Robinson... How Do We Think He's Doing ?

[ropy]

I think managers should stick around for 10 years through the good times and bad.  We cannot keep doing the stuff that doesn’t work, we need to change it a bit like we have done before.

[mfc]

It almost feels like it's sink or swim time already for robinson,stick to what we have been doing and we will be in serious trouble,the fact we haven't scored in 4 out of 5 games so far is a real concern and add in the opposition that we've played and it makes it look even worse.i doubt there will be any money left to bring in yet another striker so we should be actively looking to move some attacking players on to free up some wages and if that's players that have just arrived or signed new deals or whatever then so be it,if there not doing it then show them the door.our forward line is a mess,we have wide men that can't beat there man or even put half decents balls into the box on a consistent basis,we have no one that can hold the ball up or run in behind,we seem to have tried pretty much every combination with our forward line so far and yet we keep saying the same results.i like robbo but he has no choice but to try something different as this formation right now is killing us.our confidence looks absolutely shot,anything other than a win on thursday is unthinkable.

[Andy_P]

1 hour ago, grizzlyg said:

I feel questions need to be asked about our scouting setup and also our youth academy,  if there are no youngsters ready to step up then questions should be asked as to why.  Over past 2-3 years how many have been promoted?.....about 4 I reckon which is very poor.

Campbell, Turnbull, Hastie, Scott and Maguire are all Scotland U21 internationalists that have played for Motherwell over the last two years. That's five alone.

McKinstry and McAlear have been snapped up by an English Premiership side and one that twelve months down the line was. They are two of the players that would likely be added to that list.

Off the top of my head, and whilst their numbers may have been limited Livingstone, Devine, Cornelius, MacLean and Semple have all come through the youth system and played in the first team over the last two or three years.

The players that have come through the Academy and played over the last three years could quite conceivably generate something like £10,000,000 in tranfers and add-ons.

I think your constant banging the drum for youth development is noble but you are miles out in terms of what has already been delivered by the Academy and to repeat my response when you made much the same point a week ago, I think it is unrealistic bordering on the naive to expect eleven youth team players who are first team ready to slot in at a moments notice.

[Shaka]

9 minutes ago, mfc said:

It almost feels like it's sink or swim time already for robinson,stick to what we have been doing and we will be in serious trouble,the fact we haven't scored in 4 out of 5 games so far is a real concern and add in the opposition that we've played and it makes it look even worse.i doubt there will be any money left to bring in yet another striker so we should be actively looking to move some attacking players on to free up some wages and if that's players that have just arrived or signed new deals or whatever then so be it,if there not doing it then show them the door.our forward line is a mess,we have wide men that can't beat there man or even put half decents balls into the box on a consistent basis,we have no one that can hold the ball up or run in behind,we seem to have tried pretty much every combination with our forward line so far and yet we keep saying the same results.i like robbo but he has no choice but to try something different as this formation right now is killing us.our confidence looks absolutely shot,anything other than a win on thursday is unthinkable.

Aye cause in this climate, someone we have just given a contract to is gonna agree to cancel it! And who is gonna come in for a player so poor they would struggle in part time leagues? 

We have what we have, until we sell Turnbull and then Robinson is given yet more fucking money to sign an english non league player from the north east who can "play across the front three"

[mfc]

7 minutes ago, Shaka said:

Aye cause in this climate, someone we have just given a contract to is gonna agree to cancel it! And who is gonna come in for a player so poor they would struggle in part time leagues? 

We have what we have, until we sell Turnbull and then Robinson is given yet more fucking money to sign an english non league player from the north east who can "play across the front three"

I'm not saying just cancel contracts,i wish we could with some of the shite we have right now,we should be making players available and telling there agents to try and get them something elsewhere but sadly i think we're stuck with what we have as i can't even see lower league teams down south willing to take any off our hands.we seemed to be in a hurry to get our business done early this summer and it looks like it's backfired big time.

[Shaka]

21 minutes ago, mfc said:

I'm not saying just cancel contracts,i wish we could with some of the shite we have right now,we should be making players available and telling there agents to try and get them something elsewhere but sadly i think we're stuck with what we have as i can't even see lower league teams down south willing to take any off our hands.we seemed to be in a hurry to get our business done early this summer and it looks like it's backfired big time.

I was being sarcastic, not having a go. And you are bang on, even if we made players available, nobody is coming in for them

[Jack]

4 hours ago, Stu92 said:

We’re not playing bad. We’re dominating games. Questions need to be asked just as much of the forwards as they do of the manager. 

Did we actually create any clear cut chances, its so easy to blame the forwards but lets face it Tunrbull was shooting on sight but still didnt score, he didnt pass a through ball from what I could see from highlights.

We are leaving a player on the bench in Polworth who had the most assits in our team last year.

Sad state of affairs.

The buck stops with Robinson and comments in the past week or so and tonight leads me to believe he will lose the dressing room very soon if not already.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Jack

[Ya Bezzer!]

40 minutes ago, Andy_P said:

Campbell, Turnbull, Hastie, Scott and Maguire are all Scotland U21 internationalists that have played for Motherwell over the last two years. That's five alone.

McKinstry and McAlear have been snapped up by an English Premiership side and one that twelve months down the line was. They are two of the players that would likely be added to that list.

Off the top of my head, and whilst their numbers may have been limited Livingstone, Devine, Cornelius, MacLean and Semple have all come through the youth system and played in the first team over the last two or three years.

The players that have come through the Academy and played over the last three years could quite conceivably generate something like £10,000,000 in tranfers and add-ons.

I think your constant banging the drum for youth development is noble but you are miles out in terms of what has already been delivered by the Academy and to repeat my response when you made much the same point a week ago, I think it is unrealistic bordering on the naive to expect eleven youth team players who are first team ready to slot in at a moments notice.

There is some truth to what you are saying but Maguire is basically wasting his career at Motherwell through lack of opportunity, Scott and Turnbull should have been playing far earlier than they did and Hastie kicked around for something like three years between his debut and getting another minute on the park.

As for Semple, it's over a year since he last made an appearance.

And Livingstone, Devine, Cornelius and McLean? You could add up their minutes on a very small postage stamp.

Given that virtually everything in the Robinson era that was any good came from our youth development system and that it's clear that we can produce much better quality players, for the most part, than we can bring in to the club then the youth system should be absolutely central to our mission as a club.  Yet despite  the emergence of guys like Turnbull, Scott etc, I don't think it is.

And not all youth players have to be as good as Turnbull and Scott.  They just need to be at as good, if not a little better, than the dross we import into the club from English lower and non league level.

 

[Big Wispy Flossy]

Robinson’s done a decent job, anybody who says otherwise is blinded. However, that said, he’s currently set us up to be the most predictable powder puff team in the league with a bloated array of substandard forwards.  I can’t see an obvious way of getting a tune out of those forwards without maybe going a bit more direct and that won’t be universally well received.

Defeat on Thursday can mean nothing other than the end of his tenure

[Jack]

1 hour ago, mfc said:

It almost feels like it's sink or swim time already for robinson,stick to what we have been doing and we will be in serious trouble,the fact we haven't scored in 4 out of 5 games so far is a real concern and add in the opposition that we've played and it makes it look even worse.i doubt there will be any money left to bring in yet another striker so we should be actively looking to move some attacking players on to free up some wages and if that's players that have just arrived or signed new deals or whatever then so be it,if there not doing it then show them the door.our forward line is a mess,we have wide men that can't beat there man or even put half decents balls into the box on a consistent basis,we have no one that can hold the ball up or run in behind,we seem to have tried pretty much every combination with our forward line so far and yet we keep saying the same results.i like robbo but he has no choice but to try something different as this formation right now is killing us.our confidence looks absolutely shot,anything other than a win on thursday is unthinkable.

Agree win at all costs mate

[Big Wispy Flossy]

3 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

There is some truth to what you are saying but Maguire is basically wasting his career at Motherwell through lack of opportunity, Scott and Turnbull should have been playing far earlier than they did and Hastie kicked around for something like three years between his debut and getting another minute on the park.

As for Semple, it's over a year since he last made an appearance.

And Livingstone, Devine, Cornelius and McLean? You could add up their minutes on a very small postage stamp.

Given that virtually everything in the Robinson era that was any good came from our youth development system and that it's clear that we can produce much better quality players, for the most part, than we can bring in to the club then the youth system should be absolutely central to our mission as a club.  Yet despite  the emergence of guys like Turnbull, Scott etc, I don't think it is.

And not all youth players have to be as good as Turnbull and Scott.  They just need to be at as good, if not a little better, than the dross we import into the club from English lower and non league level.

 

Listen I’m all for beating the drum about developing youth, but we can’t magically turn some into first team regulars. The likes of Maclean Livingstone Maguire have been found wanting at a level far below Motherwell so don’t think that’s a stick you can beat Robinson with. Senple will never make it either unfortunately. The success rate across the board is less than a couple of percent, we have done pretty well in this regard. 

[Andy_P]

9 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

There is some truth to what you are saying but Maguire is basically wasting his career at Motherwell through lack of opportunity, Scott and Turnbull should have been playing far earlier than they did and Hastie kicked around for something like three years between his debut and getting another minute on the park.

As for Semple, it's over a year since he last made an appearance.

And Livingstone, Devine, Cornelius and McLean? You could add up their minutes on a very small postage stamp.

Given that virtually everything in the Robinson era that was any good came from our youth development system and that it's clear that we can produce much better quality players, for the most part, than we can bring in to the club then the youth system should be absolutely central to our mission as a club.  Yet despite  the emergence of guys like Turnbull, Scott etc, I don't think it is.

And not all youth players have to be as good as Turnbull and Scott.  They just need to be at as good, if not a little better, than the dross we import into the club from English lower and non league level.

 

I would certainly wouldn't disagree with you, or indeed Grizzly, in terms of the importance of the Academy in the recent past or currently.  I couldn't agree though that a return which is likely to net us sums could be construed as "poor" however.

I'm also you with 100% on the calibre of players coming through. I've long been an advocate of the "Fitzpatrick" type players. Guys that are by no means world beaters but play a part for a few seasons, get 80 or 90 games before being usurped by the next set of graduates or a new signing.

The only thing I'd add is that we surely all know why there was and remains a focus on the lower end of the English market. Whether the failure of the Turnbull sale and the Covid-19 situation has meant that the balance on shifting further towards the Academy structure rather than recruitment is more belated than it might have been, I don't know, but I don't get the sense there isn't the same desire to develop our own.

 

 

[Ya Bezzer!]

9 minutes ago, Big Wispy Flossy said:

Listen I’m all for beating the drum about developing youth, but we can’t magically turn some into first team regulars. The likes of Maclean Livingstone Maguire have been found wanting at a level far below Motherwell so don’t think that’s a stick you can beat Robinson with. Senple will never make it either unfortunately. The success rate across the board is less than a couple of percent, we have done pretty well in this regard. 

First of all the whole idea that because a player didn't make it at a certain level at a certain time in his career means he couldn't make it at a different level at a different time in his career is completely invalid.

It makes no sense whatsoever, has been proved wrong literally a myriad of times and yet is trotted out time and time again.  

Secondly it used to be that players were developed in the first team and grew as players over a period of time.  These days youth players only really get a chance if they prove themselves immediately as substantially better than first teamers.

You don't see players being brought through like a Jamie Murphy or Paul Quinn or an even an Ally Maxwell or Dougie Arnott where  perhaps they didn't have a huge influence on the team immediately but were given 2 or 3 seasons exposure to eventually become the players they were.

Youth players are judged immediately and don't really get developed any longer at first team level.

 

[Big Wispy Flossy]

3 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

First of all the whole idea that because a player didn't make it at a certain level at a certain time in his career means he couldn't make it at a different level at a different time in his career is completely invalid.

It makes no sense whatsoever, has been proved wrong literally a myriad of times and yet is trotted out time and time again.  

Secondly it used to be that players were developed in the first team and grew as players over a period of time.  These days youth players only really get a chance if they prove themselves immediately as substantially better than first teamers.

You don't see players being brought through like a Jamie Murphy or Paul Quinn or an even an Ally Maxwell or Dougie Arnott where  perhaps they didn't have a huge influence on the team immediately but were given 2 or 3 seasons exposure to eventually become the players they were.

Youth players are judged immediately and don't really get developed any longer at first team level.

 

So you want to play them for the sake of it, whether they are ready, good enough or not?

[grizzlyg]

1 hour ago, Andy_P said:

Campbell, Turnbull, Hastie, Scott and Maguire are all Scotland U21 internationalists that have played for Motherwell over the last two years. That's five alone.

McKinstry and McAlear have been snapped up by an English Premiership side and one that twelve months down the line was. They are two of the players that would likely be added to that list.

Off the top of my head, and whilst their numbers may have been limited Livingstone, Devine, Cornelius, MacLean and Semple have all come through the youth system and played in the first team over the last two or three years.

The players that have come through the Academy and played over the last three years could quite conceivably generate something like £10,000,000 in tranfers and add-ons.

I think your constant banging the drum for youth development is noble but you are miles out in terms of what has already been delivered by the Academy and to repeat my response when you made much the same point a week ago, I think it is unrealistic bordering on the naive to expect eleven youth team players who are first team ready to slot in at a moments notice.

Totally respect your opinion Andy as always.  Yes McKinstry and McLear sold before we could see him which I understand fully. I just feel now that the emphasis is to look at english lower leagues which isnt working these days

 Again all about opinions buddy.  COYW 

[grizzlyg]

2 hours ago, Big Stall said:

The youths that would have been ready were purchased by Leeds and Rangers i believe. Not much we can do when a bigger club comes in offering 6figure? Sums for school weans.

As I said to Andy, respect your opinion buddy

[Lobey_Dosser]

Just caught up with Robinson’s post match interview with the BBC. His concluding comment to Jane Lewis, regarding finding someone to instil desire in his forwards, would suggest to me that he is contemplating his future. Not the ideal prep for a European game.

[Welldaft Mk1]

12 minutes ago, Lobey_Dosser said:

Just caught up with Robinson’s post match interview with the BBC. His concluding comment to Jane Lewis, regarding finding someone to instil desire in his forwards, would suggest to me that he is contemplating his future. Not the ideal prep for a European game.

Lose to Glentoran and he should fall on his sword.

That said this is a Manager that helped us avoid relegation when he took over. Got us to 2 cup finals in a season for only the second time in our entire history. Got us finishing 3rd when there were 4 or 5 teams with bigger budgets. 

No one argued much when we retained Watt and re-signed Long. Bringing back Hastie seemed like a decent option. And White for all he has been average was ICT top goalscorer for a couple of seasons. 

I am not ashamed to admit I am a big Robbo fan. I think he as done a good job up until this year. 

I would be sorry to see him go but the forward players need to understand they are in the last chance saloon. No-one underperforming for us will get a better move.

I know it is a parallel universes but I see some goals being scored / conceded and we have not had that kind of luck. Shots bouncing around and going in of a deflection or own goal. We have carried fuck all luck. Yes you make your own but not much has gone in our favour so far. 

 

[Yorkyred]

2 minutes ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

Lose to Glentoran and he should fall on his sword.

That said this is a Manager that helped us avoid relegation when he took over. Got us to 2 cup finals in a season for only the second time in our entire history. Got us finishing 3rd when there were 4 or 5 teams with bigger budgets. 

No one argued much when we retained Watt and re-signed Long. Bringing back Hastie seemed like a decent option. And White for all he has been average was ICT top goalscorer for a couple of seasons. 

I am not ashamed to admit I am a big Robbo fan. I think he as done a good job up until this year. 

I would be sorry to see him go but the forward players need to understand they are in the last chance saloon. No-one underperforming for us will get a better move.

I know it is a parallel universes but I see some goals being scored / conceded and we have not had that kind of luck. Shots bouncing around and going in of a deflection or own goal. We have carried fuck all luck. Yes you make your own but not much has gone in our favour so far. 

 

Hindsight is certainly a wonderful thing and without looking back through threads I think the majority on here thought we had more than enough up front. On paper we had goals, it’s just not panned out that way. I  certainly did not expect Hastie to be as poor as he has been and Watt looked to be improving along with Long.

[Stu92]

1 hour ago, Yorkyred said:

Hindsight is certainly a wonderful thing and without looking back through threads I think the majority on here thought we had more than enough up front. On paper we had goals, it’s just not panned out that way. I  certainly did not expect Hastie to be as poor as he has been and Watt looked to be improving along with Long.

I thought Hastie had been sussed before he left for Rangers and so was not thrilled about him coming back from a purely footballing point of view. That aside, we certainly should have enough fire power at the top end between Long, Lang, Watt, White, Seedorf & Hylton. I know there are many critics of them on these boards, but they are all decent players in their own right that should be doing better than they currently are. Be it confidence, effort, urgency or something else that is stopping us from performing and scoring goals, I still think we’ll come good eventually. 

[Kmcalpin]

1 hour ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

Lose to Glentoran and he should fall on his sword.

Almost certainly, you're right Iain. On paper we're a stronger side than last season, especially as David Turnbull is returning. Our striking options looked good on paper. Like most folk, I was optimistic before the first ball was kicked. However, something somewhere has gone wrong and badly wrong. We had a poor end to last season, our pre season was poor and our results so far this campaign have been shocking. Certainly injuries haven't helped. 

We are too predictable, and although we have pace in the side we aren't using it, opting instead for a more patient build through the middle. Comparisons with Stuart McCall's last season are alarming (Handsome Devil, Fir Park Corner).  Has Robbo run out of ideas? Whatever the reason behind our poor form, we can't simply write off as being one of those things. He has some credit left in the bank for finishing 3rd last year and reaching 2 finals a few years ago but that is now evaporating quickly.

[middleeastdave]

I hope he takes a look at his record for all of 2020 we have played 17 competitive games including Scottish cup games and we have managed THREE victory’s, I am sorry to say that’s not good enough SR.

[Shaka]

FFS how long does he get to live off of "2 Cup Finals" , we got horsed in both games! We won fuck all, not even sure we had a single shot on target! The only thing we got from those games was a day on the piss for the fans and an up close chance to see Celtic lift a trophy. People forget that in that season the only thing that stopped us getting relegated was a very unusual (for us) fast start! From November onwards we were the worst team in the SPL!

The following season we were an embarrassment, until He was forced into playing Hastie & Turnbull and got lucky with the impact of both. Last season was great for his CV with a 3rd place finish, but anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that was false. If the season had finished instead of being cut short we wouldve been 6th, 5th at a push. Still decent but doesnt make him some kind of messiah!

We now are on a run of 2 wins in 14 matches, no wins in 5 this season so far. And thats 14 matches where we havent played Rangers or Celtic, and only played Aberdeen once! That is absolutely shocking.

The fact is, we were on a terrible run, stopped for 5 months, in which time we recruited to the managers plan, and returned to find we are actually POORER than we were when we finished last season. The players dont look fit/sharp, dont look motivated, dont look at all organized and look like they have no actual idea what the manager wants......  and its everyone else's fault but his!

Steve Robinson has been an ok manager for us. Some highs, plenty lows, some decent signings and lashings of utter fucking dross. As with everything, chapters and projects come to an end, and I feel his chapter with us should be done. 

However, I maintain that what we need is a root and stem clear out, starting with Foyle! Its him that is apparently identifying and scouting this dross. Robbo and Lasley both need to go as well. Gk Coach and S&C coach should be looked at but Mo Ross could probably stay as he hasnt been  here long enough to be infected with the Robinson stench. We need a scout who knows the Scottish game inside out! The amount of talent that has gone south or to rivals from the divisions below the SPL is insane. As for Foyle? Inverness CT had the plan of scouting the English non league for players and got relegated for their trouble. We may find the odd gem, but we sign far too much shite

[Andy_P]

Gillespie, Tait, Carroll, Dunne, Hartley, Heneghan, Johnson,  McHugh, Moult, Main, Bowman. 

A conceivable eleven all signed from League One and below since a director of recruitment was installed to focus on those levels. That's not including Carson, Long, Frear etc. nor Kipre who came higher up from Leicester.  

Not world beating sure, but enough in there from those individuals to keep the team in the division, get to two Cup Finals that were not to mention any more because we didn't win, a third place finish that seemingly doesn't really count, and helped contribute towards the club moving to a debt free position. But aye, a lot of shite. Get rid of the Director of Recruitment. Don't look for players at that level any more. 

Can the recruitment be smarter? Absolutely.  Have there been bad signings? Definitely. But dismantling the whole set up is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's toys out the pram stuff. 

Here's another eleven. As signed by the  greatest modern day manager in Motherwell's recent history, some say. Took us to third too. Kept us in the division. Even won that Cup that thirty years later they still talk of. Still managed to sign every single one of this lot though along the way. 

Gardiner, Sneddon, Murray, Maaskant, Jones, Shanks, Caughey, McCabe, Baker, Shepstone, McLeod

 

[Haggischomper]

Shepstone. Fuck's sake. Thanks very much for that Andy. I'm off to greet for a while now.

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