Robinson... How Do We Think He's Doing ?

[Yodo]

5 minutes ago, mfc said:

There will be roasters in every stand,in every ground in the country,let's not make out that were somehow worse than everybody else.

Prefer to call them critics who don't necessarily believe the manager gets everything right .Got to ask if we are struggling for personnel where are the managers signings 12-18 which was supposed to strengthen our pool 

[superward]

7 minutes ago, Yodo said:

Prefer to call them critics who don't necessarily believe the manager gets everything right .Got to ask if we are struggling for personnel where are the managers signings 12-18 which was supposed to strengthen our 

Gillespie is  playing, Aldred is playing, Johnson is playing, Donnelly is injured, ATS is just back from injury, Gorrin is on the bench and featured recently Mbulu featured recently. 

Problem really is we have Carson, Cadden, Tanner, maybe Dunne, maybe Hartley all out and all who would be first choice. 

[Yodo]

9 minutes ago, superward said:

Gillespie is  playing, Aldred is playing, Johnson is playing, Donnelly is injured, ATS is just back from injury, Gorrin is on the bench and featured recently Mbulu featured recently. 

Problem really is we have Carson, Cadden, Tanner, maybe Dunne, maybe Hartley all out and all who would be first choice. 

You honestly think Samson, Donnelly ,ATS , Gorrin and Mbulu have strengthened us cmon behave yourself 

[superward]

28 minutes ago, Yodo said:

You honestly think Samson, Donnelly ,ATS , Gorrin and Mbulu have strengthened us cmon behave yourself 

No....

[weeyin]

39 minutes ago, Yodo said:

You honestly think Samson, Donnelly ,ATS , Gorrin and Mbulu have strengthened us cmon behave yourself 

I was at the Accies game last December. We played an injured Carson and an injured Hartley. Moult, Cadden and Frear were out injured and Campbell limped off early in the first half.  We had no decent replacements for any of them. (Our keeper on the bench was Xenodochof - and we all remember how great he was).

We are actually rotating the squad a bit this December, so it must be a bit better.

(And Samson hasn't played for us for a while. Roaster).

[Yodo]

4 minutes ago, weeyin said:

I was at the Accies game last December. We played an injured Carson and an injured Hartley. Moult, Cadden and Frear were out injured and Campbell limped off early in the first half.  We had no decent replacements for any of them. (Our keeper on the bench was Xenodochof - and we all remember how great he was).

We are actually rotating the squad a bit this December, so it must be a bit better.

(And Samson hasn't played for us for a while. Roaster).

Got me wee yin I always said you were a smart arse 

[Yodo]

On the bench that day were Grimshaw ,MacLean ,Livingstone ,Turnbull   Maguire , maybe if he had introduced some of those players at the end of the season or in the cup sections we might not have needed to sign some of the donkeys we have now 

[superward]

I think the overall 18 is on balance stronger. Some clearly not good enough, some are, some have been injured. Add in some first choice long term absentees and we are in a position where some of the players signed to make the bench better are now being asked to play in the first 11 and be deemed good enough for that by us the adoring fans... when probably they were signed to support that first 11 and perhaps gradually make it into the team. 

[DEWELL]

Can one of the statistician people who post on here please put up Robinson's record after we get pumped by St. Johnstone and Celtic in our next 2 games . The fans need to see just how bad a manager he's been for us. I'd bet our league record the past 2 seasons is up there with McGee and Malpas. Robinson out......

[superward]

Ya Bezzer will oblige I'm sure.

[Yassin]

2 hours ago, weeyin said:

I was at the Accies game last December. We played an injured Carson and an injured Hartley. Moult, Cadden and Frear were out injured and Campbell limped off early in the first half.  We had no decent replacements for any of them. (Our keeper on the bench was Xenodochof - and we all remember how great he was).

We are actually rotating the squad a bit this December, so it must be a bit better.

(And Samson hasn't played for us for a while. Roaster).

We lost 1-0 at Tynecastle a year ago tomorrow. #progress

[Yorkyred]

5 hours ago, Yodo said:

Prefer to call them critics who don't necessarily believe the manager gets everything right .Got to ask if we are struggling for personnel where are the managers signings 12-18 which was supposed to strengthen our pool 

At least half of them have already played this season.

[grizzlyg]

To be fair he is consistent at making us inconsistent!!!.......not calling for his head but he has created his own problems..... moans about having to sell players to raise cash but he has had a lot of money to spend and overall hasn't spent well

[Ya Bezzer!]

4 hours ago, DEWELL said:

Can one of the statistician people who post on here please put up Robinson's record after we get pumped by St. Johnstone and Celtic in our next 2 games . The fans need to see just how bad a manager he's been for us. I'd bet our league record the past 2 seasons is up there with McGee and Malpas. Robinson out......

Think it would be a bit unfair to include predicted results.

4 hours ago, superward said:

Ya Bezzer will oblige I'm sure.

Of course I will!

Stats for last 5 managers, ie, all the managers that we've had since the turn of the decade.

Win percentage of last 30 league matches

Craig Brown - 43.3%

Stuart McCall - 36.6%

Ian Barraclough - 30.0%

Steve Robinson - 30.0%

Mark McGhee - 23.3%

Perhaps ought to bare in mind Craig Brown, Stuart McCall and Mark McGhee had top 6 finishes within their 30 matches, whereas Barraclough and Robinson had/have bottom 6 matches.

 

Overall win percentage

Craig Brown - 45.7%

Stuart McCall - 44.5%

Mark McGhee - 33% (2nd spell only)

Steve Robinson - 31.8%

Ian Barraclough - 30%

[Gadgey]

If Brexit means Brexit.....does Robinson out mean Robinson out?

[Kmcalpin]

Just now, Gadgey said:

If Brexit means Brexit.....does Robinson out mean Robinson out?

It means leaving his post but continuing to be paid and continuing to carry out parts of his job. 

[Andy_P]

My current view of Robinson is that I really don't know where I stand with him.

 

Just when I think his time is up we'll come up with an Aberdeen or Celtic result but then just as quickly I find my morale sapped with missed opportunities.

 

Just when I think we're beginning to work towards the evolvement of style of play he'll take a hissy fit and talk about being forced to play too many footballers.

 

Just when I think there is a considered plan about introducing youngsters there's remarks attributed to him like the ones about Livingstone's fitness leading you to suspect he's not all that convinced about our youths.

 

Current league position? It isn't where I'd want us to be but in the context of supporting Motherwell across my lifetime a 'Well side sitting relatively safe three or four places off the bottom coming towards the turn of the year is by no means the worst I've seen.

 

Looking forward accruing points at the current rate we should hopefully be OK. There's no guarantee it will remain the case but the bottom three do rather helpfully appear to be adept at taking points of one another meaning if we keep ticking over we should remain clear if danger.

 

If that is the case it presents Robinson with an opportunity to do exactly as he has suggested recently to freshen the side up with youth. Ya Bezzer for one, having queried why he didn't do the same last season in an even stronger position, will I'm sure be sceptical but I think even if results do continue in a frustrating inconsistent manner, it will be more tolerable if we know that it it's going to be beneficial in the longer term for those youngsters involved.

 

The January transfer window will be interesting. It's obviously fair to say some signings haven't worked out as hoped thus far and there's apprehension from some that they don't want Robinson handed more of the budget to use but by the same token I welcome the fact that if he has acknowledged that if some he has brought in are the wrong fit then better that be addressed sooner rather than later.

 

I suppose I really I hold much the same hopes as I did back before the season started. An easier on the eye style of play, a greater proportion of youth players involved in the team with a view to their permanent inclusion if good enough and hopefully another good run in the Cup. If we get that then and steer clear of the bottom two then there will be something to take from the season.

 

If we continue in the vein of frustrating losses when often the football isn't great and youngsters have been overlooked it's difficult to see how the optimism from last year that lead us to getting these near record season ticket sales can be recaptured.

 

 

 

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 hour ago, Andy_P said:

If that is the case it presents Robinson with an opportunity to do exactly as he has suggested recently to freshen the side up with youth. Ya Bezzer for one, having queried why he didn't do the same last season in an even stronger position, will I'm sure be sceptical but I think even if results do continue in a frustrating inconsistent manner, it will be more tolerable if we know that it it's going to be beneficial in the longer term for those youngsters involved

Although some will disagree I am actually a fair man.  Hell, I even stood up for Robinson after the Livingston match.

I've actually been slightly heartened recently that Turnbull is now in the team and that guys like Mbulu, Maguire, Livingston and Scott are now, finally, making the odd appearance.  Of course they need more appearances, for instance I think now is the time to put Scott ahead of Bowman on the 'off the bench' roster, as Bowman had another ineffective introduction today, and they should have played more before now.   Fingers crossed on that.  

Also our form over say, the last 8 matches or so, is by no means the worst it's been under Robinson.  We were actually MUCH worse for long spells last season but of course we were in the cup so all was forgiven by most of our support.  Remember last seasons 2 wins in 15 matches?  Well, perhaps, but it didn't seem to register with too many.  Certainly makes our 4 wins in 16 matches this term look a bit better.

And for me that is really the interesting thing here.  I've been a long standing critic of Robinson, even when we were in relatively good form because I had the foresight to see that that style of football was not going to be successful long term.  However it seems to me that the antagonism towards Robinson has risen sharply this season when to all extents and purposes our form is no worse than last season and, in fact, has actually improved slightly.  What's the difference?  Well, it has to be the lack of a cup run.  Is that actually a fairer way to judge the manager than the criteria that I've pretty consistently stuck to?

Anyway, now my foresight is telling me we cannot go on with a revolving door of low quality lower league/non league players coming in and out of the club every couple of seasons and expect anything more than...well...what we have now.   Sure there will be some good ones.  Louie Moult is one of my favourite ever players and I'm in my 4th decade of supporting this team.  But overall the standard of player has to improve if we are going to improve as a club and since it's difficult to bring them to the club it stands to reason that we have to produce them.

So Robinson can win my support any time he likes by having a forward looking vision centered around youth and a modern style of football, I have absolutely nothing personal against him, it's just a disagreement in strategy.  And given that we've given the route one/percentage football a pretty decent whack and not really got anywhere with it, I think things are ripe for change. 

I actually hope Robinson can transform himself and his philosophy, because otherwise it's bad for everyone, especially supporters like me that actually go to every match.   Whether I'm confident that he will is a different story.

 

[underboyleheating]

I often wonder how Tommy Wright would do at Motherwell if he was our manger. He appears to perform miracles at St. Johnstone year in year out on a similar budget to ours,

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

8 hours ago, underboyleheating said:

I often wonder how Tommy Wright would do at Motherwell if he was our manger. He appears to perform miracles at St. Johnstone year in year out on a similar budget to ours,

 

Tommy Wright, in the main, recruits local players that know this level of football. 

It seems to me our support reacts better to bringing in unknowns and hoping or imagining they are better than they are.   I don't think there would have been a very good reaction on here if we had signed Ricky Foster, or Ross Callachan or Liam Craig.

In fact if you look at the squads of the three over performing sides in the league - Livingston, St. Johnstone, Kilmarnock, those sides are the ones with the most Scottish players.  Contrast with the 'foreign' legions at Dundee, Hamilton, ourselves or even St. Mirren.  

That might be a coincidence....but it may also say something about where you recruit your players.

[Kmcalpin]

11 hours ago, underboyleheating said:

I often wonder how Tommy Wright would do at Motherwell if he was our manger. He appears to perform miracles at St. Johnstone year in year out on a similar budget to ours,

Our fans wouldn't like his brand of football or his reluctance to use bring young players on . He has done very well at St Johnstone and built solid teams.  Not great to watch, not exciting but they're competitive,  consistent, physical, streetwise, experienced and don't make many mistakes.  He likes players with a combative and abrasive attitude like your Murray Davidsons, Liam Craigs and Paul Patons.  Not making mistakes is his trademark.  In our league that will guarantee you a mid table slot.  He's not great at bringing young players on.  

For some years now St Johnstone have paid higher wages than us (not by a huge amount) despite having smaller crowds.  I'd like to know how they balance the books. 

[Welldaft Mk1]

1 hour ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Tommy Wright, in the main, recruits local players that know this level of football. 

It seems to me our support reacts better to bringing in unknowns and hoping or imagining they are better than they are.   I don't think there would have been a very good reaction on here if we had signed Ricky Foster, or Ross Callachan or Liam Craig.

In fact if you look at the squads of the three over performing sides in the league - Livingston, St. Johnstone, Kilmarnock, those sides are the ones with the most Scottish players.  Contrast with the 'foreign' legions at Dundee, Hamilton, ourselves or even St. Mirren.  

That might be a coincidence....but it may also say something about where you recruit your players.

You should restrict yourself to posting late at night...clearly you are more level headed and fair minded :-)

I am not sure where you get the idea that our support prefers unknowns to solid Scottish talent. I for one would have been happy to take Ross Callaghan on board.  It does appear as if St Johnstone as an example have on many occasions recently bettered the wages we offered to some targets. Kilmarnock are documented as paying as much as 30% higher wages than us. 

The only team that are performing better than us based on budget are Livingston. Conversely Dundee have a similar average wage to Killie and are arguably underperforming. 

The stats on win % are interesting but it is worth noting that I suspect that both McGhee and McCall had a much larger budget and average wage to work with than Robinson does. 

The reality is that as a fan owned club we should only be paying wages we can afford. That means that for the foreseeable future we will be more involved in bottom half battles than top half. 

At home we have drawn with Rangers and Celtic and comfortably beaten Aberdeen. We have also been very unlucky not to take anything from games v Hearts and St Johnstone. 

Fans get frustrated when we lose games but I think Robinson has done a decent enough job. I think our frustrations and certainly mine stem from the fact that when we narrowly lose a game, we can reflect that with a little bit more effort and concentration we could have taken something. Yesterday a case in point. Nothing really between the sides for the most part but we concede another soft goal. A nothing header that lands in our net. 

I am confident we have enough about the squad to avoid bottom 2 spots, but we will not be far away from them all season and we will continue to have one decent result followed by one or two shit ones. 

 

 

[stuwell]

11 hours ago, Kmcalpin said:

Our fans wouldn't like his brand of football or his reluctance to use bring young players on . He has done very well at St Johnstone and built solid teams.  Not great to watch, not exciting but they're competitive,  consistent, physical, streetwise, experienced and don't make many mistakes.  He likes players with a combative and abrasive attitude like your Murray Davidsons, Liam Craigs and Paul Patons.  Not making mistakes is his trademark.  In our league that will guarantee you a mid table slot.  He's not great at bringing young players on.  

For some years now St Johnstone have paid higher wages than us (not by a huge amount) despite having smaller crowds.  I'd like to know how they balance the books. 

Their budget seems to me to be focused on buying experienced players that they get a low return on for transfers -with one or two exceptions ie Steve May- which is ok if you have a continual sponsorship income from a firm owned by your club owner but we don’t have that luxury and need to gamble on younger inexperienced players who we hope to develop and sell on to keep us in the league. 

[Yassin]

We finished above St Johnstone last year tbf

[Ya Bezzer!]

On 12/9/2018 at 10:15 AM, Kmcalpin said:

Our fans wouldn't like his brand of football or his reluctance to use bring young players on . He has done very well at St Johnstone and built solid teams.  Not great to watch, not exciting but they're competitive,  consistent, physical, streetwise, experienced and don't make many mistakes.  He likes players with a combative and abrasive attitude like your Murray Davidsons, Liam Craigs and Paul Patons.  Not making mistakes is his trademark.  In our league that will guarantee you a mid table slot.  He's not great at bringing young players on.  

For some years now St Johnstone have paid higher wages than us (not by a huge amount) despite having smaller crowds.  I'd like to know how they balance the books. 

On the first paragraph I'd pretty much agree with everything you say, except you could also describe Robinson in broadly similar terms (mistakes excluded!) and he wins a lot less often and doesn't finish Top 6.

Personally I think the current crop of coaches in our league are highly retrogressive and contribute hugely to the poor standard - McInnes, Levein, Wright,  etc. - it's football from a bygone age and we need a massive injection of technical and tactical modernity right across Scottish football.

As for wages, St. Johnstone are very prudently run.  Any difference is probably down to not paying off significant debt like we are, and of course higher league finishes over a number of years brings in more money - the difference between 5th and 8th is hundreds of thousands of pounds.