Robinson... How Do We Think He's Doing ?

[Kmcalpin]

21 minutes ago, Winning by Name said:

I agree. How long is Donnelly out for?

According to the Sunday Mail, he's out for 5 months or thereabouts. Knee damage.

[Onthefringes]

45 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

He really is being played out of position.

Yes, he’s not on the substitute bench? Good players can play anywhere...

Not quite getting where he’s best placed.

[Shaka]

6 hours ago, Yorkyred said:

And these are the actual facts that need to be taken into account when any thought’s of letting Robinson go are taken into account. Forget the fact that a minority of fans have always wanted rid of him, he had a remit and he’s met it and some. I would question how many other manager’s that we could both tempt, and indeed afford could match that record with us on our budget. I’ve always been of the opinion that the grass is rarely greener on the other side and as such be careful what you wish for. He was wanted sacked by a few on here right back as far as 2017, Since then he’s guided is to two very comfortable seasons and we’ve made millions on players, no other club at our level can match that. He’s not perfect, no perfect manager would be managing Motherwell, they all have weaknesses, but he knows the club and is trusted at board level, on top of that he’s clearly a good man manager judging by the feedback of previous players and their recommendation to others to join us. Players have returned to us simply because of Robinson. I would agree with Kmac that the worst thing is doing nothing and I would take the option to now use some of the transfer money to sign a couple of players we might not otherwise be able to afford, I would retain Robinson as in my view he’s done enough to be given that opportunity. All managers have a sell by date but in my view that does not yet apply to Robinson.

Who has returned to us "simply because of Robinson"? Hastie came back cause he has his wedge from Rangers and probably fancies convenient games where he can stay at home, and Long came back cause nobody else wanted him! 

Robinson gets lauded for "bringing in millions in transfers" but in reality any manager of Motherwell would have brought in the same. Cadden, Turnbull, Hastie, Scott, McAlear, McKinstry were the cream of the crop in our academy, and apart from Cadds, who was established long before Robbo, the rest played less than 40 games for us combined so his developing of them was limited in the extreme. We are lead to believe this guy Foyle is a player scouting genius so Kipre wouldve most likely have been here  so what exactly has Robinson done to get us these millions of pounds apart from simply being here?

Its the same with the Cup Finals, as a club by fuck do we count "success" in the loosest terms. Releasing DVD's of the 25th anniverdary of winning the Scottish cup and celebrating getting pumped in cup finals. Since we last won a trophy Inverness, Ross County, Falkirk and Raith fucking Rovers have won silverware, 2 of those teams never even existed in 1991! It was a couple hundred grand extra in the bank and a day on the piss for the fans, thats about the success of them.

And as for league form, last seasons form is very relevant, because it was plain to see from January that we couldnt score in a brothel with a blank cheque, and were struggling badly. Since then we have had a transfer window where the club have backed the manager and brought in several players and if anything we are WORSE now! We now cant score AND are guaranteed to chuck at least one in at our end every single game. 

I swear we could be down in the Championship next season having not won a game in 6 and there would STILL be people on here saying "aye but he got us to 2 cup finals 4 year ago, give him time!"

[Yorkyred]

14 minutes ago, Shaka said:

Who has returned to us "simply because of Robinson"? Hastie came back cause he has his wedge from Rangers and probably fancies convenient games where he can stay at home, and Long came back cause nobody else wanted him! 

Robinson gets lauded for "bringing in millions in transfers" but in reality any manager of Motherwell would have brought in the same. Cadden, Turnbull, Hastie, Scott, McAlear, McKinstry were the cream of the crop in our academy, and apart from Cadds, who was established long before Robbo, the rest played less than 40 games for us combined so his developing of them was limited in the extreme. We are lead to believe this guy Foyle is a player scouting genius so Kipre wouldve most likely have been here  so what exactly has Robinson done to get us these millions of pounds apart from simply being here?

Its the same with the Cup Finals, as a club by fuck do we count "success" in the loosest terms. Releasing DVD's of the 25th anniverdary of winning the Scottish cup and celebrating getting pumped in cup finals. Since we last won a trophy Inverness, Ross County, Falkirk and Raith fucking Rovers have won silverware, 2 of those teams never even existed in 1991! It was a couple hundred grand extra in the bank and a day on the piss for the fans, thats about the success of them.

And as for league form, last seasons form is very relevant, because it was plain to see from January that we couldnt score in a brothel with a blank cheque, and were struggling badly. Since then we have had a transfer window where the club have backed the manager and brought in several players and if anything we are WORSE now! We now cant score AND are guaranteed to chuck at least one in at our end every single game. 

I swear we could be down in the Championship next season having not won a game in 6 and there would STILL be people on here saying "aye but he got us to 2 cup finals 4 year ago, give him time!"

I could counter just about everything but it would not change your opinion so I really don’t see the point. You would just swear a lot to prove you’re right.

[Yodo]

18 minutes ago, Shaka said:

Who has returned to us "simply because of Robinson"? Hastie came back cause he has his wedge from Rangers and probably fancies convenient games where he can stay at home, and Long came back cause nobody else wanted him! 

Robinson gets lauded for "bringing in millions in transfers" but in reality any manager of Motherwell would have brought in the same. Cadden, Turnbull, Hastie, Scott, McAlear, McKinstry were the cream of the crop in our academy, and apart from Cadds, who was established long before Robbo, the rest played less than 40 games for us combined so his developing of them was limited in the extreme. We are lead to believe this guy Foyle is a player scouting genius so Kipre wouldve most likely have been here  so what exactly has Robinson done to get us these millions of pounds apart from simply being here?

Its the same with the Cup Finals, as a club by fuck do we count "success" in the loosest terms. Releasing DVD's of the 25th anniverdary of winning the Scottish cup and celebrating getting pumped in cup finals. Since we last won a trophy Inverness, Ross County, Falkirk and Raith fucking Rovers have won silverware, 2 of those teams never even existed in 1991! It was a couple hundred grand extra in the bank and a day on the piss for the fans, thats about the success of them.

And as for league form, last seasons form is very relevant, because it was plain to see from January that we couldnt score in a brothel with a blank cheque, and were struggling badly. Since then we have had a transfer window where the club have backed the manager and brought in several players and if anything we are WORSE now! We now cant score AND are guaranteed to chuck at least one in at our end every single game. 

I swear we could be down in the Championship next season having not won a game in 6 and there would STILL be people on here saying "aye but he got us to 2 cup finals 4 year ago, give him time!"

Sums it up rather well 

[0Neils40yarder]

31 minutes ago, Yorkyred said:

I could counter just about everything but it would not change your opinion so I really don’t see the point. You would just swear a lot to prove you’re right.

Agreed...hes mostly typed a load of nonsense 

[Yodo]

2 hours ago, 0Neils40yarder said:

Agreed...hes mostly typed a load of nonsense 

Now now don't be so hard on Yorkie 

[Welldaft Mk1]

Are Shaka and Yodo one and the same.

I have come to the conclusion that Robinson pissed on their chips. 

Robinson is not exempt from criticism and failure to beat Coleraine and pick up a win in the league this next few weeks should see his tenure at Motherwell under extreme scrutiny.

But the failure to recognise his good work and positive contributions is petty in the extreme and utterly pathetic. 

[Shaka]

5 minutes ago, Welldaft Mk1 said:

Are Shaka and Yodo one and the same.

I have come to the conclusion that Robinson pissed on their chips. 

Robinson is not exempt from criticism and failure to beat Coleraine and pick up a win in the league this next few weeks should see his tenure at Motherwell under extreme scrutiny.

But the failure to recognise his good work and positive contributions is petty in the extreme and utterly pathetic. 

I have said many times, Robinson has done a decent job at Motherwell. I dont think anyone can argue against that! But its just that, a decent job. 

My gripe is that some folk have him as some kind of messiah or utterly immune from criticism because he led us to 2 cup finals 2 years ago. Football is a results driven business, and the simple fact is that our results for a long long time have been an utter embarrassment.

If we had improved even a little after a 5 month break and half a dozen new signings then I would cut him some slack but weve been utter shite this season. Yogi Hughes has been slaughtered on here and across other boards for his teams playing nice passes across the defence and midfield but having absolutely no cutting edge, but Steve Robinson doing it is just "unlucky" because he says we are dominating games. We are dominating fuck all! 

A manager at literally any other club in world football would be out of a job after not only 2 wins in 16 games but starting a season bottom of the table after 6 games with no wins and no goals scored in 5 of them........... but its ok, we will be fine in May, were too good to go down! Hearts, Caley & Dundee Utd fans all said that not so long ago too

[Al B]

I don't remember a post you've made where you weren't angrily ranting at absolutely nothing at all, or things that havent/might never happened.

I imagine you being at home like, "I just sat on the fucking couch! What if that couch hadn't been there! I'd have fell on the floor for fuck sake! But it's all fine though I'll just break my hip to go with the embarrassment of being the only house in the street without a couch."

[Electric Blues]

9 minutes ago, Al B said:

I don't remember a post you've made where you weren't angrily ranting at absolutely nothing at all, or things that havent/might never happened.

I imagine you being at home like, "I just sat on the fucking couch! What if that couch hadn't been there! I'd have fell on the floor for fuck sake! But it's all fine though I'll just break my hip to go with the embarrassment of being the only house in the street without a couch."

[Welldaft Mk1]

58 minutes ago, Shaka said:

I have said many times, Robinson has done a decent job at Motherwell. I dont think anyone can argue against that! But its just that, a decent job. 

My gripe is that some folk have him as some kind of messiah or utterly immune from criticism because he led us to 2 cup finals 2 years ago. Football is a results driven business, and the simple fact is that our results for a long long time have been an utter embarrassment.

If we had improved even a little after a 5 month break and half a dozen new signings then I would cut him some slack but weve been utter shite this season. Yogi Hughes has been slaughtered on here and across other boards for his teams playing nice passes across the defence and midfield but having absolutely no cutting edge, but Steve Robinson doing it is just "unlucky" because he says we are dominating games. We are dominating fuck all! 

A manager at literally any other club in world football would be out of a job after not only 2 wins in 16 games but starting a season bottom of the table after 6 games with no wins and no goals scored in 5 of them........... but its ok, we will be fine in May, were too good to go down! Hearts, Caley & Dundee Utd fans all said that not so long ago too

That again is utter bollox.

I am a fan of Robinson but he is simply not immune from criticism. What the majority of fans are doing is rightly giving him more time than most Managers at the same stage. Twice before he has turned our form around by luck or by judgement and again most would like to see him do the same again. 

What most fans also accept is that with one of the lowest budgets in the league we are bound to go through dips in form. 

I often think about Falkirk, Dunfermline and Partick. In many ways clubs of a similar size to us. Look where they are and where we could have been. 

Simply put you and Yodo and a few others think we have should always be top 6 and winning more than we r losing. We are the most successful provincial club of all time based on top flight league points. Good enough for me. 

 

[Lan_Lad]

The similarities to Hearts are striking. The Hearts fans spent a year blaming everything on Levein, it's Levein's fault, get him out and all will be well. They eventually got that wish, and nothing changed. Nothing but them  falling even further down the league.

It is a fact that the longer this type of form goes on the harder it's going to be to dig a way out of it. If a win isn't secured over St Johnstone it's unlikely to come in the next two.

Though in saying that I don't see Aberdeen as some sort of footballing superpower. It's more realistic that something could be taken from them even away from home than taking anything from either of the OF home or away. 

[Shaka]

8 hours ago, Al B said:

I don't remember a post you've made where you weren't angrily ranting at absolutely nothing at all, or things that havent/might never happened.

I imagine you being at home like, "I just sat on the fucking couch! What if that couch hadn't been there! I'd have fell on the floor for fuck sake! But it's all fine though I'll just break my hip to go with the embarrassment of being the only house in the street without a couch."

Quite the imagination 

Im not angry at all. I have an opinion and try to back it up with as much facts as I can. Id imagine an angry rant would be more along the lines of "Robinson is shite just cos! Sack the cunt" which I have never said. I did have a bit of a rant in the Turnbull thread, but again if you had bothered to read it I clearly said the deal we agreed was shocking IF it was indeed less than the amount we accepted last time. I am still of that opinion, the fee was "undisclosed", we will never know what we got so what is the harm in discussing it? Or is discussion not allowed here? 

Thats the thing, Ive put a post up and had the usual suspects just reply with "you talk shite" , "I could reply,but..." yet no actual constructive response. In regard to transfers, I asked what Robinson did that no other manager could possibly have done to get us fees for Cadden, McKinstry, McAlear, Hastie, Turnbull, Scott, Kipre? And in regard to league form, what has he done to improve us since we sold James Scott? 

But yeah, go on insinuating Im rampaging round the house in a fury so you can look cool with a smart comeback on an internet discussion forum 

[Great Balls of Shire]

22 minutes ago, Shaka said:

Quite the imagination 

Im not angry at all. I have an opinion and try to back it up with as much facts as I can. Id imagine an angry rant would be more along the lines of "Robinson is shite just cos! Sack the cunt" which I have never said. I did have a bit of a rant in the Turnbull thread, but again if you had bothered to read it I clearly said the deal we agreed was shocking IF it was indeed less than the amount we accepted last time. I am still of that opinion, the fee was "undisclosed", we will never know what we got so what is the harm in discussing it? Or is discussion not allowed here? 

Thats the thing, Ive put a post up and had the usual suspects just reply with "you talk shite" , "I could reply,but..." yet no actual constructive response. In regard to transfers, I asked what Robinson did that no other manager could possibly have done to get us fees for Cadden, McKinstry, McAlear, Hastie, Turnbull, Scott, Kipre? And in regard to league form, what has he done to improve us since we sold James Scott? 

But yeah, go on insinuating Im rampaging round the house in a fury so you can look cool with a smart comeback on an internet discussion forum 

So what’s your house really like?

[Great Balls of Shire]

7 hours ago, Lan_Lad said:

The similarities to Hearts are striking. The Hearts fans spent a year blaming everything on Levein, it's Levein's fault, get him out and all will be well. They eventually got that wish, and nothing changed. Nothing but them  falling even further down the league.

It is a fact that the longer this type of form goes on the harder it's going to be to dig a way out of it. If a win isn't secured over St Johnstone it's unlikely to come in the next two.

Though in saying that I don't see Aberdeen as some sort of footballing superpower. It's more realistic that something could be taken from them even away from home than taking anything from either of the OF home or away. 

If the season had finished , Hearts may have escaped relegation?

[Yodo]

34 minutes ago, Great Balls of Shire said:

If the season had finished , Hearts may have escaped relegation?

If the season had finished we may not have finished third ?

[Stu92]

8 hours ago, Lan_Lad said:

The similarities to Hearts are striking. The Hearts fans spent a year blaming everything on Levein, it's Levein's fault, get him out and all will be well. They eventually got that wish, and nothing changed. Nothing but them  falling even further down the league.

Other than a dip in form, the similarities are near enough non-existent. Hearts had much deeper lying issues, the majority of our fans still support  Robinson/the club.

[Al B]

1 hour ago, Shaka said:

Quite the imagination 

Im not angry at all. I have an opinion and try to back it up with as much facts as I can. Id imagine an angry rant would be more along the lines of "Robinson is shite just cos! Sack the cunt" which I have never said. I did have a bit of a rant in the Turnbull thread, but again if you had bothered to read it I clearly said the deal we agreed was shocking IF it was indeed less than the amount we accepted last time. I am still of that opinion, the fee was "undisclosed", we will never know what we got so what is the harm in discussing it? Or is discussion not allowed here? 

Thats the thing, Ive put a post up and had the usual suspects just reply with "you talk shite" , "I could reply,but..." yet no actual constructive response. In regard to transfers, I asked what Robinson did that no other manager could possibly have done to get us fees for Cadden, McKinstry, McAlear, Hastie, Turnbull, Scott, Kipre? And in regard to league form, what has he done to improve us since we sold James Scott? 

But yeah, go on insinuating Im rampaging round the house in a fury so you can look cool with a smart comeback on an internet discussion forum 

Clearly too smart for you to understand in that case.

It wasn't about "looking cool with a smart comeback on an internet discussion forum", and it wasn't literally imagining your home life.

It was taking the tone of your posting style and the type of scenario your posts address, and projecting it into a real life example in order to show how ridiculous they are when you put them in a relatable context.

For example, you just admitted you had a "bit of a rant" at something that you had no idea whether it even happened or not. And the fact that people notice, whether you agree with their criticism of you being constructive or not, shows that it's not the only example. The way you respond to random suggestions of player signings by posters who could be 12 years old, or 76 years old, or new to the game, or just don't know too much about football, or play too much Football Manager, as if they are actually happening or have been suggested by the club, with the tone of "if these are the type of players Robinson is looking at then i've had it its P45 time!!!!" (I'm paraphrasing...) is very weird to read.

I acknowledge that you are not one of the "Robinson is shite just cos!" band, and you do have your reasons for the things you are critical of, but the crux of the point I am making is that, more often than not...your reasons are things that either havent happened, won't likely be happening, or we have no idea if they happened.

And you will more than likely disagree with that, and believe that you don't come across in that way or don't have that tone, but you don't get to decide how you come across....that can only be determined by the reader, you merely get to decide the intent. So when lots of people who have no link to each other pick up on it, maybe you need to look at your posts with fresh eyes and see how you actually come across, as opposed to how you intend to come across.

There's your " actual constructive response".

[middleeastdave]

I am sorry if I started this debate about SR with my post comparing us against Hearts , I will be the first to stand up and admit I was wrong if he turns things around.

My main gripe is Robinson’s pre and post match comments which seems to be genuine and honest, he keeps on about a reaction after a defeat, well I am sorry the reaction in my opinion is not what anyone wants to see as you can tell by the results.

I think every so called Scottish football experts were forecasting us to have a better season than last season based on our new signings as I was as well, it appears to me that we have been let down by our players, but also we are playing players out of position due to injuries as we had last season as well, you might have thought SR would have learned from that but not many would have thought that 3 left wing backs would have been injured long term, so maybe my criticism is a bit over the top, but I would like us to give the old firm a game of it rather than just throw the towel in as happened on Sunday.

[Yorkyred]

3 hours ago, Shaka said:

Quite the imagination 

Im not angry at all. I have an opinion and try to back it up with as much facts as I can. Id imagine an angry rant would be more along the lines of "Robinson is shite just cos! Sack the cunt" which I have never said. I did have a bit of a rant in the Turnbull thread, but again if you had bothered to read it I clearly said the deal we agreed was shocking IF it was indeed less than the amount we accepted last time. I am still of that opinion, the fee was "undisclosed", we will never know what we got so what is the harm in discussing it? Or is discussion not allowed here? 

Thats the thing, Ive put a post up and had the usual suspects just reply with "you talk shite" , "I could reply,but..." yet no actual constructive response. In regard to transfers, I asked what Robinson did that no other manager could possibly have done to get us fees for Cadden, McKinstry, McAlear, Hastie, Turnbull, Scott, Kipre? And in regard to league form, what has he done to improve us since we sold James Scott? 

But yeah, go on insinuating Im rampaging round the house in a fury so you can look cool with a smart comeback on an internet discussion forum 

I think that’s probably the biggest issue I have with the post. Robinson has managed at the club since what 2017 ? Of course he’s had an influence in the further development of players including giving debuts in the first team while constantly managing that development, when they play, the expectations and pressure they are under, the support any young player need when they step up. In the case of Hastie when he went out on loan and to which club, other players have been loaned out over that period. We have no idea if the same level of success would have been achieved under another manager but we know Robinson achieved it and successfully brought those players through at a crucial time. Now I’ve never managed a Premiership team but I’m guessing it’s not that easy. I’m part of a three man management team in a project and we manage a team of 17 individuals, all have different personalities and just about all come with challenges at one time or another, the logistics of  running a project is easy, managing people is not, it’s never plain sailing. I can only imagine how difficult it is managing a group of highly paid individuals, all, trying to take each others place in the first 11 and many with inflated egos. 

[Stuwell2]

5 hours ago, Shaka said:

....... And in regard to league form, what has he done to improve us since we sold James Scott? .......

Since the club sold striker JS, off the top of my head, we’ve signed strikers Tony Watt and Callum Lang - does this not constitute an attempt to improve us? 

Looking at  them so far I’d say TW has underperformed (although I do believe he is a good player if he can get his act together) and CL has just arrived and should be allowed time to settle before deciding he’s not good enough. 

[Shaka]

6 hours ago, Al B said:

Clearly too smart for you to understand in that case.

It wasn't about "looking cool with a smart comeback on an internet discussion forum", and it wasn't literally imagining your home life.

It was taking the tone of your posting style and the type of scenario your posts address, and projecting it into a real life example in order to show how ridiculous they are when you put them in a relatable context.

For example, you just admitted you had a "bit of a rant" at something that you had no idea whether it even happened or not. And the fact that people notice, whether you agree with their criticism of you being constructive or not, shows that it's not the only example. The way you respond to random suggestions of player signings by posters who could be 12 years old, or 76 years old, or new to the game, or just don't know too much about football, or play too much Football Manager, as if they are actually happening or have been suggested by the club, with the tone of "if these are the type of players Robinson is looking at then i've had it its P45 time!!!!" (I'm paraphrasing...) is very weird to read.

I acknowledge that you are not one of the "Robinson is shite just cos!" band, and you do have your reasons for the things you are critical of, but the crux of the point I am making is that, more often than not...your reasons are things that either havent happened, won't likely be happening, or we have no idea if they happened.

And you will more than likely disagree with that, and believe that you don't come across in that way or don't have that tone, but you don't get to decide how you come across....that can only be determined by the reader, you merely get to decide the intent. So when lots of people who have no link to each other pick up on it, maybe you need to look at your posts with fresh eyes and see how you actually come across, as opposed to how you intend to come across.

There's your " actual constructive response".

I dont completely agree with all that you have said, but I will say the last paragraph or so is bang on. I am guilty of mixing the odd rant with some disingenuous comments and sarcasm without much care of how that comes across, so I do understand that while not intended, that may look worse when everything is looked at together. 

[Shaka]

4 hours ago, Yorkyred said:

I think that’s probably the biggest issue I have with the post. Robinson has managed at the club since what 2017 ? Of course he’s had an influence in the further development of players including giving debuts in the first team while constantly managing that development, when they play, the expectations and pressure they are under, the support any young player need when they step up. In the case of Hastie when he went out on loan and to which club, other players have been loaned out over that period. We have no idea if the same level of success would have been achieved under another manager but we know Robinson achieved it and successfully brought those players through at a crucial time. Now I’ve never managed a Premiership team but I’m guessing it’s not that easy. I’m part of a three man management team in a project and we manage a team of 17 individuals, all have different personalities and just about all come with challenges at one time or another, the logistics of  running a project is easy, managing people is not, it’s never plain sailing. I can only imagine how difficult it is managing a group of highly paid individuals, all, trying to take each others place in the first 11 and many with inflated egos. 

Im not saying its easy managing a football team. Ive done it for years at Amateur level and its a nightmare, I can only imagine how hard it would be to do it with a Professional team. 

With the transfers, McKinstry & McAleer never played in the first team and had been highly rated and scouted by clubs since they were 14-15. Turnbull and Scott were the 2 biggest prospects to come out of our Academy in 20 years, possibly ever! Hastie & Cadden are probably another argument, but overall I dont know what Robinson done with regard to these guys that any other manager wouldnt have done. The transfers are surely a Club triumph rather than success for one individual? I dont see Celtic fans lauding Neil Lennon because they sold Dembele & Tierney for £45m whilst he has been manager?!

Ive said it before and Il say again, I feel Robinson has done a decent job at Motherwell, but football is a results based business in the here and now. And the fact is that right now, he is doing a very poor job. We are bottom of the league, cant buy a goal and are throwing points away hand over fist. Im not even saying its all his fault! The players have to take responsibility as well, but the fact is, the Manager is the guy in charge and is the one who takes the fall.

Il not say anymore on this subject. Some will agree with my point of view, some wont. No point going round in circles.

[Yorkyred]

18 minutes ago, Shaka said:

Im not saying its easy managing a football team. Ive done it for years at Amateur level and its a nightmare, I can only imagine how hard it would be to do it with a Professional team. 

With the transfers, McKinstry & McAleer never played in the first team and had been highly rated and scouted by clubs since they were 14-15. Turnbull and Scott were the 2 biggest prospects to come out of our Academy in 20 years, possibly ever! Hastie & Cadden are probably another argument, but overall I dont know what Robinson done with regard to these guys that any other manager wouldnt have done. The transfers are surely a Club triumph rather than success for one individual? I dont see Celtic fans lauding Neil Lennon because they sold Dembele & Tierney for £45m whilst he has been manager?!

Ive said it before and Il say again, I feel Robinson has done a decent job at Motherwell, but football is a results based business in the here and now. And the fact is that right now, he is doing a very poor job. We are bottom of the league, cant buy a goal and are throwing points away hand over fist. Im not even saying its all his fault! The players have to take responsibility as well, but the fact is, the Manager is the guy in charge and is the one who takes the fall.

Il not say anymore on this subject. Some will agree with my point of view, some wont. No point going round in circles.

Fair enough.