they're 23.

23 in the footballing world is realistically around 12 years from retirement, so in real-world terms a footballer at 23 should have the equivalent ambition of someone in a regular job when they're 53 years old. At that age you're already thinking about a life after work, and you need money for that.

9 minutes ago, Al B said:

I think your colleagues would have a very different view if their career had been guaranteed to end in their mid-30s at the latest, perhaps much earlier if they were injured.

Exactly.

It comes down to how much the player is willing to gamble really. For example, Turnbull could sign a new deal, make okay money for a few years and perform really well before winning a big move down south with triple his wages on offer or even more. But, he could just as easily sign that new deal, not hit the heights he hopes (or get injured) and end up seeing out his deal before moving to part-time football further down the leagues.

Or, he could get that big offer while his stock is high, make the move and guarantee the cash for a few years. Then he either makes it into the team down south, earns a bigger and better deal and progresses from there, or he doesn't make the cut, and eventually returns back to the SPFL to probably get the deal from somewhere that Motherwell were offering in the first place, except he has those triple wage packets from the past few years in his pocket as well.

Personally, even as a Motherwell fan I'd take the deal from down south if it was a substantial pay raise. I have no doubt that, fan or not, if I didn't do well at the club they'd have no qualms about letting me go, so why should I treat it as anything other than a professional relationship?

When I'm 40 and retired with cash in the bank I'll come back and support the club as a fan.

[Wellfan1984]

Footballers careers only end at 30+ if they choose.  There is coaching, management and punditry after that.  Not to mention "normal" work.  

[siebsbarmyarmy]

55 minutes ago, Wellfan1984 said:

Footballers careers only end at 30+ if they choose.  There is coaching, management and punditry after that.  Not to mention "normal" work.  

That’s what really infuriates me. You would believe players are unable to find other work when their career finishes. 

Utterly kills me when you hear the short career chat. They retire essentially in the prime of their lives and are physically in a better condition than your average Joe who works a 40hr week from the age of 18.

I understand that they want to maximise the time playing to make as much as possible but the short career chat is ridiculous.

[David]

1 hour ago, Wellfan1984 said:

Footballers careers only end at 30+ if they choose.  There is coaching, management and punditry after that.  Not to mention "normal" work. 

Obviously there's "normal" work, but we're talking about when their earning potential as an actual player ends. Rarely will a player finish playing and go on to earn more money as a coach or manager than they do playing.

19 minutes ago, siebsbarmyarmy said:

That’s what really infuriates me. You would believe players are unable to find other work when their career finishes. 

Again, what I'm talking about is at that level of earning power. 

The whole point I was making was that if a player, of any age, is offered the chance to sign for a club and triple his weekly wage there's a good chance he takes it, especially as it means they're in a better position financially to move into something else when their playing career ends.