2018’19 Game 12: Rangers (A) Sunday 11th November 2018

[Richie]

1 hour ago, Spiderpig said:

2nd point the pen was  probably justified but  could Thompson be 100% sure watching it real time and was it a booking as well , I think not.

IMO in any instance of handball the ref should produce (at least) a yellow.

For a foul it apparently needs to be deliberate, if it's deliberate it should be a yellow.

It's not logical to give a handball and not book the player, given the rules.

[Spiderpig]

35 minutes ago, Richie said:

IMO in any instance of handball the ref should produce (at least) a yellow.

For a foul it apparently needs to be deliberate, if it's deliberate it should be a yellow.

It's not logical to give a handball and not book the player, given the rules.

Deliberate...as per the rules that's the issue for me, did McHugh make a deliberate attempt to catch/handle the ball, did he feck, he was trying to block the shot, so imo it's ball to hand.  But that said his arms were well away from the body so not in a natural position. 

So no deliberate handball, no pen, no 2nd booking, no sending off and possibly a different result at the end. But thanks to Thompson applying the green and blue version of the rules of football, we ended up with a ruined game.

This week Rangers allegedly made a complaint about Willie Collum  over the Candiaes nonsense, but how many times has Motherwell suffered due to Thompson making a James Hunt of it, St Johnstone game in Perth, League cup Final, and now Ibrox ,but nothing said by the club.

It's time somebody at First park grew a set and made an official complaint, get it in the press as well, if Brenda and Stevie G can do it the other clubs need to as well.

[ONeils4oyarder]

13 minutes ago, Spiderpig said:

Deliberate...as per the rules that's the issue for me, did McHugh make a deliberate attempt to catch/handle the ball, did he feck, he was trying to block the shot, so imo it's ball to hand.  But that said his arms were well away from the body so not in a natural position. 

So no deliberate handball, no pen, no 2nd booking, no sending off and possibly a different result at the end. But thanks to Thompson applying the green and blue version of the rules of football, we ended up with a ruined game.

This week Rangers allegedly made a complaint about Willie Collum  over the Candiaes nonsense, but how many times has Motherwell suffered due to Thompson making a James Hunt of it, St Johnstone game in Perth, League cup Final, and now Ibrox ,but nothing said by the club.

It's time somebody at First park grew a set and made an official complaint, get it in the press as well, if Brenda and Stevie G can do it the other clubs need to as well.

Of course his right arm was in a natural position...try a slide tackle out your back garden with your hands in your pockets.

 

McHugh is getting slaughtered for his part in proceedings yesterday, but in my opinion he was extremely unlucky to get a 2nd booking for that

[Guest]

11 hours ago, ropy said:

Side issue but has Thomson managed to send anyone off since the last Motherwell player, or is he keeping his run going?

He managed to send off Michael Devlin for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity 30 yards from goal, and Shay Logan for celebrating, so I guess Aberdeen can have similar gripes... 

All in all, the players chucking it is a bad, bad look. Unsure if the international break is a good thing or a bad thing, in that respect.

Appreciate Robinson is furious at the players for chucking it, but he's got shoulder some of the blame here as well. Dunno if it was on here or P&B, but I'd mentioned in the build-up that the 4-4-2 with a narrow midfield is mental against Rangers, as they've got the most attacking full-back in the league...and then we concede two goals because you're asking Bigi to be inside for passes and structure, but also outside to try and stop the full-back. Tavernier had about ten yards around him to play the ball in for the first goal because Bigi can't get out to him, and while the penalty (argue away whether it was or wasn't all you like) came again from an over-load on our left hand side. 

After that, the whole thing went to shit anyway, but setting up in the way we did was wrong, and exposes (again) our complete inflexibility on the tactical side of the game. That isn't on Bigi who was doing his best to cover the space, or on Tait who was attempting to cover space and two men, it's on the management team for not preparing for one of the most well-known threats in the league. Mental.

Dunno if this means we'll be back at the 3-5-2 for Aberdeen, or whether we stick with the diamond and do it better against another pair of attacking full-backs in Lowe and Logan and all out wide-men in GMS and McGinn, or if we have a different plan. Either way, attempting to deal with similar threats in the same way as we did yesterday will cost us.

[Spiderpig]

9 minutes ago, ONeils4oyarder said:

Of course his right arm was in a natural position...try a slide tackle out your back garden with your hands in your pockets.

 

McHugh is getting slaughtered for his part in proceedings yesterday, but in my opinion he was extremely unlucky to get a 2nd booking for that

I totally agree with you re McHugh he was trying to block the shot,  I mentioned the arm position to try to justify the pen award and 2nd yellow but they fall down on every criteria, apart from 1, ie the ref in my opinion is an incompetent cheating prick.

[Ya Bezzer!]

2 hours ago, milo said:

Spot on. Completely agree.

Got a bit of sympathy for McHugh actually. The sending off doesn’t justify the collapse however. Where are the leaders in our team? Nobody got any professional pride?

Leadership?  We needed a 19 year old to come in and run the game for us against two of the worst sides in top league history.

 

 

[milo]

19 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Leadership?  We needed a 19 year old to come in and run the game for us against two of the worst sides in top league history.

 

 

That’s my point. There’s none. Carson, Hartley, Tait, Aldred, Main, Cadden et al all talk a good game but will be now forever linked to one of the most embarrassing humblings in recent years.

Still, “we go again”, eh?

[Ya Bezzer!]

Watching Sportscene.

Wish me luck.

[wellowell]

Have watched that sending off back numerous times and actually think Thompson was sending  McHugh away before Morelos got involved and asked for him to be sent off then cards out instantly,  and the reaction from Morelos was shocking what a way to act he really is a disgrace of a human being  and how he never got booked fir constantly clapping in McHugh,s face is another joke of a decision . No bearing on game as damage had been done but why we never got a pen with blatant kick at Rose when about to tap in so should have been red card as well is just unbelievable . We have no excuses for downing tools and being pumped but don’t anybody try and tell me Thompson makes honest mistakes where we are concerned he is always out to get us and will never be convinced otherwise . 

[prideoflanarkshire]

1 hour ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Watching Sportscene.

Wish me luck.

I would rather put pins in my eyes than watch that again...

[mfc]

It's clear that thomson has an agenda against us,the amount of games he has ruined for us isn't a coincidence,everytime he is due to take one of our games,you just know that before a ball is kicked he is going too produce the red card and give a penalty against us.i expect us too be fighting relegation,so we could be in for some big games towards the end of the season and the fear is he will be involved and fuck us over yet again and potentially cost us dear.yesterday should have been the final straw,a formal complaint against this prick should be on its way too his employers from the club.

[prideoflanarkshire]

Why was Richard Tait interviewed after the game? Where was our mouth piece of a captain?

[numpty]

Whatever genuine gripes we have with him, I honestly don't believe Thomson or any other referee in Scotland is going to show a card just because a player tells him to.  That's way beyond incompetence and into corruption territory.

[Yodo]

1 minute ago, prideoflanarkshire said:

Why was Richard Tait interviewed after the game? Where was our mouth piece of a captain?

Hiding I hope . Time to break up the Hartley / Aldred partnership i would keep one of them probably Aldred and bring in McGuire to play beside him and get Tait back to right back and bring in Livingston on the left .Got two weeks to work on a back four for the Aberdeen game let's hope it shows on the day 

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 minute ago, Yodo said:

Hiding I hope . Time to break up the Hartley / Aldred partnership i would keep one of them probably Aldred and bring in McGuire to play beside him and get Tait back to right back and bring in Livingston on the left .Got two weeks to work on a back four for the Aberdeen game let's hope it shows on the day 

As I said previously, now is a tough time to bring in the youngsters.

Not only do we have tough fixtures, the team and manager are under pressure and the fans are not happy.

We had three quarters of a season last term when relegation was at best unlikely and fans were onside due to the cup runs and he didn't give these guys game time.

We started the season playing League 2 teams and they still didn't get any game time.

These players should have been brought through last season.  Bringing them in now might improve us but you can't really expect more or less totally inexperienced kids to get us out a 3 wins in 13 sized hole.

Robinson has completely mismanaged the side.

[Yodo]

Agree with everything  you are saying Beezer but the rebuild has to start soon or we might just carry on with the same eleven that's been letting us down since the start of the season and for me that would be a disaster 

[Richie]

Just for clarity, I was just meaning in general, rather this particular incident, that if the ref deems it deliberate (by penalising it) a yellow should logically always follow.

There are of course instances where this doesn't happen, which suggests the ref either isn't convinced it's deliberate (in which case he shouldn’t penalise it) or is picking and choosing when to issue bookings, which is cheating/shitebaggery.

In the McHugh case, to me it looks ball to hand.

As has been stated, physics and biology prohibit you from having your hands by your side when slide-tackling.

[sinjy]

The inconsistency  in referees  really gets to me.  I remember the 2011 cup final the Celtic centre half (can't remember his name) was booked early in the  game and before half time a long ball from our defence was going over his head to Chris Humphrey and the centre half jumped up and caught it like a goalkeeper,  result no booking.  I remember being raging at that. 

From now on I will be watching carefully to see if a booking results every time a defender spreads himself and the shot is blocked by a hand or arm and a foul is given. 

There is no excuse for the complete capitulation after red card but I feel McHugh was harshly treated.

It's less than a year ago that Thomson wrongly sent Kipre off against Celtic and we played for an hour wth 10 men  and got a 0-0 draw. Sunday has shown how far we have gone backwards since then. 

[ONeils4oyarder]

3 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

He managed to send off Michael Devlin for denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity 30 yards from goal, and Shay Logan for celebrating, so I guess Aberdeen can have similar gripes... 

All in all, the players chucking it is a bad, bad look. Unsure if the international break is a good thing or a bad thing, in that respect.

Appreciate Robinson is furious at the players for chucking it, but he's got shoulder some of the blame here as well. Dunno if it was on here or P&B, but I'd mentioned in the build-up that the 4-4-2 with a narrow midfield is mental against Rangers, as they've got the most attacking full-back in the league...and then we concede two goals because you're asking Bigi to be inside for passes and structure, but also outside to try and stop the full-back. Tavernier had about ten yards around him to play the ball in for the first goal because Bigi can't get out to him, and while the penalty (argue away whether it was or wasn't all you like) came again from an over-load on our left hand side. 

After that, the whole thing went to shit anyway, but setting up in the way we did was wrong, and exposes (again) our complete inflexibility on the tactical side of the game. That isn't on Bigi who was doing his best to cover the space, or on Tait who was attempting to cover space and two men, it's on the management team for not preparing for one of the most well-known threats in the league. Mental.

Dunno if this means we'll be back at the 3-5-2 for Aberdeen, or whether we stick with the diamond and do it better against another pair of attacking full-backs in Lowe and Logan and all out wide-men in GMS and McGinn, or if we have a different plan. Either way, attempting to deal with similar threats in the same way as we did yesterday will cost us.

Thats what worried me about the 'get the 3-5 fuckin2, in the bin patter'...there is nothing fundamentally wrong when playing 3-5-2, just like there is nothing fundamentally wrong with playing a 4-4-2 without any width...the two things that need to be taken into consideration when setting up a team is, a) do I have the players that are capable of the formation I want to play and b) what are the opposition playing and where can they hurt us if we play this formation. 

 

If our manager had any tactical ability, he'd have packed our midfield and supported a loan striker from out wide yesterday.

[Lukemfc1]

Regardless of the red card I'm still absolutely fuming at the amount of goals we shipped yesterday.

Let's be honest, 10 men at Ibrox is very difficult but to lose 7 goals in any game is a complete joke. Had we lost 3/4 yesterday I would have chalked this one off but 7 is an absolute embarassment. To be clear here, Ranjurs are decent at going forward at the moment. Decent. Nothing special but we made them look like world beaters.

The ease at which some of they goals went in was unacceptable. Peter Hartley is kidding himself on this season. Since that injury he hasn't looked anywhere near the player he was. His mobility looks to be heavily restricted. Perhaps he should do less talking and more playing. I would drop him to the bench and bring Dunne in with Aldred in the 4 against Aberdeen. I know he has only really played left of a 3 but the Hartley/Aldred pairing clearly isn't 'solid' as some within the club have mentioned. It is very slow and laboured. Perhaps even the Mbulu boy merits a chance?

Overall I genuinely don't see where we are going to pick up results in the near future. We seem to be slightly better than Dundee and St Mirren but in a no man's land between there and the rest of the teams in the division apart from perhaps Accies. There seems to be a real gulf this year between us and the other 8 teams in the league.

The run up to Christmas is tough. We really need to make sure we bridge this gap and pick up points against the better teams in the league, as the 8 point cushion we have just now could deteriorate very quickly. Clearly games like yesterday are different from games against Livi and St Johnstone but I still expect us to compete better than we did.

[Ya Bezzer!]

39 minutes ago, Lukemfc1 said:

Regardless of the red card I'm still absolutely fuming at the amount of goals we shipped yesterday.

Let's be honest, 10 men at Ibrox is very difficult but to lose 7 goals in any game is a complete joke. Had we lost 3/4 yesterday I would have chalked this one off but 7 is an absolute embarassment. To be clear here, Ranjurs are decent at going forward at the moment. Decent. Nothing special but we made them look like world beaters.

The ease at which some of they goals went in was unacceptable. Peter Hartley is kidding himself on this season. Since that injury he hasn't looked anywhere near the player he was. His mobility looks to be heavily restricted. Perhaps he should do less talking and more playing. I would drop him to the bench and bring Dunne in with Aldred in the 4 against Aberdeen. I know he has only really played left of a 3 but the Hartley/Aldred pairing clearly isn't 'solid' as some within the club have mentioned. It is very slow and laboured. Perhaps even the Mbulu boy merits a chance?

For me 5 of the 6 goals from open play were avoidable by even competent defending.

Agree with Hartley.  He's slow as treacle and his positioning for the first goal was deplorable yesterday.  Clearly not even paying attention to the game when he's about 5 yards behind the rest of the defensive line. 

And that's one of the most infuriating things about this team.  Time and time again we can't even play in lines like a half decent school team.  Players just don't have any awareness of what's going on around them.  There is no excuse for it and the manager should be on top of that.  If players don't know where they are on the field and where their team mates are they shouldn't be playing.  It's the most basic element of the game. 

Perhaps if we ever master that we can move on to controlling a ball and then passing.

[MelvinBragg]

55 minutes ago, ONeils4oyarder said:

Thats what worried me about the 'get the 3-5 fuckin2, in the bin patter'...there is nothing fundamentally wrong when playing 3-5-2, just like there is nothing fundamentally wrong with playing a 4-4-2 without any width...the two things that need to be taken into consideration when setting up a team is, a) do I have the players that are capable of the formation I want to play and b) what are the opposition playing and where can they hurt us if we play this formation. 

I did say a couple of weeks ago that those who were saying that Robinson was too entrenched with 352 were equally set on the idea that the 352 was the root of the problem and changing to a back four would automatically improve things...

[Clackscat]

Picked the right weekend to go away, just back and watched 'highlights"

First off, no excuse for a 7 goal collapse, can't defend that and won't try.

McHugh's first yellow was an absolute joke, and only given because of the antics of that snivelling little runt Morelos.

Even the Sportscene 'experts' disagreed on the penalty, we would have wanted it, but it was not hand to ball, and there is no doubt that was the game right there. The joke first yellow then ensures a red.

Should have had a stonewall penalty for Tavernier on Rose, not that it would have made any difference but yet again highlights Thomsons ineptitude.

However maybe all that is a valid excuse for getting beat, but it is not a valid excuse for shipping 7, pretty simple goals.

I am disappointed though at the vitriol being hurled in McHugh and Robbo's direction. McHugh is a decent player and like all of us has shortcomings, but doesn't deserve the level of abuse being directed his way. Robbo has questions to answer, no doubt about it, but the barely disguised glee in the way some keyboard warriors across social media are creaming themselves with outrage is sad.

Make no mistake this is a pivotal moment for our club. Be careful what you wish for, as St Mirren, Dunfermline and Falkirk fans can testify. Turning on those in charge with cringeworthy post match fan demos will be the start of a bigger slide.

As a point of perspective St Johnstone got beat at home by the same 6 goal margin after a less than inspiring start to the season. No red cards or dodgy decisions. No panic there, and they win their next 5 without losing a goal. Given our forthcoming programme thats not likely for us, but it shows that it is possible to get back on track quickly.

Robbo is under pressure and deservedly so. Recruitment and tactics have been found wanting, and if he can't improve things then yes he will go. The question is how long can he be given to turn it round, and will mob mentality create a distracting circus that further affects the team.

Worrying times, cool heads needed, I personally hope the next 2 results are positive, but even if they were I fear now Robbo is only ever going to be 1 poor performance away from the sort of backlash we are now seeing.

Given the state of Dundee and St Mirren we will not be cut adrift, so I think he should be given to xmas, and if no improvement then change has to come in time for January window, trouble is some of our 'support' will be wishing just for that.

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk

[star sail]

2 hours ago, Clackscat said:

 

I am disappointed though at the vitriol being hurled in McHugh and Robbo's direction. McHugh is a decent player and like all of us has shortcomings, but doesn't deserve the level of abuse being directed his way. Robbo has questions to answer, no doubt about it, but the barely disguised glee in the way some keyboard warriors across social media are creaming themselves with outrage is sad.

Sent from my SM-A320FL using Tapatalk
 

Enjoyed reading your comments. Would agree with much of what you say.  I have quoted this part in particular because I have found the treatment of McHugh unacceptable.

This is a guy who got a concussion by putting his head where it hurts for the cause. He came back after a lengthy absence and did not change his style, still committing himself to challenges that could have resulted in further concussion (I think it maybe did once?). He is a heart on the sleeve player who gets it wrong from time to time but the margins between a great tackle and a foul can be slim. He plays on the edge and bookings can be the result.

McHugh treated his captaincy responsibilities very seriously last season and was an excellent captain. He has admitted that the pressures of the role were hugely demanding, I think in part because he took the role so seriously. I heard an interview with Craig Tanner where he mentioned that McHugh always made that extra effort to continue to include him as a member of the first team squad despite his injury. This is a character that should be applauded not villified.

Yesterday's red card is far from clear cut. The ONLY people I have heard argue that it was a certain red are Motherwell fans. Baffling!!!!

Seems to me that there may be something more at play here. I can't put my finger on what that might be but the treatment of McHugh has been very disappointing.

 

[ropy]

Don't think McHugh's fist challenge was a foul, so not happy with the yellow card, I think the second challenge being mentioned was simply the Rangers player (Morelos?) running into him, McHugh just stood his ground.  I don't really have an issue with the penalty, although that is my interpretation and not necessarily the current laws of the game, I don't have an issue with the yellow card although. I do have an issue with it only being issued because Morelos demanded it.

As rash as McHugh seems to be at times it perhaps is telling that it was when he was no longer there to protect the defence that we took a thumping.