Our start to the season

[fizoxy]

This topic is spread around the various match threads, but I’m interested in people’s thoughts on where we expected to be at this point in the season, and what our problems have been.

 

For me, the only result so far that I would have expected anything else from is the Hamilton one. I can’t remember the last time we could have realistically gone into games with hearts, hibs, rangers and Aberdeen and expected anything other than losses. Hibs is he only game that we could say we were never in it, but the other losses we had late opportunities to take something, and may also have some grievances regarding decisions.

 

So my guess is that the points tally isn’t the issue here. The way we play gets plenty of attention, so if we had the same results but with more attractive performances would that change the perception?

 

I don’t think anyone was happy with the signings as a whole, so where could we have done better (within our budget)?

 

I’m not really decided, I may have lower standards based on the Motherwell team I grew up with, but I don’t think our style is that bad. I’d say that bringing in a proper left wing back is the biggest mistake we made in the summer.

 

Either way, I think there is a lot of pressure going into the more “winnable” run of games.

 

 

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[The African]

We are where we are. Not great, not Dundee.

Recruitment currently looks like a misuse of funds. Apparently we have fifty players on our books which, for a club our size, is too many. Maybe partly due to players we expected to leave not getting offers or deciding to stay and give it another go -  Carson, Bigi, Frear, one of Cadden or Campbell. The decision to resign both Rose and Grimshaw looks a little extravagant but they were only one year deals and both put in a shift at stages last season, so a difficult decision fudged? Injuries will always be a factor as well, good luck to Dunne and Tanner when they return. It is really too early to tell on any of the new guys and the size of our squad makes it hard for anyone coming into the team. It is unreasonably expected that they will hit the ground running or they will be immediately labelled a dud.

I do think we lack a cutting edge and goals. We need something to happen, be it Johnson turning out to be a gem or Main 's mojo returning. Left back is still an issue. Shows how luck we have been over the years, most recently with Hammell.

Twas ever thus. Hopefully we will be okay.

 

[joewarkfanclub]

I was pretty happy with my lot last year. Yes the football wasnt always the prettiest but nowhere near as bad as some made out. 2 cup finals and just missing out on top 6 seemed like pretty good progress from the year before.

If Im really honest, I am disappointed we havent kicked on this season and built on last years success. There are reasons for that of course, losing Cedric was always going to hurt and injuries to Dunne, Tanner and Bowman havent helped our start. Main has been carrying an injury and Caddens form has dropped right off.

My biggest disappointment is that other than Aldred, who isnt really new, and Johnson, who has shown some promise, none of the signings seem to have made any impact.

Gillespie seems a decent back up and may eventually replace Carson.

ATS, I think was signed as the left wing back we were needing, but for whatever reason hasnt shown enough to be picked.

Donnelly and Mbulu are both young and probably signed as development players who might make us money in the future.

Gorrin was clearly signed as a replacement for Bigi who has ended up staying so hasnt really had a chance.

Sammon is the one signing that I cant fathom. With Main, Bowman and Johnson  and Newell all on the books I just didnt see the need for him. I dont think he is absolute shite but we have 2 players who can play his role better.

We dont know how much of last years money the manager got to spend. You can bet it was a relatively small proportion of what we made as we have to take these opportunities to pay down the debt. We also dont know who was available in our price range that wanted to come to us. That said, I would still have expected us to be able to see some improvement in the quality of the squad which hasnt really materialised as yet.

Im not overly concerned with the results so far with the exception of Accies who we should have beaten, and some of our performances, particularly against Rangers have been good. Its a long season ahead and there is plenty time to improve.

I still think Robbo is the right man for the job, albeit I think he has made mistakes in team selection and substitutions at times, but he is as good a manager as we are going to get and I think he buys into the ethos of the club and what we are about in terms of being a fanowned community club. Much rather have him than some of the usual suspects.

There is plenty of room for improvement though, and now that we are out the cup he will have his work cut out keeping the baying wolves from the door.

[Kmcalpin]

9 hours ago, joewarkfanclub said:

If Im really honest, I am disappointed we havent kicked on this season and built on last years success. There are reasons for that of course, losing Cedric was always going to hurt and injuries to Dunne, Tanner and Bowman havent helped our start. Main has been carrying an injury and Caddens form has dropped right off.

My biggest disappointment is that other than Aldred, who isnt really new, and Johnson, who has shown some promise, none of the signings seem to have made any impact.

Gillespie seems a decent back up and may eventually replace Carson.

ATS, I think was signed as the left wing back we were needing, but for whatever reason hasnt shown enough to be picked.

Sammon is the one signing that I cant fathom.

Im not overly concerned with the results so far with the exception of Accies who we should have beaten, and some of our performances, particularly against Rangers have been good. Its a long season ahead and there is plenty time to improve.

 

Fair comment.  Its still only late September but I do question some of our summer signings.  Gillespie and Johnson look good, whilst one or two others like Gorrin remain untested. 

Aldred?  I like him as a player but not as a replacement for Kipre.  To me he and Hartley are similar and its disappointing that after an injury to one defender, Dunne, we have to move McHugh back. 

ATS I don't get.  I expected him to slot in, albeit after a a long term injury but he just doesn't seem to have impressed.  

Sammon?  I agree that we needed another striker but not him.  

Hindsight is a great thing but we could have still improved the fringe squad slightly but also brought in another decent striker and centre back.  In ohter words brought in slightly less but better quality players.   Lads like Maguire and Turnbull can do a turn if only in an emergency.  

Bigi is a real enigma to me.  On his day, against lesser teams, he can provide some creativity  but struggles against better sides.  He's no defender though.  Still he is what he is and Robbo will pick him or not knowing his strengths and weaknesses. 

 

[CoF]

I can see a wee bit of that hysteria creeping in among the fans, but I do think it's completely devoid of perspective at this stage. 

Since August we've played 8 games.

3 of them we'd have hoped to have won (Dundee, Accies, Livi) - we've won 2. 

The other 5 were against Rangers, Hearts, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen. We've lost 4 and drawn 1 however, it's not 2012 anymore - the city clubs have got their shit together and are miles ahead of us in terms of finances and recruitment.  Despite that, with the exception of Hibs on the opening day, there hasn't been a great deal between us and them.  

We really need to wait until after the opening round of fixtures to ask this question. 

[Yorkyred]

4 minutes ago, CoF said:

I can see a wee bit of that hysteria creeping in among the fans, but I do think it's completely devoid of perspective at this stage. 

Since August we've played 8 games.

3 of them we'd have hoped to have won (Dundee, Accies, Livi) - we've won 2. 

The other 5 were against Rangers, Hearts, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen. We've lost 4 and drawn 1 however, it's not 2012 anymore - the city clubs have got their shit together and are miles ahead of us in terms of finances and recruitment.  Despite that, with the exception of Hibs on the opening day, there hasn't been a great deal between us and them.  

We really need to wait until after the opening round of fixtures to ask this question. 

Spot on of course 

[mfc88]

I agree with a lot of the above comments. It was a difficult start to the season and barring the accies game, none have gone dramatically against expectations. Another point or so would have done a lot for confidence though. We've no right to be beating hearts at tynecastle, let alone a hearts team who've started the season on fire. Main concern is we seem to be gifting a goal a game at the moment. My feeling is the sooner Dunne is fit the better as it will give our back line some much needed pace again.

Recruitment in the summer was baffling tbh. I've lost count of the number of centre mids we've now got on our books. Johnson potentially looks a neat addition, and i understand Carson was expected to leave hence the move for Gillespie, but the rest, other than maybe aldred, I just don't understand. None of them are poor players necessarily, but are any of them starters? And after selling kipre I'd argue we've a weaker first eleven, despite signing about 8 players in the summer!!!

[Yodo]

On 9/27/2018 at 8:01 PM, CoF said:

I can see a wee bit of that hysteria creeping in among the fans, but I do think it's completely devoid of perspective at this stage. 

Since August we've played 8 games.

3 of them we'd have hoped to have won (Dundee, Accies, Livi) - we've won 2. 

The other 5 were against Rangers, Hearts, Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen. We've lost 4 and drawn 1 however, it's not 2012 anymore - the city clubs have got their shit together and are miles ahead of us in terms of finances and recruitment.  Despite that, with the exception of Hibs on the opening day, there hasn't been a great deal between us and them.  

We really need to wait until after the opening round of fixtures to ask this question. 

Distinct lack of ambition makes Robinson the right manager for you 

[CoF]

2 hours ago, Yodo said:

Distinct lack of ambition makes Robinson the right manager for you 

Ambition is one thing, reality is another.

Anyone  demand better players and a better style of football, however some people need to step back and take a wider and longer term view of the club. Really think about where we are as a club just now - we've made some decent money in recent seasons however the majority of that isn't going into the playing budget. 

[mfc88]

1 hour ago, CoF said:

however the majority of that isn't going into the playing budget. 

That's the thing for me and i think many others - how the budget is being spent. No one is suggesting compromise the budget.

Our squad wasn't exactly thin at the end of last season ( at least compared  to recent years, e.g. under McCall). So spending the same amount in total on 3 or 4 quality starters, instead of 7 or 8 bench warmers is surely how you build on last season's success.

Selling our best defender and signing a bench worth of players isn't the way forward IMO.

[Ya Bezzer!]

7 hours ago, mfc88 said:

That's the thing for me and i think many others - how the budget is being spent. No one is suggesting compromise the budget.

Our squad wasn't exactly thin at the end of last season ( at least compared  to recent years, e.g. under McCall). So spending the same amount in total on 3 or 4 quality starters, instead of 7 or 8 bench warmers is surely how you build on last season's success.

Selling our best defender and signing a bench worth of players isn't the way forward IMO.

Pretty much.

If you want to improve a squad you sign players that will displace guaranteed first team starters the previous season.  What we've done is replace second string dross with second string dross.

Since our actual first team is actually weaker than at the start of last season that policy seems even more bizarre.

We have something like 30 first team squad players (if you included Maguire, Turnbull, Scott etc) and you'd be lucky if you could find 10 that are either good enough or tested at this level.

As a result there is no competition in the squad, something only compounded by the managers aversion to promoting U20s players into the first team.

Robinson has painted himself into a corner with his loyalty to a side that, cup runs aside, was pretty poor in the first place and is poorer now.

We brought in Donnelly, Grimshaw and Taylor-Sinclair from the fringes today.  You'd think these guys would want to impress during a rare start but alas they did absolutely nothing.

[The African]

I reckon we have enough players of SPL standard - Carson, Tait, Aldred, Hartley, Dunne, Campbell, Cadden, McHugh are all capable and the likes of Rose, Bowman, Main, Tanner and Bigi have shown in the past that they can also contribute. The problem is that the mix is not right. If we do change manager, this will remain an issue for this season at least.

[Kmcalpin]

7 hours ago, The African said:

I reckon we have enough players of SPL standard - Carson, Tait, Aldred, Hartley, Dunne, Campbell, Cadden, McHugh are all capable and the likes of Rose, Bowman, Main, Tanner and Bigi have shown in the past that they can also contribute. The problem is that the mix is not right. If we do change manager, this will remain an issue for this season at least.

A lot of truth in this but we are missing pace and creativity in the side. 

I've now had second thoughts about Bigi.  I don't think he's good enough to play consistently.  Against the better sides he's just not performed and the defensive side of his game is very weak.   In order to play him we have to pick the other midfielers to compensate for him and I don't think he's good enough to justify that.  As far as the defence goes, yes they are all too similar and we have missed Kipre's physicality, positional sense and pace badly.

[The African]

We certainly lack pace at the back, and this is compounded by the way our midfield stands off the opposition and let's them play into the space that our defence cannot cover. I am worried that the return of Dunne is seen as a " cure all" for our defensive frailties. He will need time to rediscover his form.

[CoF]

22 hours ago, mfc88 said:

That's the thing for me and i think many others - how the budget is being spent. No one is suggesting compromise the budget.

Our squad wasn't exactly thin at the end of last season ( at least compared  to recent years, e.g. under McCall). So spending the same amount in total on 3 or 4 quality starters, instead of 7 or 8 bench warmers is surely how you build on last season's success.

Selling our best defender and signing a bench worth of players isn't the way forward IMO.

I'm not so sure about your comparison with the McCall era. We have about 24 players on or around the first team squad just now. Looking at the 2012/13 squad it's about 22.

Also, I'm not sure the new signings were intended to be bench warmers. On paper, they made some sense. -  I'll quote Welldaft_MK1 from another thread:

"Donnelly for example - recently broke record for N Ireland under 21 caps. Danny - scoring goals for fun in Conference which is where we got Moult from. ATS - I thought he was a great player when he was last in Scotland. Sammon - 9 full caps for Republic of Ireland and scored 10 goals for a relegated team last season. "

Sammon is the one player which seems to epitomise folks idea of the poor summer signings, however we may only paying a fraction of his wage given he is on loan. A couple of contract extentions might be questionable - Grimshaw off the top of my head, however I'm sure every club has those.

I honestly don't think the summer signings can be judged too harshly when it is clear Robinson isn't getting the best out of the core group of players we had last season. The new signings have enough potential on paper to fir into a well performing team. The problem is they're coming into a team that isn't functioning as we know it can. 

In the other thread, Ya Bezzer raised some good points about why we are no longer performing (basically teams have sussed us out). I'm remaining hopeful that it's not the case however got to admit, yesterday didn't fill me with confidence. 

[Clackscat]

We certainly lack pace at the back, and this is compounded by the way our midfield stands off the opposition and let's them play into the space that our defence cannot cover. I am worried that the return of Dunne is seen as a " cure all" for our defensive frailties. He will need time to rediscover his form.

Indeed he has been as big a miss as Kipre, although the other issue for me is lack of defensive midfield cover, especially in the absence of the much maligned Rose in the last 2 games. Perfect storm losing these 2 from a back 3 at same time.

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[mfc88]

1 hour ago, CoF said:

I'm not so sure about your comparison with the McCall era. We have about 24 players on or around the first team squad just now. Looking at the 2012/13 squad it's about 22.

Also, I'm not sure the new signings were intended to be bench warmers. On paper, they made some sense. -  I'll quote Welldaft_MK1 from another thread:

"Donnelly for example - recently broke record for N Ireland under 21 caps. Danny - scoring goals for fun in Conference which is where we got Moult from. ATS - I thought he was a great player when he was last in Scotland. Sammon - 9 full caps for Republic of Ireland and scored 10 goals for a relegated team last season. "

Sammon is the one player which seems to epitomise folks idea of the poor summer signings, however we may only paying a fraction of his wage given he is on loan. A couple of contract extentions might be questionable - Grimshaw off the top of my head, however I'm sure every club has those.

I honestly don't think the summer signings can be judged too harshly when it is clear Robinson isn't getting the best out of the core group of players we had last season. The new signings have enough potential on paper to fir into a well performing team. The problem is they're coming into a team that isn't functioning as we know it can. 

In the other thread, Ya Bezzer raised some good points about why we are no longer performing (basically teams have sussed us out). I'm remaining hopeful that it's not the case however got to admit, yesterday didn't fill me with confidence. 

Yeah i read that post from ya bezzer and thought it was a good one.

I take your points re signings. I guess regardless of whether they were in fact signed as starters or not, the general quality could have been higher had we been a bit more sensible about numbers. Would a greg stewart have been a possibility for example? Someone tried and tested at this level who can offer something different, and could really make a difference. Similarly, as you mention, some contract extensions: I'll see your grimshaw and raise you Newell, who is miles from the first team now after the summer additions!

I am far from the "Robinson out" camp just yet, but do feel he's made some serious errors here. I hope I'm wrong. The next few games are critical.

[milo]

Livingston beating rangers 1-0 at ht! Only ht of course, but anyone expecting us to get our season back on track next weekend should readjust their expectations.

[Welldaft Mk1]

42 minutes ago, milo said:

Livingston beating rangers 1-0 at ht! Only ht of course, but anyone expecting us to get our season back on track next weekend should readjust their expectations.

I am clinging to the hope that we actually played quite well v Rangers at home. Mind we did not beat them (still 10 mins to go). They fight tooth and nail and are v strong defensively. I can see this being just as tough as games v Hearts and Killie. If they go ahead it could be a LONG match. 

 

 

[Electric Blues]

47 minutes ago, milo said:

Livingston beating rangers 1-0 at ht! Only ht of course, but anyone expecting us to get our season back on track next weekend should readjust their expectations.

I've never been to Livingston's ground (I can't bring myself to type the abomination of its official name) but looking at it on the TV it appears that they've given three full stands over to Rangers. I can't see a single Livingston fan anywhere, although presumably they're in the fourth stand I can't see  on the telly. 

[Well 4 Europe]

That’s cause they struggle to get a 1000 of their own fans through the gate most weeks. 

Yet they’ve beaten Rangers today, beaten Hibs, taken a point off Killie and are the only ones to take a point off Hearts so far as well.

They also had to play at Celtic Park on the opening day but despite playing 5 of last seasons top 6 in their opening 7 games, they’re 10 points ahead of us already. Yet some folk want to use our ‘tough’ run of fixtures as an excuse for our piss poor start to the season.

[siebsbarmyarmy]

36 minutes ago, Well 4 Europe said:

That’s cause they struggle to get a 1000 of their own fans through the gate most weeks. 

Yet they’ve beaten Rangers today, beaten Hibs, taken a point off Killie and are the only ones to take a point off Hearts so far as well.

They also had to play at Celtic Park on the opening day but despite playing 5 of last seasons top 6 in their opening 7 games, they’re 10 points ahead of us already. Yet some folk want to use our ‘tough’ run of fixtures as an excuse for our piss poor start to the season.

Agreed 100%. 

Also take into consideration they have changed their manager (twice). 

Dont hear moans about fixtures or budgets and have ten more points than we do after 7 games. Puts into perspective the pish we have had to listen too and put up with. 

[Yorkyred]

38 minutes ago, Well 4 Europe said:

That’s cause they struggle to get a 1000 of their own fans through the gate most weeks. 

Yet they’ve beaten Rangers today, beaten Hibs, taken a point off Killie and are the only ones to take a point off Hearts so far as well.

They also had to play at Celtic Park on the opening day but despite playing 5 of last seasons top 6 in their opening 7 games, they’re 10 points ahead of us already. Yet some folk want to use our ‘tough’ run of fixtures as an excuse for our piss poor start to the season.

It’s hardly  an excuse, if you have a run of games against the strongest teams in the league you can expect in general to pick up less points than a run of games against bottom six level teams. Picking out exceptions does not change the overall truth of that.

[Yodo]

43 minutes ago, siebsbarmyarmy said:

Agreed 100%. 

Also take into consideration they have changed their manager (twice). 

Dont hear moans about fixtures or budgets and have ten more points than we do after 7 games. Puts into perspective the pish we have had to listen too and put up with. 

Great point ,next week game just got harder to win