Scottish Youth Cup Winning Team April 2016

[Winning by Name]

I thought it would be interesting to note how many of the Youth Cup winning team who slaughtered Hearts in the final  (it was only 18 months ago) are still at Fir Park:

LONG                No

WATT                No

MCMILLAN    No

FERGUSON    No

HALL                    No

CAMPBELL      First Team Squad

MCLEAN           Reserve Squad (On Loan)

TURNBULL      Reserve Squad

MACKIN            No

THOMAS           No

CADDEN            First Team Squad

Subs:

MORRISON      Reserve Squad (On Loan)

LIVINGSTON   Reserve Squad

It is interesting that only two are in the first team squad although Turnbull (and I hope Livingston) are now threatening to join that squad.

I don't believe this is a good return for what was clearly an excellent squad only a very short time ago and I would really question the ethos of our management as regards youth development. What do others think?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rinkydink]

I think you'd need to add a column to highlight the "where are they now" factor for it to be worthwhile starting point.  

[ONeils4oyarder]

The fact that none of the ones who have left are setting the heather on fire elsewhere tells you everything you need to know

[Neilwell86]

You are saying this doesn't reflect well on the managment team, Ben Hall got a move down south for starters. Other than the ones who have broken through/on the brink of breaking through (Turnbull and Livingston) do you realistically think we have missed a trick with the rest? i doubt any of them would have made an impact on our squad now, we have a new crop of players in the youth who are making strides towards the first team, Liam brown, Jake Hastie, James Scott, Barry Maguire, all made appearances now in the first team. majority of the squad are now playing in the lower leagues of scottish football so I wouldn't be loosing to much sleep over 'the ones that got away'

[weeyin]

1 hour ago, ONeils4oyarder said:

The fact that none of the ones who have left are setting the heather on fire elsewhere tells you everything you need to know

Exactly.

And to be fair, it's pretty standard for most clubs. The number of youngsters who play well in the youth teams but fail to make the grade at senior level s very high. 

For example, we have the team captain from Manchester Utd's academy sitting on the bench most weeks.

[Busta Nut]

I dunno if it is the same among other fans but our fans make some scene regarding our youth team.

[steelboy]

The fact that every player there still has a pro contract is a great outcome for a youth team.

Long is starting for East Fife. Watt was reported to have signed for a team in Croatia. Ferguson is at Ayr but not playing. Hall is on loan at Notts County from Brighton. Mackin is at Falkirk. Dom Thomas is on loan at Dumbarton from Killie.

I doubt if you were to look at the Hearts, Rangers or Celtic teams from the same competition they would be doing as well.

 

[Winning by Name]

I agree with this completely.

My original point, which clearly I have not made my point very well, is that we have grown this very good young squad and have not given them much chance in the first team due to external buys from elsewhere. That is where I think the management have not done very well in looking at the long term.

[MelvinBragg]

Was Robbie Leitch not also involved? I heard he's, like Luke Watt, in Croatia. Via Burnley and Paisley. A weird world tour...

[Winning by Name]

Yes he was, as was Hastie (who is in the reserve squad)

[Wellfan1984]

5 hours ago, steelboy said:

Mackin is at Falkirk.

 

 

Punted at the start of the month.  

[mwellhighland]

Not to shit on your post or anything, but it was 30 months ago and not 18

[Gadgey]

On 10/23/2018 at 3:15 PM, Winning by Name said:

I agree with this completely.

My original point, which clearly I have not made my point very well, is that we have grown this very good young squad and have not given them much chance in the first team due to external buys from elsewhere. That is where I think the management have not done very well in looking at the long term.

To be honest mate, I think you’re looking to make a point that just isn’t there to be made.

Let’s take your criticism and run with it. You say that management have failed in looking to the long term by failing to give this very good young squad much of a chance in the first team due to external buys from elsewhere.

How many ‘Well youth academy players in say the past 10 years (?) who were stifled by 1st team recruitment and selection and have then gone on to prove that the club were wrong?

My memory isn’t the best but I honestly can’t think of one.

[grumpy]

Steven Lawleff?

[WishyWell]

1 hour ago, Gadgey said:

How many ‘Well youth academy players in say the past 10 years (?) who were stifled by 1st team recruitment and selection and have then gone on to prove that the club were wrong?

Taking this point in isolation, we see it asked a lot but I don’t think it is as simple as just that. There are various factors working against young boys who get to a full-time level but don’t quite make it at that particular club.

The reason they may not break into the first team may not be due to a lack of talent, but can just as easily be due to having too many people, or even just one established player, in their position, or a preferred formation not suiting their style, or even just that particular manager’s preference in type of player.

As far as those who are dropped are concerned, one aspect that then comes into play is that they then seem to be seen as having failed by other clubs, so are seldom picked up by another club of a similar level, so they have to drop down the leagues. 

Then there is the age factor - once they reach about 20, then any potential club is looking to take them on as a first team squad player... and if they haven’t played much, or at all, for a first team, then another club won’t consider them because they don’t have examples of how they play at that level to base it on.

So the young players go on loan to get first team experience, but it will only be to a lower league club but, if they do so and then don’t make it once they are back at the parent club, then only lower league clubs will take them on.

So once released from a Premiership club, a young player can generally only go down the leagues. And, unfortunately, the old idea that sometimes you have to drop down to come up seems, if not gone altogether, at least a very rare occurrence, apart from the one or two cases that get a lot of attention. For the majority of players, no matter how well they do at that level, they appear to then be considered “lower league players” or journeymen, and end up doing well, maybe moving around a few clubs, but never having anyone from a Premiership club taking a chance on them. It is easier to bring an older player up from England or elsewhere, too often. 

If course, there are exceptions, but for most young players it is a brutal world they enter and it is a tough time for them, even for those who do make it. To class all of those who are dropped as “just not good enough” only on the basis of them never rising up again is a bit harsh. 

Of course, there is also the aspect of how we select and develop young players from an early age (and I am talking across Scottish football in general here), but don’t start me on that or we’ll be here all day...

[Gadgey]

3 hours ago, grumpy said:

Steven Lawleff?

Yes....I should’ve remembered him 

[Gadgey]

23 minutes ago, WishyWell said:

Taking this point in isolation, we see it asked a lot but I don’t think it is as simple as just that. There are various factors working against young boys who get to a full-time level but don’t quite make it at that particular club.

The reason they may not break into the first team may not be due to a lack of talent, but can just as easily be due to having too many people, or even just one established player, in their position, or a preferred formation not suiting their style, or even just that particular manager’s preference in type of player.

As far as those who are dropped are concerned, one aspect that then comes into play is that they then seem to be seen as having failed by other clubs, so are seldom picked up by another club of a similar level, so they have to drop down the leagues. 

Then there is the age factor - once they reach about 20, then any potential club is looking to take them on as a first team squad player... and if they haven’t played much, or at all, for a first team, then another club won’t consider them because they don’t have examples of how they play at that level to base it on.

So the young players go on loan to get first team experience, but it will only be to a lower league club but, if they do so and then don’t make it once they are back at the parent club, then only lower league clubs will take them on.

So once released from a Premiership club, a young player can generally only go down the leagues. And, unfortunately, the old idea that sometimes you have to drop down to come up seems, if not gone altogether, at least a very rare occurrence, apart from the one or two cases that get a lot of attention. For the majority of players, no matter how well they do at that level, they appear to then be considered “lower league players” or journeymen, and end up doing well, maybe moving around a few clubs, but never having anyone from a Premiership club taking a chance on them. It is easier to bring an older player up from England or elsewhere, too often. 

If course, there are exceptions, but for most young players it is a brutal world they enter and it is a tough time for them, even for those who do make it. To class all of those who are dropped as “just not good enough” only on the basis of them never rising up again is a bit harsh. 

Of course, there is also the aspect of how we select and develop young players from an early age (and I am talking across Scottish football in general here), but don’t start me on that or we’ll be here all day...

A really thought provoking post. Surely what you describe is a cultural problem for all of Scottish football and not in isolation to MFC?

[WishyWell]

37 minutes ago, Gadgey said:

A really thought provoking post. Surely what you describe is a cultural problem for all of Scottish football and not in isolation to MFC?

Absolutely. The criteria we use to select young players (in the first place to sign them, then to play or not play each game in academy teams, and whether or not to stay with the club every six months), the way we develop them at all ages and the way we consider and regard them them on reaching the cusp of first teams is so wrong across this country as a whole. It is the single main problem that we have in causing the failure of our senior teams right up to international level, because our coaches and scouts either don’t have the knowledge or desire to look at what we can make of what we have, but instead stick to identikit ideas of what a good player is and try to fill their squads with them. Motherwell is not the worst club for this, but is still stuck in a football culture that is not working, and is stuck in the past when the world has changed. 

[Gadgey]

I don’t have the skills for a nodding head emoji but would do one if I could. So, the million dollar question, what is the solution?

Are you involved in the ‘industry’ WishyWell or have been close to it?

I can familiarise with some of what you have said in that when I was a boy, I spent 3 years with Motherwell boys club and was let go at the age of 14. Each year, we would have trials to be re-signed to our Y or S forms and tellingly, there was nobody from my group at the time who progressed to becoming a professional player. 

Fast forward many years and my son began playing at a much younger age than I ever started at. He’s 7 now, has been playing since he was 3, plays for his club team (which I coach) and also for an academy side. We live in Kent and he regularly plays against top professional academy sides or in talent spotting tournaments ran by the professional club academies. By contrast, I didn’t have access to play football until I was playing U9s. The level of talent, footballing mentality and tactical nouse that I’ve witnessed from kids so young has been a real eye opener and light years ahead of anything that I was “coached” as a kid.

I’m a FA level 2 qualified coach and the England DNA seems to me as a very positive step in the right direction. Does the SFA have something similar?

[weeyin]

The question is, do the English teams have a higher percentage of players coming through the youth ranks into the first team? 

From what I have seen across the leagues, the answer to that is no.

[WishyWell]

47 minutes ago, Gadgey said:

I don’t have the skills for a nodding head emoji but would do one if I could. So, the million dollar question, what is the solution?

Are you involved in the ‘industry’ WishyWell or have been close to it?

I can familiarise with some of what you have said in that when I was a boy, I spent 3 years with Motherwell boys club and was let go at the age of 14. Each year, we would have trials to be re-signed to our Y or S forms and tellingly, there was nobody from my group at the time who progressed to becoming a professional player. 

Fast forward many years and my son began playing at a much younger age than I ever started at. He’s 7 now, has been playing since he was 3, plays for his club team (which I coach) and also for an academy side. We live in Kent and he regularly plays against top professional academy sides or in talent spotting tournaments ran by the professional club academies. By contrast, I didn’t have access to play football until I was playing U9s. The level of talent, footballing mentality and tactical nouse that I’ve witnessed from kids so young has been a real eye opener and light years ahead of anything that I was “coached” as a kid.

I’m a FA level 2 qualified coach and the England DNA seems to me as a very positive step in the right direction. Does the SFA have something similar?

I’m not a coach or a former pro player, so can’t offer a view from those perspectives. I am, however, the dad of a boy who has seen his son start playing boys club football at the age of 5, train with three senior clubs from 8 and sign Pro-Youth at 10 and go through the whole process at all age-groups, so have seen at first hand the criteria and philosophies adopted by different clubs along the way. I have also, through that, developed great friendships with the coaches and the dads of boys who have been dropped at all ages who are now playing with clubs in lower leagues or Junior teams, or are still at Motherwell, and have seen their experiences, good and bad. And all of this has shown that if you want to make it as a footballer you not only have to have talent and luck, you also have to have great mental strength, because without exception you’ll have at least as many bad experiences as good, and I take my hat off to anyone who makes a career in football for that reason as much as any other. And as a parent it also gives you pretty strong views on how young players are brought through in Scotland in general - a general situation that affects and confines clubs as well as players. 

[weeyin]

It's an interesting argument. There is a school of thought that says kids shouldn't be anywhere near organised football at the age of 5 and, in fact, should be playing (with the emphasis on "play') as many different sports and games as they can - as long as they enjoy them.

I think it was the Dutch clubs that used to avoid competitive football matches for their kids until they were about 12 or 13, although I have no idea if that's still the case.

There are so many variables, it must be difficult to quantify the most successful approach. Not just from the luck talent and mental strength you mention but also just the rate of development. Some kids that look world beaters at 14 that fade away and others that don't flourish until years later.

I'll be honest and say that the young players I have seen at Fir Park that have come through the English system haven't looked any better than our home grown talent (guys like Zane Francis-Angol, Zac Jules spring to mind), but of course that is a pretty small sample to judge. Even now we have the Man U Academy Captain being kept out of our team by players like Cadden and Campbell.

Having said all that, there is no doubt our system needs an overhaul from top to bottom. I just don't know if the English model is the one we should follow when the French and, more recently, the Belgians have shown the way forward.

[Gadgey]

2 hours ago, weeyin said:

The question is, do the English teams have a higher percentage of players coming through the youth ranks into the first team? 

From what I have seen across the leagues, the answer to that is no.

It’s not a definitive no. It varies considerably depending upon level of investment and your measure of success. Some clubs have a great success rate but as WishyWell has indicated, it is a cut throat business and players are often the victim of it.

It is important to emphasise that a large proportion of the EFL Championship roster and almost all players in League 1 down are primarily English born.

My English team Charlton for example have a conveyor belt of young talent. Their Academy is partially fan funded and has 6 players and the manager of the current first team squad on its graduation list. It’s given the greedy bastard owner his greatest income through the sale of the likes of Ademola Lookman and Ezri Konsa.

They do however have far more failures to succeed than successes.

On a wider scale, the growth of the independent Academies are providing an interesting and unprecedented dynamic. The draw of the privately run academy is the opportunity of playing the big clubs and their measure of success is how many they can get picked up by professional clubs.

This takes much of the recruiting burden from many of the pro clubs. A new cycle is in place. Parental desire for their son to be the next Messi and pay for their early retirement makes them willing to pay large monthly sums for their kid to get extra training and opportunity to get spotted at showcase events. These showcase events allow the Academies to act as types of agents and the clubs don’t have to do much more than host an event.

My boy was picked up by Charlton at one of their Community Trust half term grass roots activities. This is heavily funded by fan base membership subscriptions and “holiday club” parental fees. The community trust works wonders for the club PR and allows opportunity for talent spotting. 3 of the team I coach (one of which a girl) now train weekly at Charlton because of it. Many smaller English clubs do or outsource something similar.

The England DNA at least in theory seeks to address some of what WishyWell describes and focusses not only on the development of a players physical and technical/tactical skills but also puts a young players social and psychological capabilities as a priority. It has been in place for 4 years now and their youth international success is an early indicator that it is working.

In many respects, it’s Southgate’s commitment to this that has got him to where he is. I guess time will tell.

I have seen none of what “project brave” aims to achieve or the principles behind it.

[WishyWell]

I would like to reiterate that I was talking generally about youth development in Scottish football and not about our club. I have seen us include many comparatively smaller, more skilful boys at young age groups who have been run over the top of by boys twice their size. Some clubs, us included, have tried to give a mix of types of players a chance, but others have clearly gone for big boys from an early age to achieve results or perhaps in the hope that it increases their odds of accidentally stumbling across the boy who is big for his age but who can also play (eg James McCarthy). The result is that clubs like ours are steamrollered at many of the young age groups and at the clubs putting out big teams, and the bigger boys are learning little except how to be bigger than the opposition (eg I saw us lose 7-1 once to a team at u12s or 13s who scored 6 of those from identical corners). The result is that development is stifled by too many clubs who put results ahead of learning or ahead of choosing “players” - they not only harm themselves, but also the clubs, like ours, who try to encourage good footballers and teach a decent passing game. 

For a number of reasons, I pick my posts on this Forum carefully and I try to pick my words carefully when I do post, so I just wanted to make it clear what I was getting at. 

[Ya Bezzer!]

On 10/23/2018 at 1:12 PM, weeyin said:

Exactly.

And to be fair, it's pretty standard for most clubs. The number of youngsters who play well in the youth teams but fail to make the grade at senior level s very high. 

For example, we have the team captain from Manchester Utd's academy sitting on the bench most weeks.

But it's a complete misnomer to say that because a player didn't make after being misdeveloped and released during the most crucial period of their careers that they wouldn't have made it if they had been given better exposure to first team football.    We have had good players leave this club aged 21 or 22 with less than half a dozen first team starts.

The way our youth development links up with the first team stinks and the way most youth development systems link up with first teams stinks right across the country.

Out of 22 players we've used in league matches this season only 6 of them are Scottish and only 3 of them were developed by the club. 

Dundee have used 24 players, only 7 of them are Scottish and only 3 of them were developed by the club.

The pattern is repeated across the rest of the league.  St. Mirren 24 players, 13 Scots.  Hamilton 26 players, 10 Scots. 

The Hearts v Celtic league cup semi final had 6 Scots in the starting 22 players.  If you include the Aberdeen v Rangers semi final it was 15 players out of 44.

The league is filled with imported dross while youth players get released left, right and centre.  Youth development in this country is atrocious and it's the single biggest reason for the catastrophic decline of quality in the league and our European and International failures.

Things HAVE to change.